PatriotMusic 0 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Hi, I just got my Saiga-12 back from Cadiz Gun Works and took it out for the first time. It was set to position #2 by them so I started with some Winchester #7 shot I got from Walmart. Every round failed to eject, so I changed it to position #1 and tried again. Same thing so I tried some 00 buck and then some slugs. No problems at all. After about 15 rounds, the following ammo cycled properly: Remington 2 3/4 00BK Winchester 2 3/4 1 Oz. Slugs Federal 2 3/4, 1 1/8 Oz, #7 1/2 Shot but Winchester 2 3/4, 1 1/8 Oz. #7 1/2 shot will still not eject properly. Anyone else have a similar experience or any advice (other than to not use the Winchester #7)? Thanks, PatriotMusic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Just about everyone has had problems with the Winchester mart mart loads. That's why I mark the outside of the box with the Fed 1 1/8 oz load as the test fired with load.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Don't use Winchester. Easy fix! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gkcf 8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I use winchester stuff. No problems at all. I've blown through 3 drums loaded full of #6 game loads without a hitch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PatriotMusic 0 Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Just about everyone has had problems with the Winchester mart mart loads. That's why I mark the outside of the box with the Fed 1 1/8 oz load as the test fired with load.... Thank you for the reply and the repair. It's really nice to have a working Saiga-12 and Cadiz was a pleasure working with. I noticed when I fired the Winchester, it sounded whimpy compared to the Federal, but the specs appear the same. Just out of curiosity, do you know what makes them different? Thanks again. PatriotMusic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Remember a lot of the time the things you buy at WallyWorld are essentially much cheaper versions than you'd buy at any other store. This is a common practice for manufacturer's who sell in bulk to them, so they can keep their margins down. I don't really shop at there any more, so I don't know about the Winchester ammo, though I have read many many posts here about how people have trouble with crap bought at WallyWorld. I still find it absurd that there are people who claim to be patriots, who shop there; real patriots supporting a company which 90% of the stock comes from the People's Republic of China. Bitch about Obama's socialist plot and spend your money at a company which essentially supports a Communist Dictatorship. I just don't get it. Edited May 22, 2009 by vbrtrmn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I use winchester stuff. No problems at all. I've blown through 3 drums loaded full of #6 game loads without a hitch. That's Winchester with a heavier load, (and more powder), than the stuff the op's talking about. The el cheapo Winchester bird shot is the problematic product. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) I had that problem too. easiest fix is to buy walmart federal for the same $$. I wanted my gun to shoot any ammo I put in it so $35 to KA for this Tappet. It now shoots everything and has just enough compliance parts to legally used with a us made hi cap. So if you aren't switching out your foreend or something, or doing the full conversion, it covers your butt legally too. Also it drops right in in maybe 2 minutes. Just give him a phone call and a visa # and you will be good to go. I got mine in 5 days. As for what makes them different, I don't know too much, but the federal smokes more and smells strongly of sulfur like fire works. It seems to be a lot dirtier, and I notice more residue and powder flakes in the front of the gas tube when I use it. The federal bulk pack also seems to have a little tougher hull material that is a little slicker which may effect feeding and extraction force, and is less likely to become deformed by the bolt, etc. Edited May 22, 2009 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gkcf 8 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 That's Winchester with a heavier load, (and more powder), than the stuff the op's talking about. The el cheapo Winchester bird shot is the problematic product. Oh so wallmart sells shittier, cheaper stuff than other box brand stores? Or is it that winchester AA stuff? I'd like to know so I don't buy it by mistake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Wally World is not the only place selling Winchester Universal. .............................. There are significant differences between the various Winchester rounds. The following has been my experience, in my 3 port, Gunfixer plug equipped shottie... The most maligned (and rightfully so IME) Winchester round is the Winchester Universal sold in the value pack, very light recoil/ low brass, most will have a tough time cycling these. Some S12s, those with one or more of the following, 4 ports, enlarged ports, 25% reduced recoil springs and/or hammer springs, Gunfixer plug on #3, will be more likely to reliably cycle this round. I loaded out a 12rnd mag with these... Forget about it, might as well be a single shot bolt action shottie... Just not powerful enough to cycle most semi-auto. ............................... The Winchester Super Target & AA Light Target, has been hit & miss, I have to have my Gunfixer on #3 and a relatively clean/well lubed rails/bolt carrier. I get alot of FTE with these. ..................................... Every other Winchester round I've used, Supreme, AA Heavy Target, Heavy Game, Super X (game/heavy game/high brass game) and other various buck/slug, has all functioned just fine on a appropriate gas setting. Edited May 22, 2009 by ChileRelleno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PatriotMusic 0 Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I had that problem too. easiest fix is to buy walmart federal for the same $$. I wanted my gun to shoot any ammo I put in it so $35 to KA for this Tappet. It now shoots everything and has just enough compliance parts to legally used with a us made hi cap. So if you aren't switching out your foreend or something, or doing the full conversion, it covers your butt legally too. Also it drops right in in maybe 2 minutes. Just give him a phone call and a visa # and you will be good to go. I got mine in 5 days. As for what makes them different, I don't know too much, but the federal smokes more and smells strongly of sulfur like fire works. It seems to be a lot dirtier, and I notice more residue and powder flakes in the front of the gas tube when I use it. The federal bulk pack also seems to have a little tougher hull material that is a little slicker which may effect feeding and extraction force, and is less likely to become deformed by the bolt, etc. Yeah, Joey is a friend of mine. Did some night shooting with him a couple months ago. I actually already ordered one for compliance at his recommendation, but didn't know it would help whimpier rounds cycle. Thanks for the heads up. I'll try it when the tappet arrives and let you know. PatriotMusic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 the dished out front side of the tappet gives more initial gas volume and therefore more cocking force. think of it like a hemi piston in a car. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PatriotMusic 0 Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 I still find it absurd that there are people who claim to be patriots, who shop there; real patriots supporting a company which 90% of the stock comes from the People's Republic of China. Bitch about Obama's socialist plot and spend your money at a company which essentially supports a Communist Dictatorship. I just don't get it. Look, I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I am willing to have an honest discussion. (Maybe this is best done in another area of the boards though.) In this thread, we're talking about crappy American-made ammo sold at an American-owned store. The reason so little is made in United States is because of the unions... voting for higher wages despite lower quality... the entitlement syndrome. (The same people often vote for minimum wage laws for themselves while encouraging under-the-table illegal immigrants, making it all but impossible for small businesses to compete without employing illegals) GM is going bankrupt because equivalent foreign cars are several thousands of dollars cheaper since the foreign ones don't have the extra cost of the attached union pension deals made in Congress in the 70s. Similar foreign made cars are usually better quality too. The same thing applies to many low-tech products and services. I am a capitalist and a supporter of our Constitutional principles, not a nationalist. But I will not buy inferior quality, or far more expensive merchandise simply BECAUSE it's made in U.S.A. I will buy slightly higher-priced, made in U.S.A. stuff IF the quality is there. Either way, look at the big picture: China, Vietnam, etc. are leading in manufacturing (quantity). The rest of the world will buy from them no matter what we do. By buying from them, they in turn allow our companies access to their markets. This also gives us the ability to influence their culture... infect them with capitalism and some semblance of democratic ideas, particularly by their kids going to American universities and our pop culture. Tariffs or any other form of protectionism will hurt us more than it will them because they will retaliate. That will give Russia and the E.U. more international significance than us eventually, not to mention that if China stops buying the debt we continue to incur, or they dump their dollars, we're done financially. But then, I'm no nationalist. I think we should always allow natural market corrections like the bankrupting of the failed banks recently, not nationalization of them. National Socialism begins with exactly this sort of nationalist-driven protectionism. My 2 cents, PatriotMusic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ccpierce 0 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Wally World is not the only place selling Winchester Universal............................... There are significant differences between the various Winchester rounds. The following has been my experience, in my 3 port, Gunfixer plug equipped shottie... The most maligned (and rightfully so IME) Winchester round is the Winchester Universal sold in the value pack, very light recoil/ low brass, most will have a tough time cycling these. Some S12s, those with one or more of the following, 4 ports, enlarged ports, 25% reduced recoil springs and/or hammer springs, Gunfixer plug on #3, will be more likely to reliably cycle this round. I loaded out a 12rnd mag with these... Forget about it, might as well be a single shot bolt action shottie... Just not powerful enough to cycle most semi-auto. ............................... The Winchester Super Target & AA Light Target, has been hit & miss, I have to have my Gunfixer on #3 and a relatively clean/well lubed rails/bolt carrier. I get alot of FTE with these. ..................................... Every other Winchester round I've used, Supreme, AA Heavy Target, Heavy Game, Super X (game/heavy game/high brass game) and other various buck/slug, has all functioned just fine on a appropriate gas setting. I have always shot the el cheapo wal-mart crap (winchester universial) in my Remington 1100 20 gauge. The occasional stoppage in many years of use but overall no complaints for the price. However, I have not yet tried it in my S12, turns out I purchased a "vodka special" and have to wait on the warentee work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Just buy the Federal Bulk Pack that is right next to the Winchester Bulk Pack on the same shelf for the same price and be done with it. Winchester bulk pack is for pumps and O/U and S/S. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
slyguy 0 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) It is funny to me how many ppl want to spend hundreds on a gun and then pinch pennies on ammo. Read #4. Pretty much any target shot or light birdshot in Saigas is a waste IMO (assuming you aren't hunting tiny game). Yes, it's only 25-40 cents per round, but you will have tons of FTEs, probably go through gas pucks faster, and do more damage to your gun overall. If you insist on shooting tons of birdshot, I'd just spend the extra dime per shot and go with #4 (BB) size that will cycle much better. I guess you could try the Winchester AA SuperSport that Tony mentions on the link also? However, for just another dime per round over the #4 birdshot, you can get the 250rds case of Estate 00 or #4 buck from Cabelas... and they also give you a free waterproof shell box. You get a better round, realistic recoil to a HD situation where you'd be using buckshot, and less gas usage and tear on your gun, and the ammo box... that's the way to go IMO. Use your grandpa's birding shotgun as such, and use your Saiga cannon as such. Edited June 3, 2009 by slyguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Forgive my ignorance, but how does using low-brass birdshot, (like the Federal 1 1/8 oz), cause you to "go through gas pucks faster, and do more damage to your gun overall"? How could less gas pressure do more damage to the shotgun? Edited June 3, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
soundlzrd 0 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Forgive my ignorance, but how does using low-brass birdshot, (like the Federal 1 1/8 oz), cause you to "go through gas pucks faster, and do more damage to your gun overall"? How could less gas pressure do more damage to the shotgun? I would also like to know how it damages gas pucks. I am looking at getting KA's, but I dont want to damage it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 It is funny to me how many ppl want to spend hundreds on a gun and then pinch pennies on ammo. Read #4. Pretty much any target shot or light birdshot in Saigas is a waste IMO (assuming you aren't hunting tiny game). Yes, it's only 25-40 cents per round, but you will have tons of FTEs, probably go through gas pucks faster, and do more damage to your gun overall. If you insist on shooting tons of birdshot, I'd just spend the extra dime per shot and go with #4 (BB) size that will cycle much better. I guess you could try the Winchester AA SuperSport that Tony mentions on the link also? People use it to train with or plink because it's dirt cheap. You are the first I've heard suggest that using underpowered shells will ruin your shotgun. Care to elaborate? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 The KA tappet works, but is not a 100% guarantee. it counts as a compliance part. I also second the reccomendation for the federal bulk pack. Right now it is even dropped to $2 cheaper a case than the winchester, and it runs much better. (they were the same a few months ago.) I think the federal is a little dirtier, but it cycles much better, and has better hulls. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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