nattyiceking 33 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 PLEASE NOTE: If your Saiga doesn't have any problems ejecting low power ammo fired from the hip out of a fully loaded MD-20 20rd drum this isn't the piston for you and our Stainless Saiga Piston will better meet your needs and can be ordered by clicking here. The Booster piston is not recommended for use with high power ammo unless you have replaced the factory gas plug with the MD Arms V-Plug. Using high brass ammo in combination with the Booster Piston and the factory gas plug will over work the system. Also please note that although the increase in cycling power is significant it is still not enough to account for a missing gas port in your Saiga. I'm currently using the factory puck and plug and my S12 will FTE every time If I try shooting from the hip, but it cycles flawlessly when I fire from the shoulder. Will this booster puck really make that much of a difference? It most definately will. If you can fire from the shoulder with the factory no problem it will definately make your gun fire from the hip no problem with the booster piston. I will dig out some test results and post them. But in brief one new from the box 19inch 3 portgun that had a few ftes from a fully loaded MD-20 with Federal bulk pack from the shoulder would cycle very losely held from the hip using whinchest bulk and even a low recoil remington that was only 2 3/4 dram (instead of the bulk pack 3 dram). That exact ammo was Remington Permier STS Light Target 2 3/4 dram, 1 1/8 oz shot. The factory piston wasn't even thinking about firing this ammo or winchest bulk from the shoulder buyt did all day without fail from the hip with the booster plug. Like I said, there is no other piston on the market that increases cycling power like the booster plug. I'll go through the test data a post the exact numbers, firing postion, and ammo from this gun in discusion. But I garantee it. Well shit, I guess I'm sold. My S12 is a 19" 3 port gun also. You recommend the VPlug for using high brass along with the booster puck. Can you elaborate a little bit on how not using the Vplug will "overwork the system"? Because all saiga-12s with the factory gas plug over work the system with some of the hottest high power rounds; like some 3 inch slugs or 2 3/4 or 3 inch turkey loads both. Some guns are a lot worse than others too depending how your gas block and/or factory gas plug is threaded. If you view the V-Plug page on our site you will see an example of the great difference of gas flow on the high brass setting in the same gas block from 2 different factory gas plugs. If you add in a significant increase in cycling power from the booster piston it will only multiply the issue. The V-Plug will eliminate the issue when used properly. Got it. I shoot mostly Federal bulk, but like to mix it up once in a while (3" slugs steel/buck shot). I've been holding off on the VPlug for a long time, but now I have a reason to finally buy one. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm trying to order the Booster Puck and VPlug and I'm getting this error message: Cookies and Privacy https://www.mdarms.com/index.php?main_page=cookie_usage My computer has Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. As far as I can tell when I go in the options "Cookies" are enabled. Is there a way around this?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peckaldee 12 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Seems like the difference is the weight of the plug if profiles and coatings are not the contributing factors. Titanium? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm trying to order the Booster Puck and VPlug and I'm getting this error message: Cookies and Privacy https://www.mdarms.com/index.php?main_page=cookie_usage My computer has Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. As far as I can tell when I go in the options "Cookies" are enabled. Is there a way around this?? Mechanically inclined but bordering on computer illiterate... If it keeps giving you problems let me know and I'll have someone that is computer friendly take a look at it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tbizzle 18 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Just ordered one of the Booster pucks. If it works as well as your drum and v-plug then I'm sure I'll be highly satisfied. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tbizzle 18 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I know you said that you were gonna post test results from the booster plug but just off the top of your head what % of increased reliability are we talking about with the lightest loads like the federal bulk pack? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm trying to order the Booster Puck and VPlug and I'm getting this error message: Cookies and Privacy https://www.mdarms.c...ge=cookie_usage My computer has Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. As far as I can tell when I go in the options "Cookies" are enabled. Is there a way around this?? Mechanically inclined but bordering on computer illiterate... If it keeps giving you problems let me know and I'll have someone that is computer friendly take a look at it. I had to download Internet Explorer and use that to place my order, no big deal. It might be a good idea though to have whoever runs your website look into making it work with FireFox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Looks familiar... Yeah, so do the pistons from a Chevy LS1 and a Ford 351 Cleveland V8... but they are not. There are only so many ways to make the basic shape and have it function in a S12. The differences are going to be pretty subtle. Now admittedly the pistons in an internal combustion engine is a different beast, and is capable of deriving more power from enhanced combustion efficiency. These are more akin to a compressor piston. I am wondering if the Booster model will be capable of overcoming the difference I anticipate if I take my stock barrel back to 18.25 inch, counting the muzzle brake... I haven't tested this yet. I did test in a 24 inch cut to 19 inches and it could tough the deficencey there. It is hard to say. I will put it on my list to test. If you want to give it a try I can send you a sample. Are you saying that it did manage to compensate for the deficiency in a 24 inch cut to 19 inch? If so, I would be interested in testing it myself. My gun is only a 3 port, but the total surface area of the ports is equal to that of a three port. This is how it came from the factory and drilling the 4th port would have most likely over gassed the gun as well as being problematic due to the factory pattern. It is a good running gun now, but I anticipate my desired change will screw that up. I will be sending you a PM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Well, since I didn't see it explained, the only guess I can take at the booster's difference must be the material it's made from. Is it heavier? Edited March 22, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrOneEyedBoh 14 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 The face that is dished ( recessed ) is going to help too. Think high compression pistons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Would the weight of the puck make a difference? If the puck is lighter, would it be pushed around by the gases more effectively? The factory puck is pretty heavy. You nailed it. The concept started about a year ago. I was wondering if by increasing the weight of the piston if it would transfer more energy to the action. We got some tungsten and made a piston. The piston was about 3 times heavier than the factory steel piston. Tungsten is often used as a base metal in counterfeit gold bars and coins because it is so heavy. Anyways... Took it the range to test the cyclic rate in our full auto to compare to the factory piston. Our full auto is already a hot running gun and will fire low brass Winchester bulk pack one handed from the hip no problem with the factory piston... Shouldered and fired (using Federal bulk pack)... FTE! The same and the same until the drum was about half empty. At this point it did run but the cyclic rate was reduced around 100rds per minute, roughly a 16 to 18% decrease in cyclic rate. I confirmed at this point that the energy transferred from the piston to bolt carrier was from pushing rather than impact. Immediately it was apparent that if the increase in weight hurt, a decrease would help... The booster piston is roughly 1/3 the weight of a steel piston. It is not titanium. Titanium is very expensive and the price of the booster piston would have been off the charts if that was what was used. Also typical titanium can crack and chip. There is probably a titanium alloy that would have been a good match but it would likely have been more expensive than the standard titanium alloys available. I will not say the exact alloy we used because it was at great time and expense nailing down just the right material for the job. Anyone that copies us on the concept will have to either release one made of an inferior alloy or go through the same pain staking process we did. There are many alloys of similar weight but very few with the right properties that will make a quality piston that will last for any real use. The diomandized finish on the Booster piston is primarily for corrosion and wear (to piston) resistance. It also has a very low coeffiecency of friction and great release properties which makes cleaning easier. This specific finish is properitary to the company that does it for us. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I know you said that you were gonna post test results from the booster plug but just off the top of your head what % of increased reliability are we talking about with the lightest loads like the federal bulk pack? So far in all guns (not missing ports) it was 100%. Even from the hip! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm trying to order the Booster Puck and VPlug and I'm getting this error message: Cookies and Privacy https://www.mdarms.c...ge=cookie_usage My computer has Firefox instead of Internet Explorer. As far as I can tell when I go in the options "Cookies" are enabled. Is there a way around this?? Mechanically inclined but bordering on computer illiterate... If it keeps giving you problems let me know and I'll have someone that is computer friendly take a look at it. I had to download Internet Explorer and use that to place my order, no big deal. It might be a good idea though to have whoever runs your website look into making it work with FireFox Will do. We reasently rebuilt the store. The guy that did it for us went to school for I.T. but you sure wouldn't know it for as jacked up as our website is. He is no longer with the company... We are going to hire a professional to redo it again here soon and I'll mention the firefox. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Are you saying that it did manage to compensate for the deficiency in a 24 inch cut to 19 inch? If so, I would be interested in testing it myself. My gun is only a 3 port, but the total surface area of the ports is equal to that of a three port. This is how it came from the factory and drilling the 4th port would have most likely over gassed the gun as well as being problematic due to the factory pattern. It is a good running gun now, but I anticipate my desired change will screw that up. I will be sending you a PM. Sorry, I missed the typos. I fixed it in the original thread. No, it wasn't close to overcoming the missing port. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 We do have rail systems in the works... That are coming out right after double stack mags right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 WOW!!! I was just informed by Lauren that we just received a very nasty voicemail from King's Armory... It stated that I exactly copied their design and that although I said their design didn't do anything that mine does, among other ramblings. He also stated I was only a couple hours drive away! King's Armory, Are you kinding me? You can openly bash E-Tac on the twister piston but I can't give my opinion on the KA piston? First off I didn't bash, second off if you don't like what I said don't jack up your claims that are so easily called as BS. And to further point out if you read and look carefully you will see the design is different. First off our design intent and advertised features are totally different and conflicting. Mine are correct and yours are wrong... I had gas chamber volume increase in consideration because it hurts, not help like you advertised. The dished area is smooth and flowing in ours and not choppy and broken like the KA piston. Most importantly if you read our stainless piston info you will see I clearly state that the dished area isn't considered a reliability increaser which it most definately shouldn't be claimed. I think the real issue here is I am now selling a better designed piston than the KA piston for $10 compared to the KA's $30 or so piston and I'm selling a booster piston that will really work as advertised for $16. While we're at it I also want to call complete BS on your reported 1 to 2 thousand rounds fired before cleaning that you state on the KA piston. That has been urking me for a couple years now because it is one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen stated about an aftermarket saiga item. It's your name though I guess. But it is also this spewing of crap that makes me have to better explain why ours is different. Because the BS and distrust transfers over from items that don't live up to the stated claims. What a complete rip off your KA piston has been and you should be ashamed of yourself! At least the Twister piston really does help keep the gun clean a little longer... Do yourself a favor and don't bother calling back. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 +1 MD Arms -1 Kings Armory Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 mike i order the booster plug for 2 reasons well 3? you make a great drum and v-plug, you answered most of my questions without being an ass, and your forum reputation is outstanding! what the hell its $18.92 experiment that I believe will be worth it to compare to the factory and my other one! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Mike, just to distill down all of this information and to recap. If I am correct: 1) The standard piston is made of stainless steel and is not coated in anything. 2) The booster piston shares the same cup profile as the standard piston but is made of a different alloy of steel to make it lighter and has a specialized coating. 3) The smooth profile of the dish is to reduce turbulence when gas enters the chamber to reduce gas leakage around the piston. 4) The nipple at the center of the piston is to ensure that it does not move too far forward in the gas block as it returns forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 +1 Just ordered one of the Booster pucks. If it works as well as your drum and v-plug then I'm sure I'll be highly satisfied. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Do yourself a favor and don't bother calling back. Sorry, just have to point out something here. You're awesome. I was considering the KA piston for awhile(as I think it was the best available), but I would never pay $30-$45 that seems to be the going rate. Also, please make some saiga magazines. Any and all calibers, single or double stack. Hell, even a single stack 8 round stick mag made to the same standards as your drum would make me jump for joy. Edited March 22, 2011 by Tombs 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scatillac 22 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Why must you make everything so affordable? Now if you can just make a metal tri-rail for the S12 and sell it for $20 LOL. I will be getting me one of these, or possibly both. We do have rail systems in the works... Bring it! Been holding out for the right one. And also gonna go order a stainless piston. And please don't raise the prices on the 20 rd drum, because I am going to buy 1 or 2 more here in a couple months! Edited March 22, 2011 by Scatillac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mobilecommand 0 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Someone is pissed at the AZ shooting site over the MD arms Piston http://www.arizonash...hp?f=2&t=131882 ".....from the faggots at MD Arms." poster "kingjoey" Edited March 22, 2011 by mobilecommand Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Wow, well looks like I'll never buy a thing from KA. That's the most absurdly childish bullshit I've ever seen a company pull. Edited March 22, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Someone is pissed at the AZ shooting site over the MD arms Piston http://www.arizonash...hp?f=2&t=131882 ".....from the faggots at MD Arms." poster "kingjoey" What the 'PUCK'? Edited March 22, 2011 by King of the Hill 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 WOW! similar look does not mean copy or same? besides they say the guy that invented the paper clip recv'd 50-100k for it and the guy who invented the rough ridges on the clip to hold the paper better got 300k? KA planning a attack will only get you and less in the end just my Someone is pissed at the AZ shooting site over the MD arms Piston http://www.arizonash...hp?f=2&t=131882 ".....from the faggots at MD Arms." poster "kingjoey" What the 'PUCK'? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxxpez 5 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 That's a little ridiculous that a grown man that runs a business will play the name calling like that. Don't think KA will be seeing any of my money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 md has my business great outfit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrOneEyedBoh 14 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 So what would be the piston to get if your gun is reliable. The ss piston, or just go out and get the booster one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 How about a new game called guess the new material-7075 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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