swany 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 So today I shot my S12 for the first time. I went through about 20 shells of 2 3/4 target loads. Each time, the shells would not eject and the next round would not advance. I had it on gas setting 2. I then put 2 3/4 00 Buck Shot in it and put it on setting 1. The shell would get half way out and the bolt would shut on it. With these, the next shell would come up, but would obviously not be ready to shoot because the previous round would jam. What is the solution to this problem? I just checked my new saiga and I also have 2 holes. This blows....It's already converted so I can't return it....we need to find a good gunsmith who's willing to help us. I don't feel like doing it myslef. If it's not meant to have 2 holes, I wonder if I should even bother shooting it.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 So today I shot my S12 for the first time. I went through about 20 shells of 2 3/4 target loads. Each time, the shells would not eject and the next round would not advance. I had it on gas setting 2. I then put 2 3/4 00 Buck Shot in it and put it on setting 1. The shell would get half way out and the bolt would shut on it. With these, the next shell would come up, but would obviously not be ready to shoot because the previous round would jam. What is the solution to this problem? I just checked my new saiga and I also have 2 holes. This blows....It's already converted so I can't return it....we need to find a good gunsmith who's willing to help us. I don't feel like doing it myslef. If it's not meant to have 2 holes, I wonder if I should even bother shooting it.... You may not have a problem! Try it using weaker shells on setting #2 and see what happens. Please give us a range report. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swany 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 (edited) So today I shot my S12 for the first time. I went through about 20 shells of 2 3/4 target loads. Each time, the shells would not eject and the next round would not advance. I had it on gas setting 2. I then put 2 3/4 00 Buck Shot in it and put it on setting 1. The shell would get half way out and the bolt would shut on it. With these, the next shell would come up, but would obviously not be ready to shoot because the previous round would jam. What is the solution to this problem? I just checked my new saiga and I also have 2 holes. This blows....It's already converted so I can't return it....we need to find a good gunsmith who's willing to help us. I don't feel like doing it myslef. If it's not meant to have 2 holes, I wonder if I should even bother shooting it.... You may not have a problem! Try it using weaker shells on setting #2 and see what happens. Please give us a range report. I took a look at an older saiga I have. SN# starts with 07422... it only has one hole in the center. There is a smaller hole to the side but mainly obstructed. I have shot that gun and it cycles bird shot on #2. It looks like my newer gun would have more flow with the two holes. Maybe these aren't mistakes...I'd guess more than one person in the process would have had to miss this but I don't expect the facility to be iso 9000 either I'm going to the range today...my ports look very similar to the two holed picture above.....I didn't buy the gun to shoot birdshot anyway....but I'd also like to be able to shoot the heavy stuff on number 1....greater reliability when the gun gets dirty...open up to two... I'll report back...my eight round mags are due today too:) here is a pic of my port.... Edited December 31, 2008 by swany Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oltmann 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I took off the gas block and drilled two new holes to make a square pattern. This was not a repair to be taken lightly. If you have a shop press and know how to use it, you can do the job. I wasn't too concerned about the finish that is already on the gun, and that helped. I have never shot the gun. I'm planning on running some cheap Walmart Federal 7.5 through it on New Years day. Swany, please do keep us updated. Good luck to all. I hope RAAC knows that this could ruin the image of the brand if they don't correct the problem quickly. I'm sure a very small percentage of new Saiga owners will visit this forum and find out what the real problem is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I took off the gas block and drilled two new holes to make a square pattern. This was not a repair to be taken lightly. If you have a shop press and know how to use it, you can do the job. I wasn't too concerned about the finish that is already on the gun, and that helped. I have never shot the gun. I'm planning on running some cheap Walmart Federal 7.5 through it on New Years day. Swany, please do keep us updated. Good luck to all. I hope RAAC knows that this could ruin the image of the brand if they don't correct the problem quickly. I'm sure a very small percentage of new Saiga owners will visit this forum and find out what the real problem is. Thanks for this post. I was considering doing the mod myself, but I don't have a press. AND, I really didn't want to fuck up my finish. I am glad I decided to send it back to RAAM. Here's the deal on them... SO FAR, they appear to be VERY INTERESTED in correcting this. I got a phone call from them and two e-mails yesterday. Nobody should expect better customer service than that. I consider it to be excellent - so far. Having to do all this is a pain in the ass, but their concern and willingness to make it right has won me over. I'm not the slightest bit pissed-off about having to go through all this. So far, I give them an A++++++++. No shit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacksoncustomshop 0 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I just recieved my S12 a few days ago and have yet to fire it. I tore it down to check it out and saw I have 2 gas ports. I didn't think anything of it until I saw this thread. I looked close and felt around behind the 2 ports with a dental pick and didn't feel any others.Here is a pic of what I've got: Should I be making a call? Mine looked like yours but my ports were more forward and could not be seen from the outside. But they were not obstructed. Mine were also angled the same way. Chances are, its going to have problems. I would get a 25 rd box of high brass and try it. If they do not cycle, send it in for a replacement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I just popped the plug outta mine, and looked... 4 holes, Diamond pattern perfectly centered in the hole of the gas block... I must be one of the lucky few... LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
broken scope 0 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I got a new 12 that also jams with medium sized brass on setting two. High brass ejects on two. I havent looked at the ports yet. If you had to drill more holes could you just drill from the front at a different angle without taking the block off? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 I got a new 12 that also jams with medium sized brass on setting two. High brass ejects on two. I havent looked at the ports yet. If you had to drill more holes could you just drill from the front at a different angle without taking the block off? I'd be afraid that I'd fuck it up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c3006 2 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) I may recover some stuff thats allready been said here cause I read over this thread real fast. I have worked over a few of these now and I believe they were never meant to shoot ultra light promo loads like they sell for nothing a wallyworld,theres no such thing in Russia I would bet. No mater what it is when I get it I drill four .080 holes which is just slightly larger than the original four hole drilling then smooth the action so it does not hang on slow return by hand. This mod will make it feed well with all but the lightest loads. I have also seen a couple the needed that gas selector plug screwed out one turn to keep it from obstucting the front hole. These shotguns were made to be lead throwin machines and with the proper shells they do this very well. Good luck and enjoy. c Edited January 1, 2009 by c3006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swany 1 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) So today I shot my S12 for the first time. I went through about 20 shells of 2 3/4 target loads. Each time, the shells would not eject and the next round would not advance. I had it on gas setting 2. I then put 2 3/4 00 Buck Shot in it and put it on setting 1. The shell would get half way out and the bolt would shut on it. With these, the next shell would come up, but would obviously not be ready to shoot because the previous round would jam. What is the solution to this problem? Well I finally got to try my saiga today. As I mentioned, it has the 2 hole setup...visible and unobstructed. I bought the plain green 00buck and rifled slugs from Remington. I started on setting 1. First shot failed to eject. I went to setting 2 and gun ran fine...I finished 10 rounds. Went back to setting 1 and the gun ran fine for the rest of shooting. This is probably the weekest stuff I'll shoot so I'm pretty happy. Can you guys who have 4 holes in your guns tell me if you shoot remington express 00 buck in position 1? Thanks Edited January 1, 2009 by swany 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacksoncustomshop 0 Posted January 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) I may recover some stuff thats allready been said here cause I read over this thread real fast. I have worked over a few of these now and I believe they were never meant to shoot ultra light promo loads like they sell for nothing a wallyworld,theres no such thing in Russia I would bet. No mater what it is when I get it I drill four .080 holes which is just slightly larger than the original four hole drilling then smooth the action so it does not hang on slow return by hand. This mod will make it feed well with all but the lightest loads. I have also seen a couple the needed that gas selector plug screwed out one turn to keep it from obstucting the front hole. These shotguns were made to be lead throwin machines and with the proper shells they do this very well. Good luck and enjoy. c Yea but I shot two 25 rd. boxes of high brass loads and some 00 buck (all on setting 2) and they would either get hung up exiting the gun or they got stuck inside the gun itself. Mine had no chance of functioning properly without voiding the warranty and drilling more gas ports. Edited January 1, 2009 by Corry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oltmann 1 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I made it out today to test my modifications(adding two holes to make a square pattern). As luck would have it, I was out shooting with a friend that also just bought a 2 hole S12. Mine cycled high base on #1 setting, and Federal 7.5 2 3/4" wally world bulk pack on #2 setting. I did get FTE with low base on setting #1, but it is a brand new gun that has not been broken in. My friends 2 hole gun(unrepaired), would FTE high base ammo on setting #1, but ran fine with high base on #2. The low base Federal would FTE on either setting for his gun. I'm happy with my fix, he's planning to SBS his Saiga, so enlarging the gas ports was always in the plan. Now he'll just have to drill two holes and enlarge the existing two I guess. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GimmeLiberty 0 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Gah !! I just shot mine for the first time today with the same issues. Mine is S/N H08429xxx, but I can't see any gas port holes at all ! Should the gas holes be right in the center of the hole you can see looking through the front of the gas tube ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Gah !! I just shot mine for the first time today with the same issues. Mine is S/N H08429xxx, but I can't see any gas port holes at all ! Should the gas holes be right in the center of the hole you can see looking through the front of the gas tube ? I can't see mine either. I took a pic out of my cleaning kit and probed around behind the lip (after taking the plug off) to find out that I had two. I think mine are partially blocked by the housing, too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GimmeLiberty 0 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Gah !! I just shot mine for the first time today with the same issues. Mine is S/N H08429xxx, but I can't see any gas port holes at all ! Should the gas holes be right in the center of the hole you can see looking through the front of the gas tube ? I can't see mine either. I took a pic out of my cleaning kit and probed around behind the lip (after taking the plug off) to find out that I had two. I think mine are partially blocked by the housing, too. I just went to my dealer and looked at another S12 he had in stock. I could plainly see only one hole right in the middle. I guess I will exchange the one I got with that one and hope it works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Like others here I didn't think too much about the fact that I could not shoot cheap wally loads without FTE until I read this thread. I recently purchase two saiga 12 shotguns and have only fired one. I one that I have fired has three holes in the barrel and only one exposed in the gas tube. I opened my spare saiga and looked at it and it has two holes in the barrel and two in the gas tube. I called and left a message with RAA. I would like to have them replaced with 4-hole guns. We'll see what they say. I used my Snap-On borescope to look down the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
broken scope 0 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I checked mine and it is a 2 holer. I made sure that the gas plug was screwed all the way in then backed it out to #2 approx 1//4 turn. This does make a difference because I tried another full turn out on 2 and it started jamming more. I also left the bolt back and oiled parts and let it set for a week. This has made it start cycling med brass more reliably23/4. I tried the low brass and was mostly fte. Im going to let it set longer on an open bolt before sending it back just to try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GimmeLiberty 0 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I returned my S12 that had NO gas port holes visible in the gas tube and exchanged it for the only other one in stock with only one hole visible directly in the center. The new gun worked perfectly straight from the box even on the light loads on setting 2. Awesome gun! Now I just need to find the rest of the goodies to go with my shottie and get to work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho 10 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 ok.. wth.. i have a New s12 worked great on setting 1 with slugs... but on setting 2 with #9 winchester cheapees it dosnt cycle... it has 2 gas ports.. sand/polish or send back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GimmeLiberty 0 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 ok..wth.. i have a New s12 worked great on setting 1 with slugs... but on setting 2 with #9 winchester cheapees it dosnt cycle... it has 2 gas ports.. sand/polish or send back? Don't use the Winchester rounds. That is the bottom of the barrel and are known not to cycle in the Saiga's. The Federal cheap rounds should work ok though. They do on mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) I have come up with a method to repair the gas tube hole issue. A method anyone could do at home with simple HAND tools and minimal effort! Including disassemble and reassembly this modification took about 2 hours. I will create a separate topic later with complete instructions and pics. The Saiga 12 I did this mod to was a '3-holer', meaning it had three holes drilled into the barrel. I know this because I used my Snap-On borescope to look down the barrel. BORESCOPE IMAGE: The issue is that although the barrel has three holes, two of the holes are obstructed in the gas tube ahead of the piston. This leaves only one hole for gas to pass through and operate the action of the gun. GAS TUBE (before mod): Even in this condition, this gun would fire everything BUT the cheap low power Wally birdshot using both gas positions #1 & #2. Wally loads would FTE (Fail To Eject) every shot on either gas setting. After modification all three holes are clear. I'm assuming the gun will cycle everything now with all three holes uncovered. I will test fire the gun and report my findings. If for any reason it still FTEs, I will add a additional hole. I do not want to drill any more holes in the barrel unless absolutely necessary. GAS TUBE (after mod): You can see from the following picture what was going on before modification. Two of the three holes were coverd by the poorly aligned/machined hole in the gas block. (The powder burn outlines the original round hole.) BARREL: Edited January 5, 2009 by JeffD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho 10 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 yeah i don't have a ton of time to hose around when not working. RAA are checking my serial now. # 491/500 of an 08 run. will send it back to be repaired under warranty. think they just got tired at the end of the run... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cellsworth 21 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) So today I shot my S12 for the first time. I went through about 20 shells of 2 3/4 target loads. Each time, the shells would not eject and the next round would not advance. I had it on gas setting 2. I then put 2 3/4 00 Buck Shot in it and put it on setting 1. The shell would get half way out and the bolt would shut on it. With these, the next shell would come up, but would obviously not be ready to shoot because the previous round would jam. What is the solution to this problem? Well I finally got to try my saiga today. As I mentioned, it has the 2 hole setup...visible and unobstructed. I bought the plain green 00buck and rifled slugs from Remington. I started on setting 1. First shot failed to eject. I went to setting 2 and gun ran fine...I finished 10 rounds. Went back to setting 1 and the gun ran fine for the rest of shooting. This is probably the weekest stuff I'll shoot so I'm pretty happy. Can you guys who have 4 holes in your guns tell me if you shoot remington express 00 buck in position 1? Thanks I have a "two-hole" S-12 myself, and I experienced exactly the same results as you describe. I got a gas knob from Gunfixr, and the performance of the gun immediately improved significantly. My S-12 now cycles medium target loads (Winchester AA Super Handicap) 100% on setting 3 of the gas knob from Gunfixr. YMMV, but I realized great results with the new gas knob. Edited January 5, 2009 by hogdog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 OK JeffD, I'll bite. How can I do this mod with simple hand tools and minimal effort. Honestly, I don't even think I can get the barrel off without a press. I see your pics (and thanks, btw), but how do we go about doing the mod? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 SWEEET Mine has the 4 holes in diamond pattern. Actually I was thinking I made a mistake buying this weapon at first. My 1st trip to range with 100 rnds of Winchester universal wally world cheap was a nightmare, jam after jam then a stove pipe etc. This website helped explain things. Thank you to the founder fo this site. I'll be sending a donation soon. After ~200 rnds of break-in with mixed 2.75 bird, 2.75 slugs, and 3" #4 and OO buckshot. It works great!!!! Today it cycled everything on Setting #1 My high brass setting. Did a few mixed 10 rnd mags of remington 2.75" birdhsot (wally world) and 3" #4 and OO buck. Like a hot knife through butter. no jams at all. I even got a few clay pigeons with the buckshot. ha!! Now all I need is the 20 rnd drums. I can't wait. Does anyone know what a trunion is? I'm wondering , with four holes, will it cycle nonlethal loads on setting 2?? Hmmm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flash! 1 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Mine was not running real reliably from the start.....it cycled the shells but would not reset the trigger......I found out that mine has the four holes....... but with a bent paperclip, I was able to clean more gunk out of those four holes than I could even imagine was in there...works much better clean.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 OK JeffD, I'll bite. How can I do this mod with simple hand tools and minimal effort. Honestly, I don't even think I can get the barrel off without a press. I see your pics (and thanks, btw), but how do we go about doing the mod? I'm working on the how-to article right now. It takes quite a bit of time with pics and all. I also spoke with Clyde from RAAC today and will include those details in write up as well... Stay tuned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 OK JeffD, I'll bite. How can I do this mod with simple hand tools and minimal effort. Honestly, I don't even think I can get the barrel off without a press. I see your pics (and thanks, btw), but how do we go about doing the mod? Check out this topic to help solve your issues: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33836 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Mine was not running real reliably from the start.....it cycled the shells but would not reset the trigger......I found out that mine has the four holes....... but with a bent paperclip, I was able to clean more gunk out of those four holes than I could even imagine was in there...works much better clean.... Yep when she's clean and lubed she's a lotta fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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