Red Dot Sight on S-12

[badgerw 0]

I put an 8moa Trijicon RMR on my Glock 26 (thanks, OST Tech Services!) earlier this year. Love it!

 

I got a great deal on another RM02 (8moa LED) and an RM03 (13moa dual-illumination). My plan was to put the RM02 on my Glock 19 and the RM03 on my Saiga 12.

 

After Tony Rumore finished my S-12, he recommended a Saiga mount from AMS Machine. It fits nicely in the original rear sight dovetail. And I like the fact that it has ears on either side to protect the sight. The mount cost $89.

 

One problem: it was designed for the Docter RDS. It needs an adapter plate. So I got a Trijicon RM37 plate that adapts an RMR screw set to a Docter mount. The adapter cost another $53.

 

So now I'm $142 into getting the RDS on the Saiga. And I have another problem.

 

The mount is is designed for a Docter. The RM03 is too wide to fit between the protective ears. The RM02 is 0.1 inches narrower and fits nicely.

 

So, do I:

 

* Put the LED sight on my shotgun and put the dual-illumination sight on my G19, or

 

* Find a different mount for the shotgun, put the dual-illumination sight on as planned, and put the LED sight on my G19, or

 

* Return the RM37 adapter plate for a refund, sell the dual-illumination sight, and get a Docter 7moa LED sight for the shotgun. And put the RMR LED sight on my G19.

 

The first option already cost me $142.

 

I could probably get that amount back on the mount and adapter plate and use it to buy an Ultimak Picatinney rail and an RMR base to fit.

 

Or I can return the adapter for a refund, sell the RM03 for $350 (what I paid for it), and buy a Docter for $300 on eBay. This puts about $100 back in my pocket.

 

What do y'all think?

 

Bill

[vitamink 90]

Agreed.

[PYRO 44]

I used the R&R Target's mount and made it work for my C-More sight, not sure if it will work for your setup, but here's the thread about it:

 

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58167

[badgerw 0]

Burris Fast Fire.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't see how this helps my situation.

 

I can buy a FastFire ($200) and skip using the RM37 adapter plate (return for $53 refund). That's still more money out of my pocket.

 

What I don't care for in the FastFire is:

 

• The dot is small (4moa).
   
  
• The dot isn't nearly as bright as those on the Trijicon sights.
   
  
• The FF has an ON/OFF switch.
   
  
• The FF is fairly fragile (don't ask me how I know this).
  

 

Bill

[towerofpower93 22]

I have to second what pyro said. I liked the look of the R and R Racing dovetail mount for a FF2 so I set it up and ran it yesterday in a 3 gun match yesterday. Loved it. The dot was a nice size for hitting distant (30-40yds) clays set on stands while on the move and didn't block out the 6" steel plates on the close range (6-10yds) stages. I say sell what you have and get the FF2 and R and R mount from Brownells, as described in Pyros thread, and be done with it.

 

My .02

 

Eric

[ufo 20]

Buy Docter or C-more STS.

[Zambidis 90]

I could probably get that amount back on the mount and adapter plate and use it to buy an Ultimak Picatinney rail and an RMR base to fit.

 

This looked like the set up Travis Haley had on his S12 in the trailer for the new magpul dynamics DVD.

 

I wouldn't trade an RMR for a fast fire. Not a dig at the fast fire; I actually have a fast fire I just think the RMR is a better sight. I don't know enough about the docter sight to give meaningful comparison.

 

* Put the LED sight on my shotgun and put the dual-illumination sight on my G19, or

 

I might try that first since you already have all the stuff to do it. If you don't like it either on the G19 end or the S12 end you can still do something else. Of course if you take it out and use it like that then you will most likely be precluding the ability to return items in order to go a different route.

[The Commodore 0]

What does it look like on the G26? I have a G27 and I am curious.

[frick 3]

Kobra, just like the Commies intended.

 

They have gotten pricey, but, I love the ones I have, and you can use them on any weapon that uses the standard military side mount as on the Saiga.

[badgerw 0]

My thanks to everyone for their input.

 

Here's what I decided:

 

* Install the AMS Machine mount on my S-12 and use the RM02 (8moa LED) sight.

 

* Put the RM03 (13moa dual illumination) sight on my Glock 19, after I get OST to mill the slide.

 

* Save my milk money to buy another RM02 for the Glock 19.

 

* When I replace the sight on the Glock 19, I will move the RM03 to be an auxiliary / CQB sight for my Kalashni-Scout.

 

As for the G26 with RDS, here it is:

 

 

Bill

[Zambidis 90]

Red dots are quickly growing in popularity on carry guns. The sight really doesn't interfere much with concealing the weapon. Suarez has some articles on the theory behind a red dot on a defensive pistol if you care to read more.

[badgerw 0]

I hope you like what you have but I really have to ask what the purpose is of a dot on a smallish frame handgun like that. The Dot makes it more difficult to conceal if thats the goal. It is on moving slide which is a deterent to second shot followup. The gun is to short to really use for any kind of competition and only legal for the open class full of frame mount fullsize 2011 types.

Pardon my ignorance but most small dots of any kind dont live a real long time in a slide mount config. The JP and Doctor are the most rugged from the what I know of talking to the open class guys in USPSA. Plus with a short barrel pistol like that the need for a dot for acuracy is kind of a head scratcher.

 

Let me address your points one at a time:

 

1. More difficult to conceal? No. what is usually hard to conceal is the butt of the gun, since it sticks away from the body. The RDS is on top of the slide and against my body.

 

2. Second shot follow-up? I do not have the neuro-motor skills to track my front sight thru slide recoil, as the top-ranked competitive shooters do. My eyes stay focused on the target from shot to shot. Muscle memory puts the gun back on target. The dot verifies point of aim.

 

3. Competition? IDPA will probably have issues with the gun. IPSC, I don't think so. Either way, I don't really care. This is my carry gun, not a race gun.

 

4. Durability? Trijicon is pretty confident in the sight, so I'm trying it out. It is much more rugged than the Docter or J-Point. I'm about 1500 rounds into this sight with no issues. I've dropped it on the ground repeatedly. No problem. Like anything man-made, it can break. I still have iron sights as a back-up.

 

5. Accuracy? People think of short-barrel guns as inaccurate because of a short sight radius, not because of the intrinsic accuracy of the gun. The RDS removes the sight radius issue. Now the only thing that matters is my ability to control the trigger.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Bill

[zenman223 460]

i am glad tnek asked b/c i really thought the exact same thing just didn't care enough to ask but since it was brought up i have another question about that setup. how is the sight activated? i mean you have to flip a switch to turn it on or you just leave it on when you carry it or what? i would certainly not want to have to turn it on in a defensive situation. that was my main concern about having a sight like that on a carry gun other than that i think its an intriguing idea, Ive thought about putting one on my XDM.

[Shadoh 16]

Thats the only thing that would bother me on a SD handgun with a sight like this. You either have to flip the switch or remove the cover to activate it. If you remove the cover to activate it how much light does it need to see on the photocell to activate? If you remove it at night in a dark room will it turn on or will you have to then toggle the power switch as well? It wouldnt be bad if they would work with a pressure switch but Ive yet to see one that has that option. I could go in and rewire one to work that way but I think I will just stick with my TruGlo sights, always on and ready to go.

 

Edit: Oh, as far as concealed carry how are you carrying it? If I tried to stick my XD in my inside the waistband holster that sight would dig into my side hard. Maybe an under arm or under a big sweater or jacket but that doesnt work well in hot climates.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Shadoh

[Doug Hartley 526]

The RMR with dual illumination is the hot ticket, no batteries to run out and it changes the brightness of the dot depending on the ambient light. In the pitch dark there is tritium to light the dot. I won one at the Multigun Nationals and had a chance to play with it a bit. It looks like the most rugged RDS I have seen. Only problem was that it was the amber dot, so I sold it. I have both the Burris Fast Fire and C-More STS sights. I used the Burris (has a 2 postion switch, Off and Auto) on my Glock 34 and had several shake apart. No problem they replaced them no questions asked, but it means I needed to have 2 in rotation to have one working all the time. The STS I have not shot a lot but I like the controls better. It has a 3 postion switch, Off, Auto and Max. Has a very bright dot available in 2 sizes, 3.5 and 7 MOA I believe. I am currently using the Burris on my Saiga (have never had a problem with one on the Saiga and I glued the switch in the Auto postion to keep from accidentally shutting it off during competition) and I'm using the STS as a side dot on my competiton rifle.

 

As for a dot on a fighting gun, its the cats meow for low light shooting (as opposed to a laser, with a RDS, you can see the target and the dot, but the target can't see the dot). These battery powered sights like the Burris, Doctor and STS on Auto, will light the dot sufficiently so that you can see your aimpoint even in low light situations. The RMR dual(they make one that uses a battery like the other RDS) uses tritium to light the dot in low light situations. Barrel length is not important as long as your loads have some power, you don't need sight radius to aim. There was a guy at the Nationals a few years ago that was touting a holster that was made to use with a Doctor sight on a Glock for police. The holster covered the sight so it was in sleep mode and when you drew the gun it turned on. If I was keeping one by my bed I would leave the sight turned on and use the cap to make the battery last longer. When trouble comes knocking, whip off the cap and you're in business.

 

Doug

[badgerw 0]

Mr. J, Mr. Shadoh, and Mr. Doug -

 

Let me try to answer your questions.

 

1. The RM02 sight on my G26 is always on. No switch, no sleep mode, no extra step on the draw. Battery life is 17,000 hours or about two years. I'm gonna change my battery next year.

 

2. I am carrying it in a Tucker Cover Up holster at Appendix (think 1 o'clock from my belt buckle). I am a chubby middle-aged guy, not some slender Pepsi-generation warrior. The sight lies alongside my body. No issues. Same for carrying Strong Side behind my hip in a Tucker "The Answer". YMMV.

 

3. The Dual Illumination RMR's tritium dot is not as bright as the LED at night. OTOH, the Dual Illumination's fiber optic gathers a lot of ambient light. In bright daylight, it is much brighter than the LED.

 

Bill

Edited October 5, 2010 by badgerw

[Jager 1]

I've been carrying a Glock equipped with a Trijicon RMR in an AIWB Seraphim for several months, and nearly ten thousand rounds with zero problems.

[The Sarge 34]

Well I guess I'll provide "noise" from the back of the bleachers here.....more in the form of a few questions. Maybe a statement or two

1. I am curious why the quick detachable side mount is not the go to mount? Easy to work with. Doesn't move. Inexpensive. I have over 20 Saiga's always ready to go...all of them with the quick detachable side mount carrying the red dots and lights. As for co-witness...hell that takes about .1 nano seconds to remove the damn thing and go to town with iron sights.

2.Red dots are a funny animal. Folks on the interweb will get their panties in a wad if the red dot is less than $200 dollars. On my Saiga 12's I have a cheap POS from China....these things hold zero forever. Use AAA batteries and are dead nut right on. What more can I ask for?

The above are really just questions....just curious...

 

As for the red dots on a pistol. I have yet to see or be involved in a single instance where a pistol was drawn in a defensive situation where the shooter "aimed"....it doesn't work that way. All my personal experience has been draw, point and fire. I train quite a lot.....and all my training is point and shoot. Both eyes open. Double tap. My pistol never comes above my chest/shoulders. In the real world (and from personal experience)....draw/fire is less than a second and there is no aiming....point and shoot.....there is no time for "aiming" and it would put the shooter at a significant disadvantage if he had to "aim"....

 

Now if you folks are talking about shooting paper at the gun range then OK....I understand...but training for the real world shoot.....both eyes open/pistol chest high/double tap.....practice practice practice. Accuracy is pie plate size (chest) at 15 yards all day long.

 

I now return to the cheap seats.........

[Bridis 319]

But Sarge, what if you're an uber tactical 007 killing machine that is constantly on the hunt for the Taliban and other super villans? I bet you'd be beggin for a RDS for your pistol then.

[The Sarge 34]

LOL....I guess I am just not cool....but I am alive.

I dunno...I own maybe 35-40 semi auto pistols in mint/perfect condition.....However...I am not cool and my main carry is a .44 revolver or my S&W .38 (when in shorts)....I am not belittling or criticizing anybody here for their choices...mans weapon is his/her personal preference....I am not saying I am right and you are wrong....but the bad guys will charge you from behind or "out of nowhere"...and you have a split second to stop the threat. You better train for it....it happens when you least expect it. It must all be muscle memory and I do not rely on "equipment"...I have relied on muscle memory and a uber dependable weapon with serious stopping power. Enough of that .....

Edited October 23, 2010 by The Sarge