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#1 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 01:47 PM

I haven't made a consersion on my Saiga yet and I really don't plan too in the future.

The problem is that I really want to change my butt stock....its a bit too long for me. I was wondering if their are butt stocks availible for none conversion Saigas.

Also, I was wondering if there is another way to add a pistol grip. Thanks for your time.


I found the following in the forum. I am looking for something like this:


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#2 Wolverine

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 01:55 PM

agent 242

PM Pistonring8 on the pictured weapon. He had trouble and sold the stock. He then did the conversion as well.

Some guys have avoided the conversion and kept the FCG intact by using ACE conversion block and stock. A hole os bored theough the block to affix the pistol grip. I like the ACE stuff and have it on one of my 7.62's. It's expensive. Also there is a big challenge in getting to the required 4 US parts to make the gun legal once you begin modification to the stock approved rifle.

Many guys have wrestled with this same dilemma. I cannot recall any that didn't finally come to the conclusion to do the conversion. It is not hard and there are step by step instructions available.

If you need the conversion info give a hollar. Folks here are very helpful.

Wolverine

#3 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 02:23 PM

I really dislike the Sporter Stock. Its too damn long. I checked out the ACE conversion block and your right, its freaking expensive.

If I buy the block, where can I find a smaller butt stock. I don't want the folding stock though because its too expensive. Just want a smaller stock.

#4 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 02:37 PM

I just found the follow:

Bulgarian milled receiver buttstock with US-made black plastic pistol grip.
Item : B477

Will this work on an original Saiga or do I need the Ace Block in order to install a milled butt stock?

#5 Wolverine

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 04:28 PM

OK agent 242.

No the Bulgarian will not fit without mods because you have a stamped receiver not a milled. Also you need to use US parts to get to that 10 foreign parts or less to be legal. If you use a foreign buttstock you only aggravate that matter.

I have an idea. The ACE adaptor is only good for ACE stuff. But, you can buy an adjustable car stock for a reasonable price.

Tapco makes an US AK Car Stock with six adjustments for $50. I'm not certain if the adaptor is attached/included. Blackjacks has a 4 position carstock with adaptor for $55.

http://www.tapco.com...dept=10&last=10

http://www.blackjack...7e55bbd1ed5492e

http://www.redstararms.com/

It's a thought. What to you think?

Wolverine

Edited by Wolverine, 26 February 2005 - 04:31 PM.


#6 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:13 PM

you might get a wood stock (if you can find one someone will part with) and cut an inch or two off it....
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#7 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:26 PM

"No the Bulgarian will not fit without mods because you have a stamped receiver not a milled. Also you need to use US parts to get to that 10 foreign parts or less to be legal."

#8 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:27 PM

Ignore the message above..I messed up.

Wolverine:

"No the Bulgarian will not fit without mods because you have a stamped receiver not a milled. Also you need to use US parts to get to that 10 foreign parts or less to be legal."


Ok, so will any "stamped butt-stock" fit my orignal Saiga as long as its US made?

#9 Wolverine

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 05:58 PM

agent 242,

Yes with one proviso. The Saiga has a conventional AK receiver but the strange trigger arrange crowds things a little. If you pull the buttstock or look at the end of it through the receiver you will find the end is "cut out" to provide space for part of the FCG. If you use plastic or wood as Bvamp as suggested you could easily notch to accomodate the configuration. This assumes leaving the FCG intact and not adding the pistol grip.

I have seen grips worked into the stock, etc. It ain't that pretty and to be honest I'm doubt the legality without changing out 4 foreign parts for US.

If you want wood you can buy new from here:

http://www.ironwoodd...zAKproduct.html

K-var has wood too.

http://www.k-var.com...&1=271&2=-1&6=3

Hope this helps.

Wolverine

Edited by Wolverine, 26 February 2005 - 05:59 PM.


#10 pistonring8

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 06:30 PM

Hey look, its my old "Skorpion"! Somehow I knew that would come back to bite me in the a$$

I got that stock at Cabelas. It is also sold on www.gunsnstuff.net The F.A.C. catalog and I think the sportsmans guide/shooters guide. The stock is made for Remmington, Mossberg, Winchester... etc. shotguns. I had to make heavy modifications on it and cut off my Saiga stock to use as an adapter block. It took a bit of fabrication but it fit very nicely. Also, to comply with 922r I had to replace the gas piston, hammer, disconnector and magazine followers. (you could use US made magazines and install a feedramp) It took more labor and more money to use this stock legally than it would have if I would have done the conversion normally. I still had to take the reciever "apart" to change the fcg. I wanted an AK that was different from everybody elses. It was different alright! The stock had a button that would pop out and lock the stock into possition. When aiming at targets through my scope, this button would allow the stock to wiggle enough to throw off my shots by 5-6 inches! So I sold it to Froggie and decided to do the standard conversion.

I dont think a pistol grip constitutes a "non-sporting" rifle. A magazine capacity over 10 however does. So if you add a pistol grip you will be in a grey area of the law and should comply with 922r anyway.

The stock I used was very long. It was so long in fact, I had to stand sideways to shoot. This was ok with me because I shoot sideways anyway, but most shooters sit down to shoot. If you sit down to shoot, you would have a tough time with such a long stock.

I hope this helps....
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#11 vjor

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 08:08 PM

I install a pro AK builder’s internal receiver block and a Skeleton Stock 8 ½ inches long
in my saiga, they fit like a charm, they feel like a shouldering a Galil, really comfortable to the shoulder and your face aligns good with the iron sight of the rifle, plus I went to my gun dealer and try the tapco folding stock, the FSE krink stock and the ACE and well the ACE was the winner; this thing can take a linking and keep on ticking.

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#12 Onepoint

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 08:51 PM

I hate to have this sounds like spam, but I have made pistolgrip stocks that drop in withoiut converting. There are pictures in threads elsewhere on the forum

I am waiting on parts before the next ones can be finished and ready to go.

#13 Wolverine

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:28 PM

Onepoint,

Do you use "highcap" mags with your modified buttstock and pistolgrip configuration? If so, don't you think that 922r applies requiring at least three other USA parts on the Saiga 7.62 to keep foreign parts to ten or less?

Wolverine

Edited by Wolverine, 26 February 2005 - 10:29 PM.


#14 agent_242

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 11:58 PM

I think I am going to saw 2 inches off the original stock. I called a gun smith and they told me it could be down.

I can be contempt without a pistol grip, I just need the stock to be shortened so I can have my nose touching the dust cover (will help me maintain a good zero).

Tomorrow I am going to the gun smith so he can take a look at the rifle. I'll let you guys know what will happen.

Thanks for all your help.

#15 agent_242

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:08 AM

I was looking around the forum again and I found this:

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This is from member SaigaShooter.

This is what I want...Its beautiful. Do any of you guys know where he bought the butt stock?

#16 saan2112

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:16 AM

he made it i think

#17 agent_242

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:19 AM

Yea, just read into it. I sent him a message, asking him if he has any extras.

#18 SaigaShooter

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:02 AM

Oh Crap! I mis-understood your PM! I thought you were looking for the original stock.

I don't have any extra stocks like this, and have yet to test this one, should be fine though. If I test it, and it works fine, I'd make one for ya for a small fee (if it works good)
-SS-

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#19 Wolverine

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:12 AM

SaigaShooter,

How does 922r factor in with this mod? Are you simply leaving it stock Russian other than the buttstock with grip change? Since it takes highcaps and now has a pistol grip (via mod.) and is a foreign import rifle how do you escape the requirements of 922r? Or are you just betting it likely will never be an issue so why spend the money, etc.?

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#20 agent_242

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:21 AM

SaigaShooter, please e-mail me the price at daniel.garciaascanio@us.army.mil if you decide to make me one. Thanks =)

#21 -Indy-

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:24 AM

If its an american made stock, it will help...according to that GREY area... as nothing is converted... just removing one russian part...

if you did the FCG, it would not work, then.... kinda a catch 22, there... youd have to go with a DIFFERENT PG/Stock setup....


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#22 Wolverine

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 09:55 AM

Gang,

I'm just a little concerned that some of the new guys are not familiar with 922r requirements and may be taking risky shortcuts without being informed. If they fully understand and decide to take the risk anyway then we have done all we can do. I'd hate to see things denegrate to the point where folks are making cost effective changes without considering the legal implications.

There was a time when 922r was a high profile topic. We should not lose sight of it. The last thing we need is a bunch of non-compliant Saiga's floating around bringing unwanted attention after discovery.

http://forum.saiga-1...p?showtopic=387

To that end Bvamp has created a new legal resource area on this forum.

Wolverine

Edited by Wolverine, 27 February 2005 - 10:43 AM.


#23 Wolverine

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 10:02 AM

Agent 242,

if you want to just change out the buttstock without getting into the quagmire of pistolgrips, high caps and the legal requirements of 922r why dont you try changing the stock out for a shorter synthetic like these? It is done all the time.....usually with the conversion.

The cost is $40 plus shipping. Nato length is 1.25 inches longer than the Warsaw buttstock.

I think this would be easier and maybe cheaper than cutting your Saiga buttstock. If you take the endcap off you will see that a soon as you shave and inch or more you have lost the formed screw holders preventing reattachment of the endcap without cobbling something such as gluing, etc.

http://www.k-var.com...&1=228&2=-1&6=1

Wolverine

Edited by Wolverine, 27 February 2005 - 10:05 AM.


#24 SaigaShooter

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 10:44 AM

in regards to 922r, if you just drop it in place, it would be illegal. Because you are adding an "evil" pg. you need to swap out 4 more parts for it to be legal. you could do this by using us magazine parts (spring, follower, floor plate) and then you could replace the gas piston, or try to make a handguard (thats my next project)

And here's just a question of mine, is the 10 round mag considered to be high capacity, or does it vary from state to state?
-SS-

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#25 RDSWriter

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 11:37 AM

The 10 rd mag is not a hi cap.

The easiest way to understand 922r is that the firearm must be importable in the configuration that you are assembling. The exception to this is IF the firearm was imported in the configuration (pre-89 for all AWB features) or (pre-99 for thumbholes with the ability to accept hi capcity magazines).

This is definitely a grey area as a result of the 1999 BATF interpretation that 'the ability to accept a hi capacity magazine is unsporting" They based their logic on the fact that - at the time - the AWB was in place and (new) high capacity magazines were 'unsporting' and illegal for civilian ownership. All magazines with a capcity greater than 10 that were manufactured after Sept 14, 1994 were considered 'unsporting' (except for .22 cal tubes).

Hence, the ATF reinterpreted the 'unsporting' clause from the 1968 GCA and no longer allows semiautomatic (rifles) to be imported if they can accept hi-cap mags. Stupid regulation, but the law nonetheless. NOTE: It could have been MUCH worse as they could have required pistol manufacturers to modify their receivers to not accept hi cap mags too.

With the expiration of the AWB, the ATF has not changed their interpretation that the ability to accept a hi capacity magazine is unsporting... but the law that they based this interpretation on (the AW ban) is no longer around. Hence today - legally - hi cap magazines are not defined by the federal government (in statute) as unsporting. BUT BUT BUT... the ATF has not changed their definition. I hope they do, but doubt they will.

What does this mean for us? Basically we are still subject to the same 922r requirements that existed during the AWB. But today, we can put all the features on semiautomatic firearms if we remove enough foreign parts to reclassify the firearm as a US firearm. Legally, firearms with enough US parts are not 922r compliant, they are 922r exempt because they are considered US firearms - not imports.

SO in closing, - if you are going to modify a 'imported/foreign' firearm that is subject to 922r (e.g. not enough US parts to reclassify it as a US firearm), you cannot configure it in a way that it cannot be imported.

So on a Saiga 12 - no pistol grips, no folding stocks, no use of 8-round magazines.
On a Saiga Rifle - no pistol grips, no folding stocks, no bayo lugs, no flash suppressors, no use of any magazines that exceed 10 rounds. The reason I say this is now the receivers (even though the configuration differs from a standard AK) do have the ABILITY to accept a hi capacity magazine.

Here's the weird part of post-AWB, technically ALL detatachable magazine firearms have the ABILITY to accept magazines with capacities greater than 10 rounds. So my expectation is that we're going to see some chages by the ATF regarding imports (eventually) because single stack AKs or any other variant have the ABILITY to accept 'unsporting' hi cap mags. Based on their interpretation in 1999, the ABILITY to accept a hi capacity magazine makes a semiautomatic firearm unsporting. MY GUESS - Either they will go back to pre-99 interpretations or disallow all semiautomatics with detachable magazines.

Whew :cryss: ... that one took a long time to explain.

Edited by RDSWriter, 27 February 2005 - 11:43 AM.


#26 stokstad

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:21 PM

I woud recomend the Ace Stokcks they are great quality and look good too.
Here is a link to information installing the ACE without the conversion.

http://forum.saiga-1...?showtopic=1688

It shows a side folder on it but you dont need to get that adapter. If you decide to go this route good luck its a pain in the ass getting the parst count. I tried and finally just gave in and converted. Which is very easy nd opens up a large amount of modifying options.

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Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)

#27 agent_242

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:26 PM

The message below is from the new post that I posted:
-----------------------------------------

Sadly, I have decided to sell my Saiga. I found a WASR Romanian AK for a good deal ($250, new). As you guys know, this rifle is made in the US, so it can accept almost any add-on without illegal issues. Since I am in college, I don’t have enough money to invest on Saiga modifications...nor the time =(. So I am going to sell my Saiga online.

What I am asking for:

New Saiga 7.62X39mm, 20 inch Barrel: $285 + Shipping (I need to find this out)
-This Saiga as never been fired. The only thing I have done to it is simply oiled it.
-Original box, the EEA manual, and certificate included.
-10 Round Magazine and Pin included
-Synthetic Stock (not wood)

Now since I have never sold a rifle online, I have a question. Do I need to give my rifle to a FFL dealer in my area so that he can send it to another FFL dealer?


**I'll add pictures soon.

Thanks for your time guys.

#28 stokstad

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:48 PM

The message below is from the new post that I posted:
-----------------------------------------

Sadly, I have decided to sell my Saiga. I found a WASR Romanian AK for a good deal ($250, new). As you guys know, this rifle is made in the US, so it can accept almost any add-on without illegal issues. Since I am in college, I don’t have enough money to invest on Saiga modifications...nor the time =(. So I am going to sell my Saiga online.

What I am asking for:

New Saiga 7.62X39mm, 20 inch Barrel: $285 + Shipping (I need to find this out)
-This Saiga as never been fired. The only thing I have done to it is simply oiled it.
-Original box, the EEA manual, and certificate included.
-10 Round Magazine and Pin included
-Synthetic Stock (not wood)

Now since I have never sold a rifle online, I have a question. Do I need to give my rifle to a FFL dealer in my area so that he can send it to another FFL dealer?


**I'll add pictures soon.

Thanks for your time guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Sorry to hear tht since the Saigas are so much better quality. If I were you I would try and deal with how it is for now and buy parts when you can. But thats just my opinion.

Edited by stokstad, 27 February 2005 - 12:49 PM.

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)

#29 saan2112

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 02:17 PM

A while back a memeber by the name F4D said that he was trying to put his pistol grip and thumbhole stock into production and have them for sell in mid december of 04'. Does anyone know how that coming along? Here are some pics to refresh some minds..........

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#30 saan2112

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 02:18 PM

another...

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