I think I got a vodka special, need advice

[johnstein11 1]

Si I finally take my saiga 12 to the range yesterday, but it doesn't want to feed. It shot winchester 00 buck okay, but would not feed 8 shot. should

[johnstein11 1]

Si I finally take my saiga 12 to the range yesterday, but it doesn't want to feed. It shot winchester 00 buck okay, but would not feed 8 shot. should

should I try changing out the recoil spring or just keep shooting until it breaks in. sorry my computer settings are off and I can't see what i am typing.

[Razorback 72]

After unloading and checking that you unloaded the shotgun. Remove the gas adjuster and puck from the gas tube. Look inside the gas tube and probe with a paper clip or pin the gas port area, ( a round cutout in the front of the gas block on the bottom)to see how many ports you have. It should have from the factory 3 or 4 gas ports. If it is a 2 port gun, it is a vodka special like mine. Check out the lot number from the box it came in and see what lot number you have.

 

Here is some info from CGW. Update on the 2 port problem. Most of the guns have shown up in one of two lot numbers. When requesting warranty service please try to include the lot number off of the end of the original box. For example 114/444. The two problem lots have been 329 and 500 with the 12 ga guns..............by no means is this exclusive, just the majority of the guns have been in these lots to date............VK

 

And here is a link to their forum and info on returns.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=34883. Good luck, most of these guns just need lots of ammo shot thru them to start working smoothly, about 200 to 300 rounds, most recommend high brass loads, buckshot or slugs.

[Bvamp 604]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

try running some 1 1/8oz trap loads down the gun on gas setting "2", and see if it will run those. Tom warranties the guns to 1 1/8oz loads, and suggests using some heavy loads on gas setting one at first to get the parts moving around a bit (which you have already done), and then run 1 1/8oz loads or good quality shotshells thereafter to reliably cycle the gun.

 

if you still have problems, or have a 2 port, or partially obstructed 3 port gun, your gun will be warrantied free of charge to you. turnaround is roughly 3 weeks, unless you want additional customization and such done to the gun while its in the shop.

[corbin 621]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

 

I didn't realize that. Mine is a 4 port gun. Are 4 holers an American thing?

 

 

 

Corbin

[kresk 10,063]

It's probably a little premature to call vodka special unless you've run a couple hundred rounds through it and still experience problems.

[3ac6ucb 24]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

That's not true. EAA and RAA have imported plenty of 4 port Saiga-12's. Only the latest models are 3 porters.

[Bvamp 604]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

 

I didn't realize that. Mine is a 4 port gun. Are 4 holers an American thing?

 

 

 

Corbin

 

your gun refused to cycle during test firing, and the 4th hole was added by Tom after exhausting all other options....works good now, dont it?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

 

I didn't realize that. Mine is a 4 port gun. Are 4 holers an American thing?

 

 

 

Corbin

 

They're an "American" thing in my workshop! Lol... at "Works good now, don't it?". You got that right BVAMP

 

WS

[VanKiller 322]

Early 12 ga guns had three ports.

Then they went to 4 smaller ports.

Then they dumped a bunch of 2 port guns on the US market.

Now the factory is back to the 3 larger ports.

 

It seems like all the two port models have just about run out (FINALLY)

 

It's really the volume of gas thru the ports that counts.....not weather it's 3 or 4 ports.

 

On setting 2 the gun should cycle 1 1/4 hunting loads right out of the box.

After some break-in, they should run the 1 1/8 Fed value pack load.

These guns seldom like the Win Universal loads.

 

Check over your gun, check the ports, try firing the 1 1/4 loads, if it will not cycle then call for warranty.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

[Nailbomb 10,221]

tom, thank you for the clarification. I have both a 3 and 4 port gun, and I definitly noticed a size difference between the 4 and 3 port guns. volume of gas is a logical reason for the change.

 

my question is as follows...

 

what is the difference in the volume of gas between the 3 and 4 port models? does the 3 port allow more gas or the 4 port? does the size change change gun fouling characteristics? can i expect my 3 port to carbon up faster than my 4 port?

 

I understand the issue isn't tied back to you, but i have 2 stock gas pistons 1 chaos gas piston, and a Gogun magnum twister puck. I understand that the magnum puck would work better in a S-12 with more gas, and want to take that into consideration when choosing the S-12 for it to live in.

[Gibbles 23]

Try turning the gas plug out one full turn.

 

if not try a gunfixer gas plug for the + settings.

[3ac6ucb 24]

tom, thank you for the clarification. I have both a 3 and 4 port gun, and I definitly noticed a size difference between the 4 and 3 port guns. volume of gas is a logical reason for the change.

 

my question is as follows...

 

what is the difference in the volume of gas between the 3 and 4 port models? does the 3 port allow more gas or the 4 port? does the size change change gun fouling characteristics? can i expect my 3 port to carbon up faster than my 4 port?

 

The spacing of the holes on the 4 port guns was such that it was easier to misalign the gas block and obstruct one or more of the ports.

 

Of the newer 3 port guns I've seen, their holes are both larger and closer together. There is more tolerance for positioning the gas block without covering up holes.

 

As long as the volume of gas is the same, the number of holes won't affect how the gun cycles. Fewer large holes *might* let more fouling through vs. a greater number of smaller holes, but the difference probably is not great.

[Razorback 72]

I finally got a picture of the gas ports in my S-12. 2 Ports. I was pretty sure it had only two, but now it's time to pick a new finish and get CGW to fix er up!

[skiboatsp 111]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

try running some 1 1/8oz trap loads down the gun on gas setting "2", and see if it will run those. Tom warranties the guns to 1 1/8oz loads, and suggests using some heavy loads on gas setting one at first to get the parts moving around a bit (which you have already done), and then run 1 1/8oz loads or good quality shotshells thereafter to reliably cycle the gun.

 

if you still have problems, or have a 2 port, or partially obstructed 3 port gun, your gun will be warrantied free of charge to you. turnaround is roughly 3 weeks, unless you want additional customization and such done to the gun while its in the shop.

all 19 of mine have 3 ports + 1

[Crusader 64]

I think Tony coined the term "Vodka Special."

[skiboatsp 111]

there is no such thing as factory 4 port guns. factory ports are 2 (military contract barrels) or 3.

 

try running some 1 1/8oz trap loads down the gun on gas setting "2", and see if it will run those. Tom warranties the guns to 1 1/8oz loads, and suggests using some heavy loads on gas setting one at first to get the parts moving around a bit (which you have already done), and then run 1 1/8oz loads or good quality shotshells thereafter to reliably cycle the gun.

 

if you still have problems, or have a 2 port, or partially obstructed 3 port gun, your gun will be warrantied free of charge to you. turnaround is roughly 3 weeks, unless you want additional customization and such done to the gun while its in the shop.

all 19 of mine have 3 ports + 1

 

I still didn't understand

 

All of my origanal saiga 12's have 4 ports

 

Am I missing somthing????

Edited January 10, 2010 by saigatechusa

[Bvamp 604]

there was a very VERY short run of 4 port guns right after the two porters hit the shores. I mean, VERY few.

 

 

yeh if you have two ports, give the office a call, we will warranty the gun for you free of charge 740 942 3175

[skiboatsp 111]

there was a very VERY short run of 4 port guns right after the two porters hit the shores. I mean, VERY few.

 

 

yeh if you have two ports, give the office a call, we will warranty the gun for you free of charge 740 942 3175

 

 

I bought my first in 2007.....my last in late 2009 could I have been so lucky to have 19 4 port guns?

 

Thanks for the offer but I believe I can build my own.

[Bvamp 604]

and what makes you think they are factory 4 port guns?

 

 

my company only holds the sole warranty contract for these in the US, what would I know, right?

[3ac6ucb 24]

and what makes you think they are factory 4 port guns?

 

 

my company only holds the sole warranty contract for these in the US, what would I know, right?

 

Have you reworked batches of Saiga-12's straight from RAA, before they were shipped to dealers? I've seen guns come right out of the box with 4 ports and no receipt or paperwork to suggest they had been sent up to Cadiz.

 

There are several possibilities:

1- Some unscrupulous FFL's have been selling refurbed guns as new from the factory.

2- The distributor (RAA, perhaps some other party) has been covering up the fact that 4 port guns are refurbs.

3- There really is such a thing as a 4 port factory gun.

 

So BVamp, what _do_ you know?

[Raoul_Duke 113]

there was a very VERY short run of 4 port guns right after the two porters hit the shores. I mean, VERY few.

 

 

yeh if you have two ports, give the office a call, we will warranty the gun for you free of charge 740 942 3175

 

 

I bought my first in 2007.....my last in late 2009 could I have been so lucky to have 19 4 port guns?

 

Thanks for the offer but I believe I can build my own.

Well, you're lucky enough to have 19 of them, so . . .

[3ac6ucb 24]

there was a very VERY short run of 4 port guns right after the two porters hit the shores. I mean, VERY few.

 

 

yeh if you have two ports, give the office a call, we will warranty the gun for you free of charge 740 942 3175

 

 

I bought my first in 2007.....my last in late 2009 could I have been so lucky to have 19 4 port guns?

 

Thanks for the offer but I believe I can build my own.

Well, you're lucky enough to have 19 of them, so . . .

 

19 is a larger sample than what I've got for sure, but I can tell you my 2007 gun came out of the box with 4 ports and no receipt for refurb/warranty work at Cadiz. I was at my FFL's when the box arrived and personally unboxed it, so I can tell you that _my_ FFL wasn't the one who hid the paperwork. Could it have been the FFL who shipped it to me? Possibly.

 

Or maybe there really is such a thing as a factory 4 port gun.

[Raoul_Duke 113]

there was a very VERY short run of 4 port guns right after the two porters hit the shores. I mean, VERY few.

 

 

yeh if you have two ports, give the office a call, we will warranty the gun for you free of charge 740 942 3175

 

 

I bought my first in 2007.....my last in late 2009 could I have been so lucky to have 19 4 port guns?

 

Thanks for the offer but I believe I can build my own.

Well, you're lucky enough to have 19 of them, so . . .

 

19 is a larger sample than what I've got for sure,

No shit, I feel lucky enough to have 4.

[Razorback 72]

It looks like Tom sums it up below. I really wonder which configuration (3 ports VS 4 ports) works the best in cycling as opposed to fouling.

 

Early 12 ga guns had three ports.

Then they went to 4 smaller ports.

Then they dumped a bunch of 2 port guns on the US market.

Now the factory is back to the 3 larger ports.

 

It seems like all the two port models have just about run out (FINALLY)

 

It's really the volume of gas thru the ports that counts.....not weather it's 3 or 4 ports.

 

On setting 2 the gun should cycle 1 1/4 hunting loads right out of the box.

After some break-in, they should run the 1 1/8 Fed value pack load.

These guns seldom like the Win Universal loads.

 

Check over your gun, check the ports, try firing the 1 1/4 loads, if it will not cycle then call for warranty.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

3 or 4 ports will work without significant fouling to the gun. Those holes have to get pretty large in order to actually foul the gas system to the point that efficiency is lost. I personally prefer at least four ports for the guns I build, but as I stated, that is a matter of preference.

 

One thing that seems to be fairly common with off the shelf Saigas is that they appear to me to be made to shoot hotter loads, and are often under gassed for the cheap wally world stuff many of us here in the USA like to shoot.

 

As has been stated previously in this thread and many others, it is not the number of holes that is most important, but that the porting allows sufficient gas volume to drive the piston and bolt assembly for efficient ejection.

 

There are a few folks on the forum who are really worth listening to when they discuss gas system problems and remedies -- and three in particular with whom I personally agree 99.9% of the time. These are Tom at Cadiz, Tony R. (Tromix), and Shannon (Cobra's).

 

On the other side of the coin, I see a great deal of misunderstanding with regard to what DOES allow the S12 to cycle efficiently.

 

At the end of the day, there are no magic bullets, or magic after market fixes. It comes down to physics. There are three things that need to be working together to get one of these guns to cycle at maximum efficiency.

 

The first is a load that provides enough energy in the form of recoil and gas pressure to operate effectively with the rest of the system. The second is a gas system which is capable of directing energy to drive the piston back with enough force to move the bolt carrier back, rotating the bolt, and ejecting the shell with sufficient force to throw it free of the reciever. Third is reducing and balancing resistance on the receiver side to allow all of this to happen with maximum efficiency.

 

Long story short, many (not all) IZ-109's in factory trim won't have problems ejecting Wally World Federal bulk pack, after a break in period (the number of necessary rounds can vary greatly from gun to gun). HOWEVER, when the trigger group is moved forward, and a new fire control group is installed -- the operational physics of the gun will change.

 

This is (among other things) because the generic G2 AK hammer is positioned, angled, and shaped differently than with the factory setup, and also due to the fact that the hammer is sitting higher in the receiver creating more resistance to the bolt carrier than is needed to get the job done.

 

If the physics are truly out of balance, no amount of break in, high brass, gas plugs, tappets, or voodoo bling will fix the problem. Some of these -- gas plugs, esp.) -- can help help get the physics back in balance, but ONLY if there is sufficient gas to begin with to overcome the additional resistance created by the installation of after market parts. In my experience the after market tappets are great as 922® parts, but don't contribute (or detract) much in terms of performance.

 

The upshot here is that the S12 is an extremely important tool. Possibly the most important tool you may ever own under certain circumstances. If you have tried fixer plugs, and tappets,have taken a dremel to something, or added ports, and find your converted gun is still not cycling reliably, you have a problem which can most likely can be fixed, but will be best addressed by an S12 gunsmith who will get your gun working to its full potential, and guarantee the work.

 

There are a number of business members on the forum who specialize in this type of work, and if you are out there suffering in silence, dealing with a gun that is not all you had hoped it would be, you are far from alone. This forum has thousands of posts from individuals who are in exactly the same position. Just search FTC, FTE....

 

By all means, do all that you can do yourself, but IF that isn't working... get expert assistance to allow you finish what you started.

 

WS

Edited January 10, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[Razorback 72]

+1 WS Well put. I'm calling Vickie on Monday morning to get mine scheduled for repair. Then it will be bliss again when I get it back and shoot up about 3 cases of wally cheap ammo thru it.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Si I finally take my saiga 12 to the range yesterday, but it doesn't want to feed. It shot winchester 00 buck okay, but would not feed 8 shot. should

should I try changing out the recoil spring or just keep shooting until it breaks in. sorry my computer settings are off and I can't see what i am typing.

 

This is a good question. I saw that someone had given you a minus point for this question. I corrected that with a plus point to bring your brownie points back to null.

 

This is a GOOD question, and an important one -- and whoever gave you a -1 for asking it needs to be flogged.

 

The answer is that you should not need to change the recoil spring for your S12 to function properly. Ben, Tom and others have covered the rest of your question extensively.

 

There are no bad questions on this forum -- but the quality and accuracy of the answers can vary greatly. You have gotten some great feedback on this thread. Thanks for starting it. +1.

 

WS

[Raoul_Duke 113]

Si I finally take my saiga 12 to the range yesterday, but it doesn't want to feed. It shot winchester 00 buck okay, but would not feed 8 shot. should

should I try changing out the recoil spring or just keep shooting until it breaks in. sorry my computer settings are off and I can't see what i am typing.

 

This is a good question. I saw that someone had given you a minus point for this question. I corrected that with a plus point to bring your brownie points back to null.

 

This is a GOOD question, and an important one -- and whoever gave you a -1 for asking it needs to be flogged.

 

The answer is that you should not need to change the recoil spring for your S12 to function properly. Ben, Tom and others have covered the rest of your question extensively.

 

There are no bad questions on this forum -- but the quality and accuracy of the answers can vary greatly. You have gotten some great feedback on this thread. Thanks for starting it. +1.

 

WS

 

+1 Well said WS.

[tretpflyr 2]

Si I finally take my saiga 12 to the range yesterday, but it doesn't want to feed. It shot winchester 00 buck okay, but would not feed 8 shot. should

mine ran rough for the first few hundred rounds but I was using birdshot on the lowest setting. Sometimes a FTE and others a FTF. I was a little disapointed but an old smith told me a trick to try ... get a Q-tip and smear some engine valve lapping compound on the offending parts of the slide and surfaces it contacts. Work that slide at least two hundred times trying to get it to smooth out. I found that the largest drag component on the bolt is the hammer so I put some on that too. I cleaned it all up and it indeed was smoother. Runs like a timex watch now. Bolt and reciever contact points are smooth as a baby's butt now (less drag) do it naturally runs better.

 

Don't give up, keep working on it and learning.