Kaboom/exploding Saiga 12

[defcon 21]

I bought a lower AR receiver a couple of weeks ago and I just bought a Saiga 12 shortly right after. I've been watching youtube videos and reading on ar15.com and calguns.net on exploding AR15's and I was wondering if there's known instances for exploding Saiga 12's due to head spacing, double feeds, etc. I've also learned the AR guys use the SPORTS method which is good to know.

 

Are there any other safety advice on what not to do or what to look for to prevent kabooms or explosions?

 

I'm still new to the gun world and I'm still reading/learning a lot.

[YARP 300]

First-ignore what you see on the internet. There really aren't that many guns that go kaboom out there.

Second-a majority of those kabooms happen because some asshole stuck to much powder in the case when reloading.

Third-the same asshole from the second sceanrio didn't put enough powder in a reload which creates a squib (bullet stuck in barrel) being the genious that he or she is, they shoot another round with the other one still stuck in the barrel.

Fourth-double feeds causing a kaboom are pretty rare.

Fifth-if your new to guns buy your stuff don't build it. If you didn't know how to put brakes on your car but felt like being cheap......What tree do you think you'd be parking your car in later by doing it yourself?

Sixth-use common sense ALL THE TIME.

Seven-if you think someones an idiot and may screw your shit up then there probably best to avoid when using guns. (AKA that stupid friend everyone has that they've known since child birth.)

 

follow these simple rules and have fun!

Edited September 8, 2011 by YARP

[defcon 21]

Thanks a lot!

 

Yea I read that I should avoid reloads as well. Also I see these abbreviations of FTE and FTF. Does that mean Failure to Eject and Failure to Feed? Would any of these two contribute to a kaboom?

 

The only thing I'm doing is the conversion and I'm confident enough to tackle it. Bought it new from Greg at CSS.

Edited September 8, 2011 by defcon

[YARP 300]

Thanks a lot!

 

Yea I read that I should avoid reloads as well. Also I see these abbreviations of FTE and FTF. Does that mean Failure to Eject and Failure to Feed? Would any of these two contribute to a kaboom?

 

The only thing I'm doing is the conversion and I'm confident enough to tackle it. Bought it new from Greg at CSS.

 

No problem.

Failure to fire, failure to feed, failure to eject..........the lists of acronyms can be overwhelming.

 

Usually on a failure to fire the round either

A. has a bad primer (there fore the round can't kaboom cause it won't even fire)

B. Had a light primer strike by the firing pin, so slamming another loaded round in to it will most likely not set that round off (AKA double feed kaboom) notice how I said most likely, dumber things have happened in the world though.

 

Failure to eject means the bullet went out of the barrel but the spent case didn't eject. In short no bullet or powder left=no kaboom

 

failure to feed-gun can't go kaboom without a round in there.

 

 

In short, get yourself some training and stop worrying about kabooms.

[csspecs 1,987]

Kabooms with shotguns are less impressive then rifle Kabooms. Rifles are MUCH higher pressure.

 

Kabooms happen mostly to reloaders who mix up powders or load over maximum levels. Reloading for auto loading firearms requires you follow the instructions more carefully.

[magsite20 1,664]

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

No problem.

Failure to fire, failure to feed, failure to eject.........''''.the lists of acronyms can be overwhelming.''''

 

No kiddin'....

 

Recall the bicycle you got as a kid? The one where you had to stand upon the edge of the porch in order to mount it? And in order to dismount it, you had to just simultaneously throw the moving bike over on the ground, while stepping/falliing off of it? Remember how proud you were of having it, having mounted it, and then riding it?

 

Until you breeched the front wheel on some gravel, washed out, and ended up in the emergency room for the removal of at least a cupful of 'little gravels' from your arms, legs, shoulders and hips?

 

And didn't want to get back on it. All the fun of riding, all the pleasure of ownership, all the plans of long bike trips, the contemplation of all those things now just fills your belly up with bile, and your mind with dread.

 

 

 

Well, that's what acronyms are doing to me. They're killing me. They're taking a profitable, fascinating and totally fun hobby and turning it into that bicycle. No, that bicycle wreck. I mean, come on! How many acronyms can one man hold in memory?

 

Any given thread on this forum will present you with dozens of acronyms, and if you mix even a small dose of AK 47erism in, it gets so many times worse. And God forbid you should read CTD's list of available bullet types. You may be unable to work the next day. And GUNS AND AMMO? It's almost as much acronym as regular words. Add anything written by Clint Smith into anything, his atrocious grammer, and mispelled words (Extinction Alert!! Gone like the Dodo bird are those interesting animals known as 'proof readers') will give you an Excedrin headache par excellence to boot. I tell you, it's getting to be more than a body can stand.

 

My kid is contemplating his master's thesis in sociology. I've offered two excellent subjects, 1) The teenaged girl and digital entertainment, and 2) The TACTICAL world and acronyms. I haven't heard as to which way he'll go, but either one might well contribute mightily to our sociological lexicon.

 

So, I guess I'll get my SBS (ooops, Sorry, that's my Sunday Bible Study...or is it my Side by Side shotgun? Or maybe my Short barreled Shotgun, shucks, I'm so acronym addled that I can't even figure that one out).

 

 

 

But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I figure the quickest way to attempt suicide is to get a big bowl of heavily buttered and salted popcorn, and head on over to the AKfiles. Popcorn and AK acronyms just has to be the best killer going.

 

 

Written and proudly signed by PJJ.

[tialloydragon 1]

The only issue I have on rare occasions with what I would call a "cartridge failure" in shotgun shells is the plastic part of the shell can separate from the metal base and either fire completely out of the barrel with the rest of the payload, or it needs to be pushed out with a cleaning rod. This typically happens when a hull is reloaded way too many times. I have never seen this happen in a semi-auto shotgun.

 

You could also have an instance where a shell has no powder in it, and the primer propels the wad half way down the barrel, and the shot spills out the end of the barrel. Usually it is easily recognized, because the bolt will not cycle, and you will have to clear it manually to cycle a fresh shell and remove the plastic wad from the barrel.

 

It also seems hard to cause a major failure from overcharging a shotgun shell the way a pistol or rifle cartridge does. I don't have any info to back this up, but I have been working at the trap and sporting clays events at my club for 12 years, and I have never seen a shotgun explode.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

WTF, LOL, HRLG

[Bvamp 604]

i will answer this pretty directly.

 

In dealing with this forum since nearly its creation, in dealing with Warranty providers for the saiga-12, in my discussions and information exchanges with many vendors, including a previous importer...

 

No.

 

 

The only problems I have ever seen from someone "overdoing it" with sending a 3" buckshot load down the gun with the wrong gas setting...the result was a broken or bent Op rod, and the dust cover popping loose from the front trunnion. The Russians obviously anticipated this error (which is a user error and not a malfunction) by installing a retaining button on the mainspring latch to hold it in place.

 

I abused the living shit out of my own Saiga-12, and while doing so, cleaned it THREE TIMES ever in the years that I owned it. Not one problem that I did not cause.

[netpackrat 566]

Kabooms happen mostly to reloaders who mix up powders or load over maximum levels. Reloading for auto loading firearms requires you follow the instructions more carefully.

 

This, but it isn't just "over" charges that you have to worry about, "under" charges carry their own brands of danger. And as soon as you start to think that you've got it whipped, or that your shit doesn't stink, it's time to quit reloading. Earlier this year I caught myself trying to double charge a 2-3/4" hull for my S-12. I'm loading a Lee 1 oz. slug over 30 plus grains of HS-6... Wonder what close to 70 grains of that powder would have done to my S-12? (not that I really have to wonder) I'm pretty sure that load wouldn't have crimped right had it got to that stage (caught it while shoving the slug and wad into the hull), but it actually illustrates why you shouldn't deviate from published data... In either direction.

 

Since I use reloads primarily for practice, and keep factory loads in my shotgun for defense, it would be real tempting to reduce the charges down to the minimum that will cycle the gun on the lowest gas setting, to make shooting more pleasant as well as economical. Had I done that, I could very easily have not caught that error. Might have ended up with an overcharge of say 50 or so total grains in that hull, which I may have missed, with potentially disastrous results. And since I "knew" I was using light loads, it would obviously have been the gun's fault, right? Because I'm a careful reloader, and all of that. It might not even have blown right then; it could have held together and then let go when I was dumping a mag full of factory 3" magnums. Which obviously would have been at fault... </sarcasm>

 

Bottom line, no matter how careful you are, you are eventually going to screw something up reloading if you stay at it for long enough. A couple of observations I have made... 1) you have to take reports of guns going kaboom with a big grain of salt, even if the shooter swears he was using factory ammo at the time. And 2) ...reloading safety is more than the care you take in your process. Intelligent load selection can save your ass when an error inevitably creeps into your work, and the lightest, softest loads aren't necessarily the safest, for multiple reasons.

[G O B 3,516]

Sorry guy, but if you want to KB a shotgun the S-12 will be no fun at all! These things are overbuilt like Russian tanks. The whole gun is overly strong, the barrel is hammer forged and HEAVY. The bolt is strong, with massive lugs. Based on the AK military design, the bolt and fire control group have safety features that are not on most shotguns. The Saiga firing pin cannot be struck by the hammer unless the bolt is fully locked - no out of battery discharges. Unlike the $$$$ 'sporting' guns!

 

That said most shotgun KB's are caused by mixing a 20ga shell in with the 12s. The under size round falls into the barrel and the rim catches at the choke, next round makes it go BOOM! Even there the Saiga is less likely than a pump for that to happen. With a pump it is easy to forget whether you racked the action, so a FTF will most often result in just racking and retrying. With the Saiga the bolt must be hand cycled, and the AK design allows the chamber to be seen when you do. The missing shell is a lot more apparent!

[yooper14.5 84]

Sorry guy, but if you want to KB a shotgun the S-12 will be no fun at all! These things are overbuilt like Russian tanks. The whole gun is overly strong, the barrel is hammer forged and HEAVY. The bolt is strong, with massive lugs. Based on the AK military design, the bolt and fire control group have safety features that are not on most shotguns. The Saiga firing pin cannot be struck by the hammer unless the bolt is fully locked - no out of battery discharges. Unlike the $$$$ 'sporting' guns!

 

That said most shotgun KB's are caused by mixing a 20ga shell in with the 12s. The under size round falls into the barrel and the rim catches at the choke, next round makes it go BOOM! Even there the Saiga is less likely than a pump for that to happen. With a pump it is easy to forget whether you racked the action, so a FTF will most often result in just racking and retrying. With the Saiga the bolt must be hand cycled, and the AK design allows the chamber to be seen when you do. The missing shell is a lot more apparent!

 

Not to mention its kinda hard to put a 20 guage shell in a 12 guage magazine.........

[csmw 98]

I abused the living shit out of my own Saiga-12, and while doing so, cleaned it THREE TIMES ever in the years that I owned it.

 

We must be distant relatives

Shop/customer guns, I am OCD about everything.

My personal guns? Oh, I feel sorry for them

+1 on what you said, I have hammered my personal gun into the ground and she keeps running like a champ.

[kindapointless 22]

I would love to test one to destruction. These damn things are built more heavy duty then my 3 1/2 mag or my h and r 10 gauge. With the way the lugs are on the bolt and the thick ass heavy duty barrel I think they could handle way more then 10500. They only way to know would be to work loads up while having it in a jig get it to a level u like then tear it down a xray and ultrasound the whole damn thing for damage. And no I'm not saying go ahead and load the shit out of it.

[scoutjoe 276]

Good luck blowing one up, I know of one that has fired a 3 1/2" shell and still works, trunnion is still intact and op rod isn't bent.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Good luck blowing one up, I know of one that has fired a 3 1/2" shell and still works, trunnion is still intact and op rod isn't bent.

Care to elaborate? Did it eject?

Edited September 12, 2011 by King of the Hill

[netpackrat 566]

Sorry guy, but if you want to KB a shotgun the S-12 will be no fun at all! These things are overbuilt like Russian tanks. The whole gun is overly strong, the barrel is hammer forged and HEAVY. The bolt is strong, with massive lugs. Based on the AK military design, the bolt and fire control group have safety features that are not on most shotguns. The Saiga firing pin cannot be struck by the hammer unless the bolt is fully locked - no out of battery discharges. Unlike the $$$$ 'sporting' guns!

 

It has been my observation, that the more convinced the user is of a mechanical device's indestructibility, the more likely that user is to eventually manage to destroy it. Just saying...

[G O B 3,516]

Sorry guy, but if you want to KB a shotgun the S-12 will be no fun at all! These things are overbuilt like Russian tanks. The whole gun is overly strong, the barrel is hammer forged and HEAVY. The bolt is strong, with massive lugs. Based on the AK military design, the bolt and fire control group have safety features that are not on most shotguns. The Saiga firing pin cannot be struck by the hammer unless the bolt is fully locked - no out of battery discharges. Unlike the $$$$ 'sporting' guns!

 

It has been my observation, that the more convinced the user is of a mechanical device's indestructibility, the more likely that user is to eventually manage to destroy it. Just saying...

 

TRUTH! I had a helper BREAK a 3# Craftsman hammer once!

[scoutjoe 276]

Good luck blowing one up, I know of one that has fired a 3 1/2" shell and still works, trunnion is still intact and op rod isn't bent.

Care to elaborate? Did it eject?

 

It didn't feed off the mag, had to ram it home to get it to close. It did eject though, he thought it was a little "hot" of a round till they looked at the hull.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

An FTE could be a failure to extract, or a failure to eject. Most guys don't differentiate between the two correctly. They act like it's just one process. The casing or hull may extract just fine, but fail to eject. If it doesn't extract, then it hasn't even got into the ejection process yet. It takes a good extractor system to extract the case, but it takes BOTH a good extractor and a good ejector to eject it.

 

The term "double feed" is also completely fucked up, usually by arfcom'rs. The single term is used to describe both feeding two live rounds at the same time, or feeding one live round and re-feeding the extracted empty that didn't eject. These are two completely differenct problems that guys routinely use only one term to explain. So then you end up with a thread that goes on and on while everyone trys to clarify the issue. Usually seen on arfcom where the largest goat ropes originate.

 

Tony