Concealed Carry

[Tokageko 8]

I think the title and description say it all really, but to clarify: I'm interested in hearing whether the members of this forum carry concealed handguns (or would if they could) and why? In particular, I would like to know if anyone thinks that concealed carry is a better option than open carry, and of course, why? I'm not making any assumptions one way or the other for the purposes of this discussion, and am not planning on arguing about anything... as I have been known to do as of late.

 

All oppinions are welcome, but please, explain your reasoning to the best of your abilities (rather than giving a one or two word answer). I'm curious to hear what all of you think. Thanks in advance, for your time and responses.

 

Tokageko

[yurt_boy 0]

I'm a retired cop, so I've carried concealed as a cop and as a civilian. In my opinion, there's really no other way to go. I suppose carrying openly has something of an intimidation factor which might dissuade some ne'erdowell's evil plans, but it'll also bring A LOT of unwanted attention. If you go that route, be prepared for unenlightened citizens to call the police, store security, etc. Plus, the vast majority of people who see it will look at you like you're a freak. Maybe you don't care what others think, but from someone who spent years looking like a shitbird biker, the sneers get old. And let's say you're carrying openly and happen to get in a verbal beef with someone. What's to keep them from falsely claiming you pointed a gun at them? The KNOW you have one. They can accurately describe it in their fictitious statement. The number one reason to carry concealed in my book is a combination of weapon retention and the proverbial element of surprise. If you were to carry a visible pistol on your hip or small of your back (the two most common locations), what's to stop a criminal from walking up behind you and taking it? Personally, I carry concealed using an "IWB" (inside waist band) holster, just to the right of my belt buckle. If you've got a quality gun, you're not going to blow your balls off. Nobody is going to sneak up behind you and grab it, EVEN if they happened to know it was there. It's an easy, quick draw also. Anyway, that's just my two cents' worth. I'm sure there are plenty who disagree with me. In the last 13 years, I've never had to use a handgun off duty, but there've been PLENTY of times I'm glad I had it. I'm something of a "lightning rod" -- trouble seems to seek me out. It's always better to hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

[KySoldier 2]

Well said. Its all about being prepared should the time come, and "surprise" is your best friend. If everyone knows you carry a gun because its open carry or you let it become know that you frequently carry concealed, then you loose your biggest advantage. Best to carry concealed everywhere you can (which is almost everywhere in KY) so you will always have the immediate protection if needed; police are nice, but they can't always show up in time to rescue you. Your safety and that of your family is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. OK, I'm done. Oh yeah, and get something reliable that'll do the job; don't be cheap, this is your life you're defending!

[Tokageko 8]

Ok, so is there anyone on the other side of the fence?

 

If not, I may just have to step in and offer an opposing veiw. That's not too big of a deal though, I've debated all kinds of things I don't agree with. ; )

 

Edit: KYsoldier, could you please explain what you mean by, "should the time come"? Also, in that time, why is surprise such an advantage? You'll have to excuse me, I'm from the "Run away if you have a chance," school of thought concerning self defense.

 

 

I'd also like to comment on the police. The way I have heard it, they are not required by law to protect individual citizens. Is that about right? I ask because my thoughts as of late are to see to my/other people's safety first, and call the police second. I do veiw self-defense as a personal responsibility, one that more people should take seriously, rather than relying on someone else (police, etc.) to do it for them.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Tokageko

[des2 0]

I personally carry concealed & would not have it any other way.

 

I'm also from the "Run away if you have a chance," school of thought concerning self defense & always will be. I do not carry a firearm so I can be a hero or get involved in confrontations that don't concern me. I carry to protect myself (or my family) from an event that would be unavoidable, with no means of eluding & my life is being threatened. Using my firearm is the ultimate last resort when you have no other options. Trust me, I will take any other measure that I can to avoid harming another. A super bright flashlight (at night) in the eyes to gain seconds to elude or pepper spray are good alternatives.

 

It is better to have it & not need it than need it & not have it.

Edited February 11, 2005 by des2

[yurt_boy 0]

Tokageko, I'm not trying to put words in KYSoldier's mouth here, but just responding to your question based on my point of view. As citizens, we can only take so many preventative measures. We can do "everything right" and "nothing wrong" and still run the risk of encountering a sociopath, drug addict or career criminal. If and when that circumstance occurs, do you want to be the immediate focus of the "bad guy?" Here's a purely hypothetical scenario: You're in a market, buying some baby food, when a masked gunman storms in and starts to rob the place. At first, you do the responsible/adviseable thing of taking mental notes and preparing to be the best witness possible. The robber orders everyone to lay on the ground. This is typical armed robbery stuff like the movies, so everyone complies. Then he starts shooting people in the back. IF you were carrying openly, he'll see your gun and guess who gets shot first. IF you were carrying concealed, he won't know it, giving you the "element of surprise" and the ability to defend yourself and others. Sure, that's an extreme example, but not THAT extreme. In this day of rising crime and "domestic terrorism," the odds that anyone will be forced into an armed encounter of some sort are going up incrementally. By taking the first step of deciding to arm yourself, you're leveling the playing field somewhat. We'll still always be a step behind because our involvement will be reactionary. We can cut down on our reaction time by constantly being vigilant. We can increase our chance for survival by not allowing the bad guy to know we are armed until the time he sees the muzzle flash.

[KySoldier 2]

Tokageko: You didn't really take the "other side" very well. The other side would be to say "in a country with the most guns in the world, how does more guns make this a safer place." To which my response would be much like Yurt's, concealed carry puts more guns in the hands of qualified individuals to help even the playing the field.

 

As for my statement of being prepared when the time comes, the scenerio laid out by Yurt is one of those times. If the bad guy steps in and then pulls his gun, the open carry guy will be the first one shot. Concealed carry is your "ace in the hole." You can very effectively end as assualt by being prepared with a good weapon, with considerable power, that you have trained with for that purpose.

 

Oh, and as for running away, KY law states that lethal force against an attacker must be the last resort. They don't want vigilante cops with guns out there.

 

Reasons for shooting the attacker include, preventing your own death or serious injury, rape, kidnapping, or to prevent burglary or arson of your home. You are allowed to protect others with deady force if that person being attacked would be justified the same as you in using deadly force. You are not protected under the law (as self defense) if you are the initial aggressor or if you had the chance to avoid the attack. Therefore, you shouldn't seek out bad people, but rather, if confronted and given no other option, you are wrranted to use deadly force for the reasons stated above.

 

I hope you believe what I have told you; I just summarized the KY laws on the matter.

 

EDIT: I present my source documentation.

Edited February 11, 2005 by KySoldier

[vjor 2]

[Tokageko 8]

Thanks for the responses guys. I would like to point out though, that as far as taking the other side goes, I hadn't offered any arguments yet. Not that this makes my last post a "good job" of "taking the other side", but rather to say that I haven't begun giving any reasons for open carry yet.

 

As for the reason you have given for preferring to carry a concealed weapon, I can't agree completely with all of them. To start off, I do think that carrying openly would cause problems with some other law-abiding citizens. I can easily believe that normal people, just going about their business, could become scared and make a scene. There are no flaws in that argument.

 

Now, I would like to make a few comments on the subject of an openly carried weapon making one a target. I sincerely doubt that under any "normal circumstances" another person would be stupid enough to try to take a person's gun out of his own holster. There are places where this could happen, but frankly, I don't tend to venture into that side of town. For someone operating under different circumstances, such as living in a bad part of town, or in a college dorm room, it would make a lot of sense to keep your handgun with you at all times. In these cases, I think that concealment is even warranted.

 

Of course, I also must admit that if a given person does not know how to keep possession of his/her own gun, then I have very little sympathy for them. Part of this is situational awareness: knowing and recognizing potential problems, and also having plans to deal with them when they occur. I don't let very many people even get close to me in public, let alone anyone I have a suspicious feeling about. Granted, the population here is not as dense as in larger cities; but again that's a matter of degree and context.

 

Having a weapon at one's disposal (any weapon) brings with it the responsibility of increased awareness and care in one's actions. That said, I believe wholeheartedly that the open carrying of arms acts as a deterrent to crime. This is mostly because criminals prefer unarmed victims. However, in areas where it is (or has been) the case that the open carry of weapons is normal, it also has to do with the fact that those carrying the weapons generally feel a sense of duty to their fellow civilians. It's not enough to protect yourself and your family. We are part of a larger society that must be guarded. That would be the ideal as I see it anyway: Citizens as a first line of defense. But that's not what we're here to talk about. ; )

 

Now, I must mention the scenarios that were brought up. As I have heard it, having known a few criminals during my life (all of them on work release), most of them don't want to go through any more work than they have to... or take any more risk than they have to. I find it extremely doubtful that during say, a bank robbery, the criminals in question are just going to shoot anyone whom they can see has a gun. That escalates the situation automatically and they know it. If they start shooting hostages/whatever, the police certainly won't think twice about shooting the criminals. In a case like that, I would say that you'd be more likely to have your gun taken from you, or to be commanded to get rid of it, than to be shot just for having it.

 

Terrorism presents a different situation completely. I agree: concealed carry would be the most effective option in a case such as those that occurred on 9/11. However, Muslims have also been known to just set off bombs without any warning, in which case a concealed firearm does not make an immediate difference in the outcome.

 

Finally, if one or more people enter the building/other space that you are in, with weapons drawn and looking to kill, then your first priority is finding cover. Your life is immediately in danger, so I wouldn't blame you for drawing your weapon. In fact, if there is no means of escape it may be your only choice. If you can get away, I'd say do it; for the purpose of getting help. No one I've heard of carries enough ammunition for an extended firefight against multiple assailants.

 

The key here, as I see it, is being realistic about the circumstances you are most likely to encounter and adequately preparing yourself to face them. If I had a choice in the matter, I would carry openly as a rule, but be prepared for concealed carry if I thought my plans warranted it. That's part of the responsibility of carrying a weapon: forethought. There is no one solution that will work for everyone all the time. Thank you again for your time.

[Tokageko 8]

Update: Please ignore what I wrote about the police "not thinking twice". That was an error of ignorance on my part. I still do believe that the situation would be worse for the criminal who killed one or more people in the course of a robbery, as compared to one who did not. Pretty sure that's common sense though.

 

Oh, and KYsoldier: The "other side" I was speaking of is this- "Carrying arms openly is better than carry concealed."

Edited February 11, 2005 by Tokageko

[Doerdie 0]

I carry most of the time. The one thing one needs to remember is that they have to avoid confrontations from stupid stuff like road rage, ignorrent people and the like. Along with the firearm comes the need for a very thick skin. Open carry will invite ignorant people of all kinds, especially those with a few beers in them.

I have always walked away from a fight, and will walk earlier now that I carry a gun. If I leave a confrontation, am followed and confronted again, then I will stand my ground. That is when the "element of suprise" will be of my benefit. If I draw, I will simply say "leave me alone", if they move towards me I will shoot till whoever stops moving, me or them .

If I am carrying openly, the BG knows:

A. I have a gun

B. When I am reaching for a gun

C. What to do to stop me from reaching my gun

Carrying concealed he will know none of the above, and puts me in better control of the situation. Plus, I don't have kids pointing at me, people staring at me , and people in general calling the cops everytime I am in public.

[Doerdie 0]

I am glad to see KY (in KY Soldier) stands for Kentucky....I was thinkin that it....never mind

[KySoldier 2]

That said, I believe wholeheartedly that the open carrying of arms acts as a deterrent to crime.

 

I find it extremely doubtful that during say, a bank robbery, the criminals in question are just going to shoot anyone whom they can see has a gun.  In a case like that, I would say that you'd be more likely to have your gun taken from you, or to be commanded to get rid of it, than to be shot just for having it. 

 

No one I've heard of carries enough ammunition for an extended firefight against multiple assailants.

vjor: Waiting period, what? not in my state.

 

 

Tokageko: Open carry may be a detterent to crime, but even in KY, most places around here have a problem with you in their store (or wherever). I just heard last night, from a guy who has a license, that while at Waffle House, he sat at the counter and his gun was exposed on his belt as he ate. The police were quietly called and when he heard HIS NAME CALLED (how'd they get that anyway?), he saw 10 cops waiting. He stepped outside like they wanted and they surrounded him, asking about the gun. He told them he had a license, they took the gun off him, he showed them the license, they gave it back, he put it back in its holster, and started back inside. They said they preferred him to leave it in the car, he told them "no, I have a license, and thanks to you guys my food is getting cold." And that was it.

 

If you carry openly and a robbery (or whatever) occurs and they take the gun from you, then why even have a gun in the first place??

 

As for a "firefight," the idea isn't to have a shootout, but rather, when you carry concealed, you get the drop on them. I carry a HK USP Compact in 45, it holds 9 rounds, I figure I can get 4 people with it if they don't see me comin. Notice, I didn't say sustained shootout.

 

When I'm in an area of greater than usual danger, I already have it in my hand, but still concealed. Otherwise, I can draw from my concealed holster and fire 3 accurate rounds in 3 1/2 seconds. I figure if I work on that, I could do even better.

 

Doerdie: Nice, I never thought of that till my girlfriend saw my name and laughed, she saw what you wrote and laughed again, thanks

Edited February 12, 2005 by KySoldier

[IndyArms 10,186]

I am glad to see KY (in KY Soldier) stands for Kentucky

 

You too???? LOL... go figure....

 

 

[Tokageko 8]

Well, I think I can see the point of "the element of surprise" for a confrontation with an unarmed person, but I still have trouble with the idea of getting the jump on a criminal armed with a gun. As far as I know, they tend to be the ones who do the surprising. I also agree that avoidance is a good policy. Good as a first line of defense that is.

 

As far as other people are concerned, they aren't ever going to get used to people being armed unless they can see it. If someone finds out you have a concealed handgun, their first reaction is likely to be one of fear. That seems to have been the case with the guy at the Waffle House. If people start seeing more guns carried openly, eventually they will get used to it.

 

Doerdie: Once again, I wonder what bad guys are going to be going after someone whom they know has a gun? Aside from the suicidal or insane (legal definition), there aren't many who would take the chance. As I said before, if there's an increased chance of running into those people, carrying concealed is probably the best option. However, under normal circumstances, I really do not think it is necessary. If the "bad guy" doesn't see a potential victim, then there's not going to be a situation to control.

 

And with regard to having your gun taken away, in the hypothetical bank robbery or whatever, I was meaning to make two points clear. One, you won't necessarily be the first target of aggression just because you are carrying a gun. The other: sometimes you have to pick your battles. There are times that drawing your gun makes no sense. If shooting is the best option, by all means: do it. If it isn't, then don't.

 

As was mentioned, "thick skin" helps and so does a healthy dose of patience. Honestly I have a hard time remembering sometimes that not everyone can deal with name calling, put-downs, etc. I've always had to deal with it. Shooting shouldn't be the only option you have available to defend yourself, or protect your interests... especially if the other party isn't armed.

[KySoldier 2]

I agree, people do freak out when they see a gun in public, but I don't really believe that its because they aren't used to it, but rather, they feel uncomfortable because the man carrying it isn't in a policeman's uniform. No one thinks twice about cops, but a plain clothed individual is pretty scary to the big masses of largely ignorant people.

 

As for the hypothetical bank, would you carry openly into a bank? You can you know, but I bet they'd ask you to leave, like a lot of places. And you being in the bank isn't going to stop the crime, the guys would expect to have a few guns in a bank(security). So, you carry concealed, you have the protection, everyone around you acts normal, and you aren't breaking the law.

[Bvamp 604]

most would be muggers tend to look for that bulge in your coat telling them they will be shot if they try to rob you....

[Tokageko 8]

Thanks for the input Bvamp.

 

Yeah, people freak out about a lot of things KYsoldier, but times change. Unfortunately it seems they only change if someone pushes though. Now, I'm not, I repeat, not, saying that everyone should start carrying openly right now. Believe me when I say that I know gradual is better. That's what I'd want. More people to start doing it. It's got to start somewhere, and I don't think this is a bad time for it. Many non-gun-owners I've had the pleasure of speaking with are more misinformed than anything. There's only one way to cure that.

 

As far as banks go, mine know me pretty well. The same is true with a lot of the businesses I frequent. I make it a point to get to know the workers, and let them get to know me. I seriously doubt that any of the people I am reffering to would have a problem with me carrying a weapon. Hell, they'd probably be more curious than anything.

 

As far as the hypothetical bank robbing goes, maybe the criminals did plan for weapons among the security gaurds and possibly a few patrons. Even if they did, there's still a chance that additional arms they hadn't counted on could disuade them (depending on their numbers, planning, arms, mental state, etc.)... especially if half of the customers were carrying. To be honest, I'm not going to be looking to stop any bank robbers. If it came down to being in that situation, there would be no clear cut way to deal with it. I think that in a majority of cases, and I may be wrong, that shooting right away (that element of surprise is lost if you don't use it) could uneccessarily endanger more people. Losing some money and credit cards, ID, whatever, would be preferable to losing your life.

 

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't count on drawing and shooting a concealed gun, or an openly carried gun, before someone who is already pointing a gun at you has a chance to pull the trigger. It seems very unrealistic.

[G O B 3,516]

CC is the way to go. NEVER let the other guy know what your hole card is!

 

If BG THINKS you are carrying it may save your life. Wash. D.C. 1968 3 weeks after the riots. I was waiting for a bus in a neighborhood that was about 50% burnt out. 2 of the local 'crew' come up and try to get on either side of me. I stepped twoards the street and leaned back on the lamppost, putting my right hand in my jacket under my left armpit. 'Crew' dudes ask for cigarette. Took out cigarette pack with LEFT hand and shook three up. Dudes each take one and I put one in my mouth,then deliberatly put pack away and took out lighter,again LEFT hand. Right hand still under left armpit. Light cigaretts,put lighter back in shirtpocket. Dudes NEVER took their eyes off my right hand. Made smalltalk for maybe 5 or 6 minuits untill bus came. Dudes left when bus was 1/2 block away. There wasn't anything but SWEAT (and PLENTY of that) under that arm! Good instincts and a half decent pokerface saved the G O B's ASS that day!

 

G O B

[KySoldier 2]

Good point GOB, but I'm guessing you'd probably have felt a little better if there had been a gun in your hand huh? If someone sees me in a situation like that, there's already a gun in my hand, you just don't see it.

[Tokageko 8]

Excellent use of psychological warfare GOB. I still bet they wouldn't have tried at all if they could have seen a gun on your hip (or elsewhere) from the beginning.

 

 

 

Edit: Come on, someone ELSE has to have an oppinion here. Please?

Edited February 13, 2005 by Tokageko

[KySoldier 2]

Then again, if they knew he had a gun for sure (because they could see it), they may have just rushed him and taken it.

 

That's why I'd recommend doing what I do, have it in your hand when you are in areas like that. You're hand could be in a jacket pocket or pouch pocket on a hooded sweatshirt, whatever, just have it ready. No one knows its there, no one suspects that you could fire at a moments notice. If you are confronted, you don't have to make any quick moves to get it from a holster. You just make sure he's got a weapon and that you're life is in danger.....POW

 

Yes, I wish someone would add another point of view not yet discussed.

[shadow 0]

This may be alittle off topic but what do you guys think of the walther p99 are they a good quility? I have shot a few handguns but have never owned one. The walther p99 feels good in the hand but I've never used one. I think s&w also makes a clone. I'm thinking this will be my first handgun for an muli purpose handgun.

 

I agree with the concealed. I would think the element of surprise would be much better.

You wouldn't have people calling the police or being concerned that you have a gun.

I know I shouldn't be concerned with what people think, but people tend to be scared of guns. There seems to be more and more people every day that have never handled a gun. It seems like kids are being taught to run away, call the police and just hope for the best if something bad happens. Instead of defending yourself let yourself be the victom. It seems like more and more younger people are being tought that guns are evil.

alot of times when someone does handle a gun for the first time they have very little knowledge of safty and common sense because they have never been exsposed to firearms

[Tokageko 8]

Yeah KY, I geuss if they really wanted GOB in particular, or were just plain crazy, they might have just rushed him. Of course, in that case someone could have just walked up behind him quietly and stabbed him in the kidney. No gun is going to help with that.

 

I geuss I take it for granted that hand-to-hand combat training comes before any weapons training. I really thought that people who carry a gun all the time, such as police officers, might put some work into making sure they knew how to keep another person from taking away their weapon. Turns out I'm wrong.... BIG TIME. Apparently more police officers are shot with their own guns than anything else. How stupid is that?

 

All in all, I think hand-to-hand combat training is something everyone should go through. GOB had the right idea by having his back against something so someone couldn't come up behind him. I'm sure he was also watching the area for possible danger. Awareness saves lives. He also did a very smart thing by not letting them get right next to him. I geuss if for some reason hand-to-hand training is NOT part of a person's knowledge base, concealed carry is the best option.

 

I think that's acceptable for older people, and those with disabilities. Hell, I'd probably even suggest it to someone who just bought a gun for self protection a few days ago and hasn't had time yet for any training. For everyone else, I'd say that adequate training in the military arts is part of the responsibility that comes with carrying a weapon. Shame on the for not seeing to it right away.

 

Shadow: There's a thread a bit further down that specifically deals with guns that are good for concealed carry. Whether or not that helps you, I have no idea. None-the-less, I think that anything actually made by Walther is going to be pretty well made. I, personally, wouldn't touch the S&W clones. The most important things are (in the order that I thought of them): that the gun fits your hand, the safety is easy for you to find, the magazines drop free, the trigger doesn't have a 1/2 pound of gravel in it, the sights are easy to aquire, and that it feeds hollow-points reliably. Did I miss anything?

Edited February 14, 2005 by Tokageko

[KySoldier 2]

Make sure to get the largest caliber you can shoot well with. Carry ammo designed for self defense like Hydrashok, Cor-bon, or Extreme Shock. Practice!

[yurt_boy 0]

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot here. Sorry if I come across as a jerk. Here's the deal; Regardless of what your politician or I-ain't-seen-the-streets-since-my-promotion-in-'79 PD admin hack might tell you, it's not getting safer out there. It's getting worse. And make no mistake, we're not as safe in our "good" neighborhoods as we'd like to think. Where do you think BG comes to steal a car or burg a house? They aren't looking for their neighbor's '82 Gremlin. They want YOUR nice car and your wife's nice jewelry. A VAST majority of street criminals are on drugs. Many are mentally ill to some degree. They don't need a logical reason to take you out. They don't think like we do. They don't respond to fear, pain or threats. A gun isn't for scaring people. It's for shooting people.

 

I hope you eventually see the problem with the "it ain't gonna happen to me" mentality. If you go the rest of your life walking around CCW or unarmed and NOTHING happens to you, you're lucky. If, on the other hand, you carry openly, you're begging for trouble. It's not fair. It's not the way it should be. Hell, it doesn't even make sense, but you're going to draw unwanted attention.

 

How could you possibly think that you wouldn't be less of a target if BG sees you have a gun? It would make you MORE of a target because criminals take out threats first. Violent criminals are EXPERTS at sizing you up and rating you as a potential victim or threat. And you're right, in a hypothetical robbery situation, you may want to exercise restraint and NOT draw your weapon. But if you're carrying openly, chances are this ISN'T going to be an option. Once he sees your gun, it's you and him. There's no longer a choice on your part. You made your choice when you carried openly.

 

Now, as far as you being hyper-aware and not letting someone take your gun from you, it's a nice thought but not realistic. If you're carrying openly, a half-wit criminal CAN get your gun. They actually practice it in prison, for God's sake! It happens to uniformed cops all the time. I knew a cop who carried an EMPTY pistol in his holster and a loaded one concealed (velcro shirt front) after several of his friends lost their guns ... and lives ... to a quick grab. Think about how many times you stand in line or sit down at a restaurant. Reach up to grab a can of SPAM off a shelf or hang up the gas nozzle. All it takes is someone with the balls ... and the knowledge of where you keep your gun. Next time you see an outlaw biker, check him out. Chances are you'll see an empty holster on his belt. This is for two reasons. (First, it's usually illegal to carry in a bar, so the bartender sees the empty holster and thinks the gun is out in a saddlebag.) Second, it lulls a potential enemy into A) thinking the biker isn't armed and concealing the true location of his gun.

 

I wish you were right about "immunizing" the public to seeing weapons. Maybe that'd work, but I doubt it. A more likely scenario is that more laws would be passed.

 

Obviously, everyone's got to make up their own mind about this. All I can say is that Bruce Lee didn't wear a shirt that said, "I CAN KICK YOUR ASS," so we shouldn't advertise our advantage either.

 

Yurt_Boyyyyyyy-Out!

[k_dawg 0]

I have a 2003 Walther P99 ( full size ), conventional DA/SA in Titanium Finish. It's been a great gun. I fire it perhaps the most out of all my weapons, as 9mm is super cheap. The only "real" difference between the P99 and the SW99 is the slide and "official" warrancy. I couldn't see any real quality/fit difference in teh slides, I just liked the titanium finish. I do require a new main spring ever ~1k-1.5k rounds or so. The first time was under warranty, they just asked when/where it was purchased. The second time was out of warrany, they just pulled up my records, and sent me a new spring no charge.

 

I do carry an H&K P2000sk thou

[G O B 3,516]

What Yurt said! If you hang it out for god and all the world to see, BG will just pretend to pay no attention and whack you in the head with a brick when you walk by. We are not dealing with rational beings. The mental process goes like this..."'mofo gosa purdy gun. I likes it. Hit im inna haid 'n take it"...

Anything shiny or expensive looking (or that would be perfect to rob liquor stores with) is just chum that attracts land sharks.

 

That said-let's get back to CC pistols. !. does it feel 'natural' in your hand? 2. Does it handle well (draw, point, safety operation, ect.) 3. Can you HIT anything with it? What works for anyone else may suck for you, and vice-versa.

 

G O B

[vjor 2]

I just smile, I must be and idiot, but to be realistic yurt_boy makes a lot of

sense, he sounds like one of my instructors, but hey this mad Spanish

never have see any action apart from Guatemala, Nicaragua and

Salvador.

 

And I still think that if you carry open you are a target to any one

that is going to commit a crime or simple wanted to take your

iron from you, unless you live in crime free city perfectville.

 

By the way G O B you have a set of big cojones.

 

Any way I think if some one is onto you, you may have 50/50 chances

of coming out in one piece or at list not in to many pieces, if you carry conceal,

if open well is your funeral and not mine.

 

And yes KySoldier in here is a 5-day waiting period for any gun you buy

unless you have CC lic.

 

Hun walther p99 good gun, SA/DA the S&W 99 that I have seen

are DA Only do not like DA only. love my S&W 459 old gun

never have a trouble with it SA/DA.

 

Sorry for my broken English, not to good at typing a second language

or typing at all.

[Tokageko 8]

Yeah, like I said: If you're old, disabled, inept, or lazy, concealed carry is probably the best option. Hyper-aware? What are you smoking? I'm talking about what should be part of any self-defense regimen. I size up other people all the time, probably about the same way criminals do. My point was that a gun is not your first line of defense.

 

As for people's guns being taken away, I think I mentioned that already. Hell, even before my last post, I agreed that if you're going to be downtown at night it's probably better to carry concealed. It's all a matter of what your situation is. Oh, and about that 'practice' thing that you mentioned, I wonder how much more obviious this could be. Yeah, criminals practice crime. Civilians NEED to practice their defensive skills. If you don't, then it's YOUR funeral. Are you too busy to practice? Have you never been taught anything about self-defense? Are you to lazy to be aware of your environment? If anyone can answer yes to any of these questions, then it IS their funeral. On the other hand, if you answer no to all of these questions (maybe even to just a few!), then no one had better grab you, run at you unexpectedly, draw a weapon in your presence, or threaten your life, otherwise it will be THEIR funeral. Do I suggest killing everyone who even looks at you funny (exaggeration for effect)? No. Do I suggest being ready to remove yourself from danger at the drop of a hat? Yes. Am I saying you should be prepared to do harm to others if it's the best option? Oh yeah.

 

As far as crime statistics go... I don't know what to tell you on that one. If extreme violence is something you see every day, carry a GPS and have an artillery battery on stand-by, just waiting for your command. If you live in a war zone, then that's a fine way to do it. I don't. As I've heard it, violent crime is on it's way down, has been for a while. I'm not dropping my defences because of it, but I'm damn glad to hear it anyway.

 

I see it like this: An armed society is a polite society. Ever been to Israel? How much effort is being spent on getting gun owners to be aware of politics? Why not on getting people in general to be aware of possible crimes and what to do about it? Let's declare war against violent criminals. Watch them in prison and steal their trade secrets. Broadcast it on the evening news.

 

Oh, and you want to talk about criminals sizing up potential victims? Shall I quote Bvamp? It goes something like this: If you know how to handle yourself, they're going to see it whether you're carrying a gun or not (open or concealed). By your logic, these BGs would, ahem, "take out" anybody that they thought could hurt them, period. Not the case.

 

By the way, wonderful debate guys. You're doing a good job. Still waiting for anybody else to jump in. Come on, we won't bite.... usually. ; )