Saiga 12 Cylcing

[LAK Supply 0]

Does anybody know what I can do to my Saiga to ensure it runs any off the shelf 12ga load out there? This thing has an issue with low base/low recoil loads and I would like to fix that. What do I do?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Does anybody know what I can do to my Saiga to ensure it runs any off the shelf 12ga load out there? This thing has an issue with low base/low recoil loads and I would like to fix that. What do I do?

 

Well... you can send it to Lone Star Arms for a complete performance overhaul

[LAK Supply 0]

Hehe... ok, so how about for somebody who is competent enough to work on AR's on up to mild machining mods on FA shorty rigs and doesn't want to pay your fine establishment to do what they can do themselves?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Does anybody know what I can do to my Saiga to ensure it runs any off the shelf 12ga load out there? This thing has an issue with low base/low recoil loads and I would like to fix that. What do I do?

If it isn't restored or modified yet, contact Cadiz Gun Works (a/the RRA warranty service center?). I'm not sure how long it will take or if the shipping is free. Maybe not long and maybe free. Never hurts to ask.

 

If it has been modified....

Send it to one of the builders here (do your homework) or read the 'stickys' and get to work. Gas issues and drag issues seem to be the main culprits.... other than shit ammo, which is my favorite I'm all about the challenge....

 

Well.... a few questions:

 

1- How long would you wait for perfection?

 

2- How much would you pay for it?

 

3- Are you good with your hands?

 

4- Do you have basic tools or access to them?

 

 

....and a few more:

 

1- Is it failing to eject?

 

2- Is it failing to feed?

 

3- How long is the failing ammo loaded in the mag before you fire the weapon? (days, load at the range, months, what?)

 

4- What ammo is it? Winchester Universal , Federal bulk, etc....

 

ETA: just read your second post on the matter. Start reading....

Edited June 23, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Hehe... ok, so how about for somebody who is competent enough to work on AR's on up to mild machining mods on FA shorty rigs and doesn't want to pay your fine establishment to do what they can do themselves?

 

Many years ago, a guy came into a martial arts studio... He cheerfully stated his accomplishments... He was an accomplished pilot with X hours of training and flight experience... He had a black belt in so on, and so forth....

 

Now he wanted a black belt in the discipline associated with the school he had approached...

 

We spent a number of hours talking with him.

 

At the end of the day it was clear that there was nothing he did not already know, or could not accomplish through osmosis.

[ErikTaylor 41]

There's plenty of info on this site to help guide you. Lone Star is very knowledgable and I'm sure he'll set your gun right!

 

What Evl said. The more we know about your gun the more we'd be able to help.

 

Good luck!

[Paulyski 2,227]

Does anybody know what I can do to my Saiga to ensure it runs any off the shelf 12ga load out there? This thing has an issue with low base/low recoil loads and I would like to fix that. What do I do?

We need to know what ammo your having issues with. Is it just Winchester low? If so, try federal.

 

If you're unconverted & having these issues & you've already fired a bunch of high brass to break it in, & YOU'RE USING THE FACTORY 5 ROUND MAG FOR BASELINE TESTING, I would suspect the ports. There were a bunch of 3 port guns imported that had the ports drilled to the smaller 4 port size.

 

If you're converted, it gets trickier.

If you would rather DIY, post as many of the specifics as you can. Ammo, Gas settings, Mods, Rail systems, replacement springs, any part you've swapped, ect...

 

Also FTE? FTF? which or both?

Edited June 23, 2010 by Paulyski

[SaigaNoobie 66]

If it's failing to EXTRACT (Not failing to feed) then there are things you can do to help.

 

Remember, when you shoot, you're using X amount of energy in the form of gas to move the Bolt Carrier etc. If the friction, spring tension, weight, etc, for the rearward cycling action is Y, and the Energy imparted by X is less than the energy required by Y, you're going to have failures to extract.

 

Two ways to change this, increase X or decrease Y.

 

Increase X by making the ports bigger. This involves taking gas blocks off, drilling holes etc.

 

Decrease Y by reducing friction, reducing the spring tensions on the Hammer Mainspring and the Bolt Carrier Spring.

 

Carolina Shooter's Supply sells these items:

 

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-204/saiga-reduced-power-recoil/Detail

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-205/%232-Competition-Reduced-Power/Detail

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-328/AK47-Saiga-JT-Engineering/Detail

 

I'd recommend them. When your bolt moves to the rear, it uses its energy imparted by the gas, to Push the hammer down against the hammer spring (lighter spring = less energy to do this), and push the bolt carrier to the rear of the receiver against the energy of the springs (The two lighter springs will give you two options to test. If it runs perfectly on the #1, then just save the #2.)

 

Also, remember, the hammer only needs to move far enough down into the receiver to catch the disconnector while the trigger is in the "pulled" position. Any movement beyond the disconnector is wasted energy. Now I give my hammer 1-2mm of extra movement to ensure they catch the disconnector, but some hammers (Tapco G2) are so tall that they literally move 1+cm beyond the disconnector. That's wasted energy in both the extraction and feed directions when the carrier crosses over it.

 

Clear gun. Strip it (leave the bolt carrier in the closed position). Pull trigger and hold. Push the hammer back down into the disconnector while HOLDING the trigger in the fired position. Move the bolt carrier accross the hammer, watch the hammer and feel it. if you can see your hammer move ALOT and if you feel the hammer dragging on your carrier, then the hammer is sapping more energy from the system than it needs.

 

I sometimes get frustrated when talking to people about this. It seems so obvious to me.

[Bvamp 604]

Does anybody know what I can do to my Saiga to ensure it runs any off the shelf 12ga load out there? This thing has an issue with low base/low recoil loads and I would like to fix that. What do I do?

 

The lightest loads, and low recoil loads were never meant for the gun. You will have to overgas it.

 

 

Hehe... ok, so how about for somebody who is competent enough to work on AR's on up to mild machining mods on FA shorty rigs and doesn't want to pay your fine establishment to do what they can do themselves?

 

If you do open up ports or add a fourth port, (or touch the gas system yourself) you will void the warranty (it doesnt seem like you in particular would want to worry about it), HOWEVER, I would use caution with 3" shells or other heavy loads from there out...it will eventually damage the gun when you overgas it. The bolt should not contact the rear trunion, is the rule of thumb. Kissing it really shouldnt happen, but smacking it SURE shouldnt happen.

 

 

If it isn't restored or modified yet, contact Cadiz Gun Works (a/the RRA warranty service center?). I'm not sure how long it will take or if the shipping is free. Maybe not long and maybe free. Never hurts to ask.

 

Our warranty repair turn-around right now is about 30 days or so, and if it is a warranty issue (running extra light or low recoil loads is not in the specifications to this combat shotgun), it is completely free of charge to the customer.

[LAK Supply 0]

Thanks for the input guys. I've had issues with everything from Federal #4 to Winchester #8. Although I don't plan on using light loads in this I want to be able to if necessary. It's not converted yet, but it will be shortly. Other than that it's currently set up with a Chaos rail, MD and Surefire, ACE, Aimpoint Micro, etc. I do have the plug and puck inbound and I've been checking out the polishing PDF that's floating around on the site. I'm not really worried about warranty... just want to make it run. I'm good with my hands, have plenty of smithing tools, and I don't know everything there is to know about everything. If that was the case I wouldn't be asking... just don't want to pay somebody else for what I'm capable of doing with the correct information. Oh... and I'm not a black belt or a pilot.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Thanks for the input guys. I've had issues with everything from Federal #4 to Winchester #8. Although I don't plan on using light loads in this I want to be able to if necessary. It's not converted yet, but it will be shortly. Other than that it's currently set up with a Chaos rail, MD and Surefire, ACE, Aimpoint Micro, etc. I do have the plug and puck inbound and I've been checking out the polishing PDF that's floating around on the site. I'm not really worried about warranty... just want to make it run. I'm good with my hands, have plenty of smithing tools, and I don't know everything there is to know about everything. If that was the case I wouldn't be asking... just don't want to pay somebody else for what I'm capable of doing with the correct information. Oh... and I'm not a black belt or a pilot.

 

LOL!!! Point taken.

 

Let me know if I can help.

 

Mike

[Paulyski 2,227]

Okay, you're on the right track then.

First you reduce friction. You'd really want to do that one way or another.

 

If you keep having issues, check this out. It's a good procedure.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51183

[stix213 3]

I think a good first step if you are having cycling issues is to figure out how many gas port holes you have. For example, I just got my Saiga 12 a few weeks back and tested it last week. On setting 1 shooting 00 buck I was getting a FTE every 4th round and the ones that would cycle only flew about a foot or two out, and Fed value pack bird shot on setting 2 was FTE almost every trigger pull. I took a look at the gas ports and they weren't even close to center, only two were barely visible and were right at the edge of the gas block hole.

 

I assumed I had additional gas ports covered under the gas block, so I just took the gas block off an hour ago to check it out. Unfortunately it turns out I have one of those annoying 2 port barrels that are notorious for cycling problems. Gun was already pre-converted here in Cali before I purchased it, so warranty is probably not an option from Cadiz (damn I knew I should have waited for a sporter version, I had so much fun converting my 7.62x39 but this was their last S12 in stock!)

 

The silver lining is I always wanted an excuse to buy a drill press

Edited June 26, 2010 by stix213

[Paulyski 2,227]

stix213;

 

If you need to add a port, you may want to consider using a 3/32 mill bit in your drill press instead of a drill bit. It'll start easier & come out cleaner on the other side than it would with a regular drill bit.

[re-model 11]

almost every post on the port size tends to be 3/32...when I removed my GB my three holes were a hair over 1/16 but not quite 5/64. I rand the 5/64 bit through the three holes and called it a day.

should I have incresed the size on a three port to 3/32????

I had only 5 FTE out of 100 using low brass remington 2-3/4target loads on the #2 setting, it won't cycle at all on #1

I also tried winchester 2-3/4 target loads on #2 and none of them would even cycle.

 

I have polished the carrier and hammer, the action is incredibly smooth compared to when it was stock factory.

 

should I take the GB back off and open the three holes to 3/32????

[ErikTaylor 41]

Yes you should. On a 3 port gun 3/32 is the right size. On a 4 port gun 5/64 is correct. If you enlarge it to 3/32 you should be GTG.

[re-model 11]

thanks i will try that!

[ErikTaylor 41]

Sorry the answer is short. I'm on the road from my phone. In theory both of those combinations allow nearly the same (correct amount) of gas in to alleviate undergassed guns. Please report after and let us know how it did. Take care and good luck.

[Bman 1]

I dropped mine off at Cadiz Gun Works ports were obstructed and the site was canted which was covered by warranty I also had them polish the bolt, put on a truglow sight and thread my barrel for Rem chokes. They are very nice people they took the time to sit down and talk to me and show me some different things about the Saiga 12. I was very impressed the time they spent with me, in this day and age alot of business owners care about one thing the almighty dollar they are a CLASS act. I have no affiliation with them other than dropping my gun off.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Bman1187

[re-model 11]

all done...opened the three ports to 3/32 and had to enlarge the hole in the GB just enough to allow unobstructed gas flow. put her back together and will test drive tomorrow...I shot over 100 rounds today and my shoulder is killing me!

[LAK Supply 0]

Thanks for all the info guys... I just received the puck and plug, and when the conversion kit arrives I'll be tearing her down and looking for everything that's been mentioned here.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

all done...opened the three ports to 3/32 and had to enlarge the hole in the GB just enough to allow unobstructed gas flow. put her back together and will test drive tomorrow...I shot over 100 rounds today and my shoulder is killing me!

 

Change your stance, shoulder the weapon a bit higher on your shoulder and hold it tight. You want to lean a little forward from the waist up, I like to stand with my left foot out in front of my torso and my right foot slightly behind me (basically a modified front-stance). I normally don't have a problem with my shoulder nor are there any marks on it even after 100 rounds...

 

I know that it sounds weird to shoulder the weapon higher but it works for me...