Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I had bought close on 1200 rounds of surplus yugo ammo. While it is not too bad (Minute Of Bad Guy), i was wondering if different ammo would have a drastic difference in patterning. Turns out, yah, it does. The green highlighted areas are Winchester getting sighted in. I had to adjust the scope because it was shooting the winchester high and right. Blue area is Winchester sighted in Orange ares are Yugo surp. the three groups in the blue area are 3 shot groups. MOA out of a 20 inch saiga? hell yah. the target was a 12 inch shoot-n-c at 100 yards. the scope i use is a Redfield 3 to 9 magnification... 35 mm lens? something like that. I tested this because i was getting a little frustrated with the surplus stuff. I know that they dont make military ammo to the greatest tolerances, but its amazing at how much of a difference there is between commercial and Mil-Surp ammo. I was shocked, to say the least. as soon as the surp runs out, im going to get maybe 100 rounds of golden bear. Not as good as the winchester, but its almost half the price, and the groups are only a little bigger. the quest for the most economical, tightest grouping ammo is on! If you guys have pics, please submit them! maybe we can get a sticky going... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 forgot to add that this was benched on a foam rest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 WOW, quite the difference. I almost picked up a box of the Win. and Rem. brass 7.62x39 at the local Farm and Fleet the other day but at $13-$15 for 20, i cant justify it. I guess "minute of bad guy" wins out for me. Curious, were you hand feeding rounds or letting the action work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 yup, I was letting the action work. The only reason i picked up the winchester was we were at walmart getting some targets and ammo for my brothers AR and I saw this 40 round 'fun pack' of winchester whitebox for 25 bucks. Nearly fell on my back seeing it on the ammo shelves as they are usually cleaned out at this particular walmart. true, the cost is prohibitive, but seeing what the rifle can do with pretty good ammo was worth it I will be getting different brands of ammo from here on out and posting the results until i find the sweetest combo of price and grouping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Good stuff. Your post makes me want to get a couple of boxes to play with. Keep updating this with your findings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 for sure! i'd say get a box or two to see what results you get and i i will keep this thread updated as i put rounds down range Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pjj342 632 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 how much did you pay for the 1260rds of yugo? What Im getting at is, how much more would you pay for the same amount of wolf or bear, and would it be worth it to spend the extra money on the commercial russian stuff for a little tighter groups? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) I thought it was pretty well known that different ammo will print differently out of the same gun, and that the same ammo will print differently out of different but identical guns. You have to find which ammo your gun "likes" and stick with it for consistent accuracy. Surplus and military ammo are meant for "suppressive fire", which means "get the lead downrange, something will fall." Edited August 15, 2011 by Yeoldetool 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I thought it was pretty well known that different ammo will print differently out of the same gun, and that the same ammo will print differently out of different but identical guns. You have to find which ammo your gun "likes" and stick with it for consistent accuracy. Surplus and military ammo are meant for "suppressive fire", which means "get the lead downrange, something will fall." I know that. I just find it interesting that its THAT accurate! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I thought it was pretty well known that different ammo will print differently out of the same gun, and that the same ammo will print differently out of different but identical guns. You have to find which ammo your gun "likes" and stick with it for consistent accuracy. Surplus and military ammo are meant for "suppressive fire", which means "get the lead downrange, something will fall." I know that. I just find it interesting that its THAT accurate! It's supposed to be. It's a rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 how much did you pay for the 1260rds of yugo? What Im getting at is, how much more would you pay for the same amount of wolf or bear, and would it be worth it to spend the extra money on the commercial russian stuff for a little tighter groups? well, i paid around 260 dollars for the 1260 of yugo. A very good price for the quantity. I did try a box of golden tiger, but didnt take any photos of the groups... If you take my word for it (until i take it back out for photo evidence ) it was printing just a little looser than the winchester. So... Would i pay a bit more for tighter grouping ammo? yup. I wont pay for a crate of winchester or remington though... I am going to fire a whole range of affordable ammo (the various bears, wolf, etc) to see which gives me the best bang for my buck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I thought it was pretty well known that different ammo will print differently out of the same gun, and that the same ammo will print differently out of different but identical guns. You have to find which ammo your gun "likes" and stick with it for consistent accuracy. Surplus and military ammo are meant for "suppressive fire", which means "get the lead downrange, something will fall." I know that. I just find it interesting that its THAT accurate! It's supposed to be. It's a rifle. well, the way I have my rifle set up is for more of a 'designated marksman' kind of deal. being able to hit something realiably out to 400 or 500 yards is more important to me that slinging lead If i had the 16" barrel, i would have gone for that setup though. the interesting thing is that how 'loose' the mil-surp ammo is, and how much better the commercial stuff is. Right now i have both ends of the spectrum. The cheap, mil surp that will probably hit something, and the very good USA commercial ammo that WILL hit something. i will find a middle of the road round that will be my mainstay. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 It's supposed to be. It's a rifle. Really, its not suppose to be that accurate, you know the stigma. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 It's supposed to be. It's a rifle. Really, its not suppose to be that accurate, you know the stigma. LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rockina 60 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I guess that the target you were shooting at 100 yards would be either dead or dying with ANY of the ammo., that's good enough for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
555JM 10 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 Before I bought my Saiga, I was looking forward to working up a handload that the rifle liked. Even a mediocre rifle will often have one or two loads that it performs well with. However, the brass mutilation at the neck put an end to that idea. Two loads in a case and the neck splits and the case is junk. I hear some are getting 7.62x39s that don't leave a ring on the case neck. I'd think about buying a couple more if I knew I could get those. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I like your idea of finding a load that balances accuracy and price. What a great economic calculation! I am going to do the same thing when I get my rifle back from Rifle Dynanmics. I wouldn't mind having a little ammo on hand that was crazy accurate (be it Hornady, Winchester, S&B, etc.) but for bulk shooting I want something reasonably accurate and not painful to buy! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I like your idea of finding a load that balances accuracy and price. What a great economic calculation! I am going to do the same thing when I get my rifle back from Rifle Dynanmics. I wouldn't mind having a little ammo on hand that was crazy accurate (be it Hornady, Winchester, S&B, etc.) but for bulk shooting I want something reasonably accurate and not painful to buy! for sure! if you take your rifle out, keep photographic evidence of the rounds you use. I would love to have a bunch of us trying out different ammo to see which particular brand Saigas do well with. Do you have a 20 inch or 16 inch barrel, because that is another variable we can start playing with. Maybe, just maybe, we can see if there really is a marked ballistic difference between the two lengths Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 16 inch data would be most helpful. Most AKs will be 16 inch barreled (like both of mine). However at 100 yards, any data should be very helpful as a whole. Pictures of the results make it harder to dispute as well. This would also be very helpful for SD situations where the less rounds you have to fire, the better. I just got done dumping 40 rounds of .40 S&W PMC JHPs, pretty nice ammo. Now I have some more JHPs loaded up so that's what got me thinking about SD I think. Also, info on the kind of powder in each round would help our reloaders here out (Like me who is trying to gather as much info as possible, as I am going to be a newb reloader.). I'll see if I can follow this topic, sounds like we have a good thing going here. Nice idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 16 inch data would be most helpful. Most AKs will be 16 inch barreled (like both of mine). However at 100 yards, any data should be very helpful as a whole. Pictures of the results make it harder to dispute as well. This would also be very helpful for SD situations where the less rounds you have to fire, the better. I just got done dumping 40 rounds of .40 S&W PMC JHPs, pretty nice ammo. Now I have some more JHPs loaded up so that's what got me thinking about SD I think. Also, info on the kind of powder in each round would help our reloaders here out (Like me who is trying to gather as much info as possible, as I am going to be a newb reloader.). I'll see if I can follow this topic, sounds like we have a good thing going here. Nice idea. good thinking! i will post as much data about the rounds themselves next time. Im not too sure i will be able to help with the type of powder though but if we could get as many variations (barrel length, converted or unconverted rifle, bullet weight, brand, etc) it could help out people when they are standing in the ammo aisle trying to figure out what to get. I go out to the range every two weeks, so after each trip i will post data. If anyone else wants to start gathering this data too there are a couple of guidelines we should implement and follow: Type of rifle (converted or unconverted) Length of barrel brand of ammo specifics of ammo, bullet weight, brass or steel case, type of powder (if it is known) distance of target was the rifle benched climatic conditions (indoor/outdoor range, hot/cold weather, windy/still, humidity, rain etc) I think that about covers it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) One good thing about Winchester, is you can call them from a number off their ammunition website and actually speak to someone with knowledge about the rounds you are using. I have done it before with their 12g Xpert bulk packs because the part number on the box didnt exactly match any on their website. The questions i had regarding dram equivelant and speed were all answered by a guy that sounded like he was ON the manufacturing floor. I was surprised to say the least. EDIT; Of course, now i cant find it. Edited August 15, 2011 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fromxtor 20 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 This reminds me, next time I qualify with the M16 I'm bringing my own ammo. The stuff they make us shoot is not only filthy, I am convinced it affects my groups. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted August 15, 2011 Report Share Posted August 15, 2011 I've heard that the Hornady V-Max is about as accurate as you can get and better priced than the Win. I tend to pick up the Win by the box or two everytime I go to my local Meijer to get groceries,esp when on sale. Adds up quick but less up front cost. I aquired a hundred rounds in a month before I had my rifle, lol. I plan to "top" my 30-40rnd mags with 5rnds of the Win(or V-Max when I can get it). I figure start for accuracy, and if they get past the first 5, unleash Hel. Good thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 This reminds me, next time I qualify with the M16 I'm bringing my own ammo. The stuff they make us shoot is not only filthy, I am convinced it affects my groups. I'd say go for it! take your own ammo next time. I believe you when you say the ammo may be affecting your groups. I proved this to myself with the test that i did the other day. we are not crazy!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I've heard that the Hornady V-Max is about as accurate as you can get and better priced than the Win. I tend to pick up the Win by the box or two everytime I go to my local Meijer to get groceries,esp when on sale. Adds up quick but less up front cost. I aquired a hundred rounds in a month before I had my rifle, lol. I plan to "top" my 30-40rnd mags with 5rnds of the Win(or V-Max when I can get it). I figure start for accuracy, and if they get past the first 5, unleash Hel. Good thread. I just ordered a box of the hornady steel case 50 rounds for 33 bucks. I will let you all know how they do when we go back to the range next weekend... Man, this is fun! as for topping your mags with accurate ammo, thats a great idea! Right now i have 6 rounds of frangible home defense rounds in my main mag... I dont know what they shoot like, as 6 rounds cost 30 odd dollars... as a side note, I like the quote from Odin in your signature sir. I plan on carving a series of runes into the buttstock of my remmy 870. might do the same for the buttstock of the saiga... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 Try some golden tiger, I can get 2 1/4" - 2 1/2" groups with that with iron sights at 100 yards. For whatever reason my Saiga loves that stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 Try some golden tiger, I can get 2 1/4" - 2 1/2" groups with that with iron sights at 100 yards. For whatever reason my Saiga loves that stuff. will do! i used golden tiger once before and it was pretty good. Once i do a report on the hornady, Golden Tiger will be next under my inscrutable eye and, if you go shooting in the meantime with it, take pics and post them using the guidelines posted above Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 won't tell you much about your rifle. Mine is a 16", 11 degree crowned barrel threaded with a slant break, traditional AK furnature, and a red star arms FCG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 This reminds me, next time I qualify with the M16 I'm bringing my own ammo. The stuff they make us shoot is not only filthy, I am convinced it affects my groups. Many sniper teams use reload rounds. Keep tabs on your accuracy with data and results, wind conditions, elevations, target height, range to target, heat, humidity and the adjustments made. Range cards are very very helpful for tracking down your search for the perfect hit on the target. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 This reminds me, next time I qualify with the M16 I'm bringing my own ammo. The stuff they make us shoot is not only filthy, I am convinced it affects my groups. Many sniper teams use reload rounds. Keep tabs on your accuracy with data and results, wind conditions, elevations, target height, range to target, heat, humidity and the adjustments made. Range cards are very very helpful for tracking down your search for the perfect hit on the target. I'm thoroughly convinced I get better accuracy with my reloads. I also make them for a little below the price of the absolutely cheapest surplus stuff on the internet, and I enjoy reloading. I see it as getting the best possible ammo at the best possible price. Win-win. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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