scatsob 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Hello all, The title says it all. Having never owned or even shot a Saiga 12, I am looking for opinions on how good the 12 would be for home defence. Along with that, is how easily my wife would be able to operate it if I were away. I know she can handle a pump gun but I would rather get a 12, and I am only authorized to buy one or the other. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have always felt that the simpler you make an action in an emotionally charged situation, the better off everyone is. If my wife had to defend my house in my absence, I would take heart in the fact that she would only have to disengage the safety, rack a shell, and then pull the trigger till the thing doesn't fire any more rounds. Instead of saftey off, rack a round, fire, rack a round, fire, ect... To me it seems that the saiga 12 semi-auto would have the pump beat hands down for home defense. The only drawback might be the 10th round shell deformation that I have seen addressed in the threads. Another plus would be that the safety of the saiga is a large lever and not a push button, I know which one I would want to fumble around with in the dark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have always felt that the simpler you make an action in an emotionally charged situation, the better off everyone is. If my wife had to defend my house in my absence, I would take heart in the fact that she would only have to disengage the safety, rack a shell, and then pull the trigger till the thing doesn't fire any more rounds. Instead of saftey off, rack a round, fire, rack a round, fire, ect... To me it seems that the saiga 12 semi-auto would have the pump beat hands down for home defense. The only drawback might be the 10th round shell deformation that I have seen addressed in the threads. Another plus would be that the safety of the saiga is a large lever and not a push button, I know which one I would want to fumble around with in the dark Yep, that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I switched from pump to S-12 years ago Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Each has its advantages and disadvantages. I keep an old "stagecoach" gun next to the bed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shooter2 5 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I switched from pump to S-12 years ago As did I. My wife enjoys shooting my AKs, and the fact that our Saiga-12 house gun has a similar manual of arms makes life easier from a training perspective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joe Blasco 1 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Dear friend, 1. If your wife looks like a Kelvinator refrigerator she will have no problem dealing with the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun. The problem would be yours since you would not have a wife but a polar bear in bed. 2. If on the other hand she still has a tight grip on her femininity, I would suggest buying a .22 high mag capacity pistol instead, regardless what you read the little pistachios are very unpleasing in close distance. If you live in a Marxist enclave and you cannot legally buy a pistol then choose a plain .410 shotgun (not magnum like Saiga) the recoil is very litlle felt. My 2 c Hello all, The title says it all. Having never owned or even shot a Saiga 12, I am looking for opinions on how good the 12 would be for home defence. Along with that, is how easily my wife would be able to operate it if I were away. I know she can handle a pump gun but I would rather get a 12, and I am only authorized to buy one or the other. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) Dear friend, 1. If your wife looks like a Kelvinator refrigerator she will have no problem dealing with the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun. The problem would be yours since you would not have a wife but a polar bear in bed. 2. If on the other hand she still has a tight grip on her femininity, I would suggest buying a .22 high mag capacity pistol instead, regardless what you read the little pistachios are very unpleasing in close distance. If you live in a Marxist enclave and you cannot legally buy a pistol then choose a plain .410 shotgun (not magnum like Saiga) the recoil is very litlle felt. My 2 c Hello all, The title says it all. Having never owned or even shot a Saiga 12, I am looking for opinions on how good the 12 would be for home defence. Along with that, is how easily my wife would be able to operate it if I were away. I know she can handle a pump gun but I would rather get a 12, and I am only authorized to buy one or the other. Thanks for the help. Very good point Joe, I guess the way I read into the post was that it was "approved" for scatsob to get a new toy. thought he was asking which might be better between the two Edited June 10, 2008 by zone1935 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 The only drawback might be the 10th round shell deformation that I have seen addressed in the threads. I had a friend make up some brass shelled #00 buck shells and the top round deformation is no longer an issue. Or you could use the steel shells that are out in #7 birdshot (Barnaul or Wolf?) and use a heavy birdshot after the top steel shell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 1. If your wife looks like a Kelvinator refrigerator she will have no problem dealing with the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun. The problem would be yours since you would not have a wife but a polar bear in bed. LMAO I don't want to be here when Racegal reads this one! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 There was an old Kelvinator drinking fountain at my college!That thing was like from 1940! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Noob 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 +1 on the double barrel 'coach gun. I basically have the mindset of 2 levels of Home Defense; Level 1: Bump in the night, alarm goes off, etc. I grab the coach gun with aguila mini slugs in the tubes, and the handy dandy elastic stock thingy with 5 rds No4 in it. I figure that is enough...plus if I do unload and the fuzz shows up, once the gun is taken as evidence...(which in this day and age I'm sure it will even if I am justified in defending myself) If I don't get it back no big deal. Level 2: This would be any escalation of a Level 1 scenario. IE: Zombie outbreak, a "technical" pulls up after the food riots have begun, I see multiple targets getting into position through the NV scope., etc. You get the idea. At that point, the Saiga comes into play. Oh, let's not forget the no knock warrant. To this day I have done nothing wrong...but if a no knock gets served "at the wrong address" it WILL make the nightly news. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 1. If your wife looks like a Kelvinator refrigerator she will have no problem dealing with the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun. The problem would be yours since you would not have a wife but a polar bear in bed. LMAO I don't want to be here when Racegal reads this one! ROFL!! ...I do! I can see how a lot of folks are still on "de fence" about whether or not to go with the S-12 as their primary "go to" gun in an emergency situation. Pump guns have been around a long time and many have decided they are better than a semi because of their "manual" action. Much the same as there are still a lot of people who prefer the good ol reliable wheel gun for their carry sidearm. Much less to go wrong and possibly cost you your life....that's unless something goes wrong with the manual action. I don't have an 870 or anything but I do have an old Stevens pump that only works right about half the time. Needless to say, that gun is buried deep in the safe... I will definitely go to my S-12 FIRST if there is ever a situation where I need to defend my life or my home. If I'm in bed when the call to arms comes, I'll have my Glock in my hand til I get to it, and it will stay in my waistband after that, but I won't hesitate to grab that for a long arm. It's only about two seconds away and I sure as hell ain't gonna miss with that. Now as far as the lil lady goes...she knows how to use it too and won't hesitate I'm sure. If for some reason I'm not the closest to it she can grab it and rack that bolt as quick as anyone. I don't see a problem with TRD if I use good ammo for home defense. The top round won't be something like S&B buck that's gonna deform easily. There's also a fresh mag loaded full right beside the gun rack and it only takes a couple of seconds to either clear a deformed shell and chamber a new one, or even drop a mag and insert a fresh one. As far as recoil goes...well she can tell you all about that. She's definitely not a fridge (unless she's pissed off...lol), at her size a college dorm fridge is running a close race. I wouldn't worry at all about recoil, especially in a stressful, adrenaline charged situation. How many of you ever felt any recoil from that high powered rifle like a .300 mag or something, when you had a deer in your sights? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 1. If your wife looks like a Kelvinator refrigerator she will have no problem dealing with the recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun. The problem would be yours since you would not have a wife but a polar bear in bed. LMAO I don't want to be here when Racegal reads this one! ROFL!! ...I do! I can see how a lot of folks are still on "de fence" about whether or not to go with the S-12 as their primary "go to" gun in an emergency situation. Pump guns have been around a long time and many have decided they are better than a semi because of their "manual" action. Much the same as there are still a lot of people who prefer the good ol reliable wheel gun for their carry sidearm. Much less to go wrong and possibly cost you your life....that's unless something goes wrong with the manual action. I don't have an 870 or anything but I do have an old Stevens pump that only works right about half the time. Needless to say, that gun is buried deep in the safe... I will definitely go to my S-12 FIRST if there is ever a situation where I need to defend my life or my home. If I'm in bed when the call to arms comes, I'll have my Glock in my hand til I get to it, and it will stay in my waistband after that, but I won't hesitate to grab that for a long arm. It's only about two seconds away and I sure as hell ain't gonna miss with that. Now as far as the lil lady goes...she knows how to use it too and won't hesitate I'm sure. If for some reason I'm not the closest to it she can grab it and rack that bolt as quick as anyone. I don't see a problem with TRD if I use good ammo for home defense. The top round won't be something like S&B buck that's gonna deform easily. There's also a fresh mag loaded full right beside the gun rack and it only takes a couple of seconds to either clear a deformed shell and chamber a new one, or even drop a mag and insert a fresh one. As far as recoil goes...well she can tell you all about that. She's definitely not a fridge (unless she's pissed off...lol), at her size a college dorm fridge is running a close race. I wouldn't worry at all about recoil, especially in a stressful, adrenaline charged situation. How many of you ever felt any recoil from that high powered rifle like a .300 mag or something, when you had a deer in your sights? +1 on the adrenline, I have emptied my mossy 500 with rifled barrel standing in a tree stand and didn't fall out with the 10 pointer in my sights. The brother-in-law didn't think I string rounds together like that with a pump. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skifast 2 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I have a Moss 500 loaded with reduce recoil tactical 00. The kick isn't too bad. For a diminutive woman a 20 gauge should be fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytofdallas 1 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) I have my ear plugs, sun glasses and Serbu Super Shorty AOW mounted on my bed side board loaded with 15 pellet 3" mag 00 buck. If I miss em with three shots at least they will be blind and deaf so I can beat them to death with it. Gonna upgrade to a new 8" S17 as soon as I get it from Tony. Edited June 10, 2008 by jerrytofdallas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomovich 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I sold my 20 y.o. 870 and have my Saiga 12 hanging from my bedpost now. 'nuff said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhereg 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I don't see a problem w/ either choice. At this point I personally would pick my FN Police Shotgun over my S12 because it's what I've shot more. My hands know how to operate a pump even under stress. Clearing a failure to fire in a pump is easier than a semi. You just rack the slide & try again. (Much like a revolver is easier to run than a semi auto pistol.) On the other hand eventually I will convert to the Saiga as my primary shotgun. I just need to get a thousand rounds or so through it so I'm comfortable w/ it & have the correct muscle memory. In the real world I'd probably pick neither of them first, but i'd take either of them if it's what I had. My first choice is my AR15 SBR. My second choice my Glock 29, 20, or 19C. After them would be the shotguns and whatever else I happened to have at the time. Most of the time I'd end up using the G20 w/ a light on it since it's what sits in the electronic safe by the bed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RollingThunder 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 If you, for some reason, want to mix ammo types in one string - or prefer less than lethal ammo - then a pump would be a good option. Maybe I am wrong here but I think the manual racking of the pump seems like a reliability advantage if you run beans or whatever in the gun. When it comes to manipulation, recoil etc. I would suggest training. That should reduce your concerns about if your wife can handle the gun under preassure from an unexpected visitor in the house. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Less than lethal ammo..... hmm what happens if the guy breaking in isnt using it? Might as well use blanks IMO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I think familiarity plays a big role with any firearms choice. If someone is already familiar with an AK system, then the Saiga 12 is a great choice; or if someone has used pump actions their whole life, the pump is already second nature. If you or your girlfriend are already comfortable with the operation of one and it doesn't have a large learning curve, I would stick with that system! I don't recommend anything more than pepper spray if someone is not going to take the time and effort to learn the system that will be defending themselves and others with in a life and limb situation (even with pepper spray, I recommend taking it out into the hills and becoming familar with its function and operation). Make sure whether it is a .22 to a .50, if you or your girlfriend will be calling on it with the SHTF, you are intimately familiar with how it operates. Otherwise, the intruder could easily use it against you or disarm you if all he/she hears is a click (not a boom) or sees and anticipates you because of a long muzzle rounding the corner. If your girlfriend trains with it, then the recoil won't bother her for either. I know 12 year old girls that can handle an array of pistols and shotguns because they aren't afraid of them and they have taken the time to become familiar with their function. It is true that a .22's and .410's are easiest to learn on, but I wouldn't be too quick to bet my life on one. Another issue is that if you use something that just maims the intruder, then you open yourself up to "unnecessary pain inflicted" lawsuits. And many of the numbers used in the national statistics of the so-called gun murders are from accidents because people were careless and/or unfamiliar with the function of something they keep for those "home defense situations". I hate watching the news and hearing someone that just blew off his brother's head saying, "Well I didn't know it was loaded." I think of my Saiga 12 similar to Noob's perspective. It is not my bed gun because even the 18.5" model is cumbersome when rolling out of bed or searching rooms in a house, and I don't currently have a flashlight on it. I keep a Glock 23 with the Glock Light on the rail by my bed. If I need more than 13 rounds, then I will go to the Saiga 12! Overpenetration is an issue with all firearms even if you are using birdshot or specialty loads (the Box-O-Truth guy is a great resource on this) so understanding what your weapon can do and what is on the other side of the intruder is imperative. However, any home defense gun should have a flashlight on it or with it! Remington & Mossy have aftermarket (some factory) foregrips that have a spot for a flashlight. A bottom or side rail on the Saiga 12 can also accommodate a flashlight. If you end up shooting someone in a defense situation without a light to "identify" them in the dark, then a prosecuting lawyer will have a fun time explaining to a jury how you disregard life and you should be locked up because you are nothing but a trigger happy redneck! If you will just have a Maglight or the like that you carry in addition to the shotgun, get a pistol because even with a shot of adrenaline, you will likely be getting up in the middle of the night and you should use two hands to hold your weapon unless you are well trained with an alternate method (typically with a pistol, not a long gun). As far as shotties go, I got rid of my pump and got another Saiga 12. My Tromix conversion is my go-to gun for urban defense situations after my Glock is empty! I can run a pump like no tommorrow (I have even successfully shot sporting clays with one), but I prefer my semi-auto Saiga because it's got AK reliability and operation is simply chamber, point and shoot (no clicks, just booms)! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jettster 0 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I use my S12 with my AGP loaded with one round Fiocchi rubber shot and 9 rounds Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot. Hopefully the racking sound will scare off any intruder, if not, they get a warning with the rubber, then it's all over with the Federal. I know the Fiocchi can be lethal at close range, I'd rather not kill someone unless it is absolutely necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WHITE 3 GOLF 2 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 I would go with a pump action with less lethal ammunition, cause just like Jettster put it I'd rather my wife wound than kill someone. By the way my Rem. 870 pump has never failed me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 My wife has went for a gun twice (we live in the country), both times she picked my Stevens 311 coachgun. I'm still not 100% on the S-12, but I think I will be soon, I have some issues with the BHO, I may just remove it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 One of "problems" with a pump shotgun in a charged situation is "short stroking" i.e. failing to travel the slide fully back or fully foward. Alot of motion, no boom. It happens, I have done it. There you go, I admit it. I have had a problem stroking my gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DANGERRUSS 0 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) Regarding shell deformation: Whart are your thoughts on a loaded mag and bolt locked open. That way all you do is jack the charging handle and your ready to " get busy". Edited June 11, 2008 by DANGERRUSS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jettster 0 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 For additional "non lethal" rounds, check out this website. I'm a member of the Hi-Point forum and someone posted this site. I've never seen so many 12ga variations. I'm not affiliated with them, so sorry if this is wrong. http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Speciali...l_ammuniti.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Regarding shell deformation: Whart are your thoughts on a loaded mag and bolt locked open. That way all you do is jack the charging handle and your ready to " get busy". I tried that with mine, and held the shotgun a couple of inches off of the floor and let it drop and the bolt went forward and loaded a round. I didnt care much for that. I use a metal cased shell as my top round and that solved the problem. It sits loaded ready to load a shell into the chamber and fire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 I really think you should shoot a Saiga-12 before making the descision. It's felt recoil is much less than any shotgun I've ever fired. You slap a recoil pad on that sucker and pretty much anyone can handle it. My wife has shot mine, she can barely hold the thing up, but says the recoil isn't a deal breaker. If you want to go with a shotgun, make it a Saiga. I think it's best to assume if someone comes into your house, they know you're there. Assume they're armed, and don't bring a .22 to a gunfight. If it has to be a handgun, make it the biggest caliber she can comfortably shoot, out of those, pick the gun with the highest mag cap. If you think a Walther P-22 is going to stop an armed, determined attacker, check out the FBI writeup. http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html A Glock 19 is a good balance of firepower and mag capacity (15x9mm). It's also compact, so if your lady can stand the ergonomics, it would be a great choice. There are other similar pistols such as the Steyr M9A1, Smith and Wesson M&P, and Springfield XD that have about the same stats. You could also look into the little polymer carbines. They shoot handgun ammo in a compact "rifle", so they'll have a bit more punch with the longer barrel. I really can't speak on their reliability, as I don't own one, but I think they're a great idea for home defense. The Kel Tec Sub 2000 can take magazines from all different manufacturers. I've toyed with the idea of getting one, just because you could stick a G18 mag in it (33 rds of 9mm). Maybe someone else can comment on the reliability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Dangeruss - I have an old-style Saiga-12 with no BHO. I modded my safety lever to hold the bolt back, similar to this: http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...products_id=202 That is how I store mine, safety goes off, releasing the bolt, and I'm ready to rid the world of dirtbags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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