Surefire Saiga 12/13rd Magazine Pics-Early Christmas Present

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yeah, no shit. That mag is way too long.

Tony

 

Try and tell that to these guys in Finland...lol.

 

 

I think that a ten round drum would be handier and less obtrusive. Maybe Mike can wash one of his MD 20s in hot water then throw it in the drier for a couple of hours to shrink it down to an MD 10.

 

Chaos is already working on a ten round drum design.

 

Do these hold the bolt open after the last round like the rifle mags? I'm going to guess 'no' because it's a single stack...?

No auto BHO feature....yet.

Now that I have one to test, I will be modding it for my own REAL LRBHO device. I will let you guys all know when it is working.

 

 

we need 8 round mags not 10 , 12 or 13

8rds and made of better plastic than the 308 mags

 

These are made so you can cut the mag body down to a smaller size if you want. There's a cutoff point for 8rds (actually 9 when full, just like the factory mags).

 

It's not "plastic". It's a glass filled polymer made by Dupont. It is plenty strong enough and has been thoroughly tested by the MFG.

 

 

Perhaps a caster wheel mounted on the floor plate would make a handy option for the full length version?

Azrial do you think I should design a set of training wheels that clips on the floor plate, so midgets with S-12s can use it for a rolling monopod?

 

 

I have identified only one problem, and perhaps it is not a problem. Does anyone else see an issue with the lack of replaceable feed lips? I actually think this is one of the strong points of the original factory design and I would have liked to see it carried over to these magazines. On a rebated-rim cartridge I don't see it being as big of a deal, but given the direct pressure the rim of the shotgun rounds place on the feed lips, it seems to me that the polymer would start to show signs of significant wear after a few hundred rounds.

 

I had a lengthy conversation with Phil, at Surefire, last night. He told me that he has put several thousand rounds of all types of ammo...2.75" AND 3", through his test mags. I was also concerned about the polymer feed lips. He said that after all those rounds in the test mags, there was no noticeable wear on the feed lips, other than a glazed (like polished by the brass) surface which actually makes them feed even better. This is A VERY HIGH QUALITY polymer, not just 'plastic'. If any of you remember some of the torture tests Mike D has done with his drums, you might also remember him describing how strong polymers can be made these days...even stronger than steel.

After talking to Phil and hearing all about the manufacturing process in great detail, I have full confidence in these mags and believe the feed lips will not present any problems.

 

At around $50 apiece, I think if I can get 5,000 rounds out of one mag?....then I have definitely gotten my money's worth. Don't you? Just how many people are actually going to put that many rounds through just one mag anyway? Most people who buy these are going to buy at least two, and a lot of people are gonna buy 10 or more. With each additional mag, that's an additional 5,000 rds (I'm just throwing that number out there. It has not been proven as a failure point or anything). I just don't see them "wearing out" realistically.

Besides...if someone just had to have steel feedlips on these mags for 'reinforcement'....I would be happy to put some on there for them.

 

 

well when you guys get them and mod them to 8 round a tutorial would be nice thanks..

No tutorial is necessary. All you have to do is cut the mag body in two with a miter saw, hacksaw, bandsaw, or anything that will cut "plastic" (using that word loosely here)....and cut it exactly straight, immediately below the 2nd rib up from the bottom. Then the floorplate will slide over that rib, just like it does the bottom rib now.

I will be happy to modify these mags for anyone who doesn't have the right equipment to do a perfect job on it, but wants it perfect.

In time, Surefire will be offering them in lesser capacities, as has been stated above.

Those will be..

2rd

5rd

8rd

10rd

12rd

Each of which will easily insert on a closed bolt.

[scootatrash 0]

Ok, I'm wondering why so many of you want to buy these 12 round mags and cut them down? What is the problem with leaving them 12/13 rounders? Is it because of a competition thing? Is it just because they are too long sticking out the bottom of the gun? Or is there some other reason to cut them down?

 

Seems to me, more is better ... no?

 

ST

[hobbyshooter 59]

Badass! I'm very excited, and glad I placed my preorder.

[Flash! 1]

what is with the obsession with 8 rounders????

 

I ordered the 12 rounders and they will stay 12 rounders.... l already have 10 rounders.... no need for 8 rounders....

[fxhart 14]

Ok, I'm wondering why so many of you want to buy these 12 round mags and cut them down? What is the problem with leaving them 12/13 rounders? Is it because of a competition thing? Is it just because they are too long sticking out the bottom of the gun? Or is there some other reason to cut them down?

 

Seems to me, more is better ... no?

 

ST

 

 

 

I just think they look a little silly. But since they are coming out with factory 8 rounders I'm going to keep mine as is. Of course chances are we won't be able to buy anything larger than 10 rounders soon anyway.

[starman 1]

I'm new to Saiga 12s, having just received my Saiga 12 a few days ago. I have seen a lot of people interested in 8 round mags. I am curious as to what, if anything, is special about 8 round mags. Thanks.

[GhostStan 2]

for me 8 round mag size is just perfect more tactial easy to move the gun around more pratctical than over size mag..

[russianblood 0]

Ok, I'm wondering why so many of you want to buy these 12 round mags and cut them down? What is the problem with leaving them 12/13 rounders? Is it because of a competition thing? Is it just because they are too long sticking out the bottom of the gun? Or is there some other reason to cut them down?

 

Seems to me, more is better ... no?

 

ST

 

Some people use USA made magazines to get their parts count correct for 922r compliance but can't use hi-cap magazines for hunting or competition. In Michigan, we can only hunt with 6 rounds total in a semi-auto centerfire weapon. So cutting down a USA magazine to the same size as a Russian made magazine will give those people both 922r compliance and DNR compliance.

[stiletto raggio 20]

Yeah, no shit. That mag is way too long.

Tony

 

Try and tell that to these guys in Finland...lol.

 

I can't wait to see someone FRankenmag two of these together. 25 round sticks, anybody?

 

 

I had a lengthy conversation with Phil, at Surefire, last night. He told me that he has put several thousand rounds of all types of ammo...2.75" AND 3", through his test mags. I was also concerned about the polymer feed lips. He said that after all those rounds in the test mags, there was no noticeable wear on the feed lips, other than a glazed (like polished by the brass) surface which actually makes them feed even better. This is A VERY HIGH QUALITY polymer, not just 'plastic'. If any of you remember some of the torture tests Mike D has done with his drums, you might also remember him describing how strong polymers can be made these days...even stronger than steel.

After talking to Phil and hearing all about the manufacturing process in great detail, I have full confidence in these mags and believe the feed lips will not present any problems.

 

At around $50 apiece, I think if I can get 5,000 rounds out of one mag?....then I have definitely gotten my money's worth. Don't you? Just how many people are actually going to put that many rounds through just one mag anyway? Most people who buy these are going to buy at least two, and a lot of people are gonna buy 10 or more. With each additional mag, that's an additional 5,000 rds (I'm just throwing that number out there. It has not been proven as a failure point or anything). I just don't see them "wearing out" realistically.

Besides...if someone just had to have steel feedlips on these mags for 'reinforcement'....I would be happy to put some on there for them.

 

I understand the logic and don't doubt they have been thoroughly tested. SGM seems to be very thoughtful in their design and manufacture process and responsive to criticism and customer satisfaction issues. I just figured that if nobody else had noticed/cared/wanted to broach the subject, I would. I can't wait to get my hands of a few 12/13s and another few 8s.

 

Methinks ProMag is going to be disappointed that they were dramatically out-engineered.

[topmaul 42]

Cobra or CarolinaSS how is the feed angle with respect ot OEM mags?

[wally 2]

its the viagra mag,a.k.a the john holmes mag LOL,might get one or two for shits and giggles if they feed well

[Caspian 32]

questions I would like to see answered, for unobvious reasons, but seriously -

 

We here at CGW most likely will stick to less than ten rounds for FA and entry gun use sales, but I am indeed curious about how these mags works under heavy abuse, temperatures, and loadings in a full auto. I know that surefire offers a solid product, and am interested heavily in how tests work out.

 

As unique as it is, i cant see swinging a loaded 12-13 rounder under a lightweight LEO only FA gun, but they can indeed be cut back, like all surefire magazines, which is what I am most interested in hearing about, with the springs, and adjusted shorter lengths and all.....

-Ben Vampatella

 

uhh.....are you serious? as much as you want to be part of something much bigger than you are, please be quiet before you embarass yourself.

 

who the hell cares how well they perform under full auto fire? less than 0.1% of Saiga 12's in the country are registered full auto dealer samples. Think a company is gonna spend tens of thousands of dollars for that market?

 

you "can't imagine swinging a 12-13 rounder under lightweight LEO only FA gun.....". Of course not....you're a wanna be, never have been.

 

what's wrong, wanna be product tester, left out of the loop? imagine that.

 

to answer your question, if they did half the testing that Mike D did, then you have nothing to worry about. as seen with WM, if you have crap coming out of the gates, you will fail quickly. Surefire isn't stupid, nor are they a new company. It will work fine.

 

Caspian

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yes it will work fine. I've been trying for an hour or so now to upload a video to youtube that we shot today. It's my first time doing this and it shows....How long's it's suposed to f'kin take!? Geez!

I went through all my ammo and managed to find 12 different kinds of 12 ga shells to test this baby with. Loaded em all in the same mag and shot them all without a hitch.

 

I'll be back in a few with some pics at least...

[MikeD 541]

Man, I was really hoping Surefire wouldn't take the cheap way out with these like they did with the .410 mags. What I mean is no spring steel feedlips. One concern will be that the feedlips will wear out and off. It would probably take awhile but very possible. The biggest concern I have with it is what is called "creep" in the plastic world. Creep is when plastic takes a new form with extended pressure. It is no secret that considerable pressure will be resting on the feedlips with a mag loaded. In time it might cause them to expand and not contract back once emptied. This might cause fitting or locking problems if it does occur. With a spring steel feedlip the mag body is taking zero pressure in the tower from a mag being loaded. The steel feedlips expand and not the mag body.

 

I am also assuming they have no steel insert in the front mag catch which is not good either if they don't. I may be wrong but I don't see them skipping the steep feedlips and not skipping a more complicated steel insert. Hell, the Russians even put one in the 5rd mag. They didn't do that for nothing.

 

But let me say I have no first hand experience with these mags and I hope these things don't prove to be a problem. But also let me say I don't agree with their shortcuts at all!!!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Time will tell...

[gpqueen 545]

I shot both mags in 3 different guns. My Tromix(mag well removed) and 2 NIB unfired 19" and 24". I shot around 250 rounds total. Federal #7.5 Walmart bulk pack, Remington OO buck, slugs, #6 and #8. Winchester 7.5 and 3" #4. All worked perfect with no issues at all and cycled very fast. I think these are outstanding mags. I see zero wear on the feed lips, just made them shiny and fed faster. I have left my 308 25 rd mags loaded for a year now and they work perfect. I would think Surefire and Dupont have been in the business long enough to create a polymer that will not creep under the pressure required. Like Cobra said, only time will tell.

 

I know this is a new item and there are some questions about how they will hold up. They come with a five year manufacturer warranty if there is ever a problem with them.

[Bvamp 604]

most of my questions have been answered. thanks guys!

 

two things though, 3" shells w/grit in the mag, and temperature failure point. There is really only one reason Im asking these two questions. It shouldnt be difficult to figure out. I have some surefires here I can do a temperature failure test on, but that still doesnt answer the 3" shell grit test under rapid fire.

 

I dont doubt the quality of this product at all, just curious what the failure point actually IS.

 

Caspian - merry xmas I hear you got some snow!

[aessu 1]

No front mag catch steel insert... Neither does AGP have one, or atleast I didn't find one in my mags. The plastic feed lips is what concerns me, will they hold up to abuse?

[topmaul 42]

I have plenty of mags, at the moment my question is about the feed angle, is it the same as the OEM Russian mags? Or is it lower like the AGPs? The reason I ask is my son's Saiga sometimes does not work well with AGPs and runs like a raped ape using OEM 8s. I was considering buying OEM 8s from Oleg at RusMilitary.com Really can't wait we all know how fast Oleg sells out of the real deal.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well ...now that the negativity seems to have cleared out a bit....

 

I don't have a lot of extra funds to buy ammo with, but I did give the 12 mag a pretty thorough test today in two different S-12s. One was a brand new gun that belongs to a good friend of mine, that only had about 50 rounds through it so far....the other was my tried and true AKS-12 that has had countless rounds poured into it over the years. First thing I noticed when I first loaded the mag, was how smooth and easy the follower goes through the mag. It has absolutely no resistance on the sides, unlike most of the factory ones. The spring pressure also feels like it's less, since it moves so freely. Yet it still snaps right up strong with authority. I also expected it to weigh more, being so long and huge looking, but it isn't noticeably heavy at all when full. It's actually very streamlined and fits in the hand well. The sides are flat, except for the ribs...not contoured like all the other mags. The length doesn't bother me at all. I like it.

 

So I lined up all the misc. shells I rounded up. Here they are....

L-R:

1. 3" Sellier and Bellott 1 1/4oz Buckshot

2. Same as above in newer, clear shell

3. 2.75" Wolf 1oz slug

4. 2.75" Brenneke 1oz slug

5. 3" Winchester Super X 1oz slug

6. 2.75" Remington Slugger

7. 2.75" Winchester Super Magnum #4

8. 2.75" Remington Magnum Express #4

9. 2.75" Wraithmaker specials...lol

10. 2.75" PMC #8 shot

11. 2.75" Federal Walyworld Bulk Pack #8

12. 2.75" Remington Gun Club #7 1/2 shot

 

Loaded up the mag and they all fit nicely with plenty of room to spare. Loading it on a closed bolt was totally effortless in the new, unmodified S-12. Since I had a mixed load, I decided to set it on #1 and hope for the best. Remember...this gun has only had two boxes of Federal low brass run through it so far.

I put the heavier loads towards the top of the mag to hopefully loosen it up a little by the time I got to the low brass crap. (Shot them all in the same order listed above, 1-12)

 

So I started the tape rolling, showed the camera the 3" shell on top.... and let loose on some fun targets!

 

It was fridge cleanout day so I brought a nasty old jug of Tomato Juice that's been hiding way in the back for too long....lol. And for the real fun splatter I brought along this um....."Meatcake!" for lack of a better term .

Ok 1st, the story of how the meatcake came to be...real quick...

 

Racegal saved all the drippings and skin, fat and stuff off the 28 lb. Thanksgiving turkey she cooked for us. Then she boiled the carcass after we were done pickin' on it for a few days.....mmmm turkey sandwiches ...and got all the scraps off the bones for the doggers....put it all in the blender and made this awesome gravy for our two spoiled dogs (who BTW never get table scraps like that) to pour it on their food for treats....Well.....that turned out to be NOT a good idea! Max got the worst case of the farts I think he's ever had and was clearing rooms for two days!

 

So out it went on the back porch and in the freezing weather. It congealed overnight into this impossibly gross looking substance that I really really didn't feel like messing with for a few days so I covered it and hid it in the beer fridge out in the carport...lol. Ya know how the smell of turkey just ain't what you want to experience, after you've been eating it for a week straight?

 

SO! Finally! Yesterday I discovered an excellent excuse to take it out and dispose of it in style! Rather than just throw it in the creek for the turtles to enjoy, I had a grand idea! Why not use it for a target while testing this sweet mag that Phil sent me to test with my LRBHO! Thanks Phil!

 

So today, down we went to the range carrying two S-12s, a bunch of shotgun ammo, a bottle of mater juice, a couple of beers, a camera, and pot full of.....

 

MEATCAKE!!!

 

 

 

 

Back to the action...

Dammit I couldn't get the video to upload so I'll just call the play by play...

 

 

camera rolling....first shot of 00 Buck shreds a flipflop that floated downstream in last week's flood....

 

Second shot of Buck explodes mater juice into a nasty red halo...lol.

 

Third shot, the Wolf slug...well you know where that one had to go..lol

S-P-L-A-T-T-E-R!!

 

OMG what a mess!

 

WOOHOO!! She blowed up real good! Not a piece to be found! I suddenly love fridge cleanout day! And as a bonus...the mag is still hanging there and I have had NO misfeeds....

 

Third shot...back to what's left of the Tomato Juice bottle... another big red splatter!

 

...still feeding fine....

 

Forth shot finishes off what's left of the jug with a slug

 

A couple more big blasts with a nice daytime fireball from the magnum Express #4...woohoo

Then it FTFd when I got to guess which one? Yep...fired number nine and failed to feed number ten. Good o' weak ass Winchester Universal fired but couldn't git er done. (but still keep in mind she's on setting #1 for magnums, so that's definitely no surprise)

 

Cleared that one and shot the last three with no problem! Yay! on #1! Amazing how some S-12s will work fine out of the box, and others....well...

 

So the BIG MAG passed it's first test with flying colors! I was quite impressed (and amused of course.....lol).

 

 

 

 

 

Time for round two!

 

Picked up all my empties and tossed em in the Harley. And guess what! Right there laying half buried and rusty, from a few weeks ago when krisfox and I were down there blasting stuff with his new drum....Bvamp are you ready for this?? I thought of you right away!

 

 

 

 

These shells have been under water at least three days total since last time I was down there. We've had a couple of big rains that flooded the lowland. "What a perfect test for the new mag to see if it will cycle crusty ol shit like this" I thought. "Bvamp would be so proud"!

 

So I loaded them near the bottom with one good shell in between, and filled it the rest of the way with all I had left...Federal Bulk #8 from Wallyworld.

 

 

Matt rolled the camera and I put the AKS-12 to action for the first time with the new mag. (after making a slight modification with my pocket knife so it wouldn't set off the LRBHO accidently....(Still haven't modded the follower yet so it this wasn't a test for that.)

 

I ripped through the first 9 rounds in maybe three seconds, then it needed a little push to get the first rotten shell in the chamber..but it did feed...and fire...and the next one did too with just a little tug on the charging handle. Next time I may just have to bury 12 of em down there in the sand on the creek bank for another full test.

As far as I'm concerned though....it passed today! Sounds like Greg also had no problems at all.

[Azrial 1,091]

....Caspian - merry xmas I hear you got some snow!

Bravo!

 

BTW: Thanks for the test Cobra, it was a good read!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Azrial

[stiletto raggio 20]

What I mean is no spring steel feedlips. One concern will be that the feedlips will wear out and off... With a spring steel feedlip the mag body is taking zero pressure in the tower from a mag being loaded. The steel feedlips expand and not the mag body.

 

I am also assuming they have no steel insert in the front mag catch which is not good either if they don't. I may be wrong but I don't see them skipping the steep feedlips and not skipping a more complicated steel insert. Hell, the Russians even put one in the 5rd mag. They didn't do that for nothing.

 

If Mike is asking the same questions I am, I think I am in good company. The steel feed lips seem like the one aspect of the Saiga magazine design that every other maker--the Russians, AGP, Promag, the Taiwanese--agreed on. The question is this: even supposing that the lips of the SGM mags end up having no problems, was there any good reason not to include the steel lips in the design and preempt and doubts? Surely, this part could not have increased cost of manufacture by more than a few dollars--again, even the Taiwanese clones have them--so why would you not just go ahead and include it in the design?

 

To reiterate, absolutely no ill will here. I just wonder what went into the thought process.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

The springs and the feed lips are the most expensive parts of the AGP mags, from what I understand. SGM obviously wanted to elliminate that substantial extra cost. If they did their homework, and the tests so far show that they have, then it's probably not going to be an issue. Their mags (and feed lips) have already passed extensive testing. They have a 5 year warranty from what I understand, and they have very good customer service, something you don't find everywhere these days. Give the mags a chance to prove themselves to the public like they have to the maker. If they do indeed wear out then I'm sure there will be a change implemented. It would not be that hard to just make some steel feed lips fit them if it was actually necessary.

[Bvamp 604]

Not exactly a mil-spec, but it'll do! Thanks for the write-up, Cobra.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Not trying to be mil spec...just sharing an experience. I wasn't contracted to do "review" BTW...Phil sent me this mag for one purpose, to see if I could make it work with my LRBHO. It was not a GIFT (Max), nor was I asked to do any reporting or promoting. I'm merely sharing my experience because I have the opportunity to help answer some questions from those who are yet undecided whether or not to purchase. My opinion is, this is a very good product.

Just thought I should clear that up, based on a few 'comments' I've seen.

[TR Young 175]

Cobra, based on your range report, I am eagerly awaiting mine! A coworker has a couple of old computer monitors that are just begging to be turned into pit scrap and I think a couple of 12 rounders will accomplish that quite nicely....

[MikeD 541]

I wasn't really trying to be negative. Let me say what I do like about the design that I can say know without having any in hand. I like the extended capacity. I like the versatitly of being able to reduce capacity. And I like that it is a single peice body rather than to screwed together halves.

 

I do think the steel feedlips should not have been skipped. The cost is more for steel feedlips, yes. But the quality they would add is very well worth it. I'm not sure about the steel insert, if it has one or not. No one has confirmed either way. But I would have to guess no. I know most AGP's have never had a problem not having one. But sometimes they do loose the front mag catch. I have even heard reports of this from resent batches of the AGP's. The extra weight of the Surefire mags will add more force. It could be that the material Surefire is using is better suited.

 

AGP has always been good about address any issue and as long as Surefire does the same than any problems won't be a problem, just a slight set back.

 

I do hate that they don't have the steel feedlips though ( and MAYBE a steel insert in the front mag catch).

[Bvamp 604]

from what I am reading about your testing, Cobra, it certainly appears that with each new surefire product that comes out, there are improvements being made to their design process.

[hobbyshooter 59]

What I mean is no spring steel feedlips. One concern will be that the feedlips will wear out and off... With a spring steel feedlip the mag body is taking zero pressure in the tower from a mag being loaded. The steel feedlips expand and not the mag body.

 

I am also assuming they have no steel insert in the front mag catch which is not good either if they don't. I may be wrong but I don't see them skipping the steep feedlips and not skipping a more complicated steel insert. Hell, the Russians even put one in the 5rd mag. They didn't do that for nothing.

 

If Mike is asking the same questions I am, I think I am in good company. The steel feed lips seem like the one aspect of the Saiga magazine design that every other maker--the Russians, AGP, Promag, the Taiwanese--agreed on. The question is this: even supposing that the lips of the SGM mags end up having no problems, was there any good reason not to include the steel lips in the design and preempt and doubts? Surely, this part could not have increased cost of manufacture by more than a few dollars--again, even the Taiwanese clones have them--so why would you not just go ahead and include it in the design?

 

To reiterate, absolutely no ill will here. I just wonder what went into the thought process.

Honestly though the Taiwanese mags are simply reverse engineered 5 rnd mags. In my experience of reverse engineering the only r&d is how to maintain functionality. Not how to redesign the lips for lower production cost (especially when manual labor is so inexpensive).

[THE_HUNTER 2]

I would be interested in a clear one for sure, but the plastic feed lips scare me too....