Does the law matter to anyone?

[mrmallek 53]

Please don't take this as a rant - though it most likely is.

 

Since when is it OK to be illegal? I love the melting pot of the USA and the naturalized citizens that we have here as well as those visiting on visas and other legal means. I just have a hard time picking and choosing when being illegal is legally acceptable. Should a woman (or man) who falls susceptible to a substance abuse issue or even a physical accident which detracts from their ability to provide for their family be pardoned for prostituting themself or robbing a bank? - victimless crimes - sorta - the john is happy to pay and the bank is insured. Maybe when their numbers increase -

 

When is it acceptable to trespass because you claim allegiance to a movement - regardless of how 'peaceful' you claim to be? How do some people think the law is wrong for arresting them for breaking it? These people seem like such pussies, what happened to standing up for what you believe in and taking the licks that came with it? If you decide to participate in a protest and commit a crime - you should be arrested (if yu can't run fast enough) - if you can't make it to your job because you were arrested and in jail - your union should fire your ass and give someone more deserving a job - not get on TV criticizing the police for enforcing the laws meant to ensure safety of the general public.

 

Just wondering when I can start vigilanteism and robbing banks to fund it - come on - I'm joking but it gets on my nerves.

[LeoPTY 24]

Rule of law is on the ropes in this country. People can get away with all kinds of shit because it's never their fault. Their circumstances and the pressures of living in an affluent 1st world nation drive them to commit their crimes.

[YOT 3,743]

Oh. It starts at the top.

[pbwe 45]

Topically, this illustrates trivial infighting amongst the peons.

 

The significant rull of law issues, the ones that relate to the current questionable continuance of US society and culture at this time, are the white collar crimes that are never prosecuted (or merely symbolically for media consumption) because of corpoate influence in regulation and legislation. Right now, really, all else is the noise floor pushed by the MSM in service to the interests of their corporate owners. For all appearances, the cops are impotent for prosecuting white collar crime (uhh, didja call the DA? ...); why should that be?

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

When we have no consequences to the laws that keep us a sovereign nation, then we perpetuate the demise of our country.

 

Right now the drug cartels in this country have more rights than law-abiding gun owners and this is by design to keep the people scared and dependent on a government savior that will never come because it created the monster in the first place.

[bohound 281]

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

-Robert Anson Heinlein

 

The way I understand NATURAL LAW to operate: No victim or property damage, no crime. PERIOD.

 

I likewise have absolutely no use for the police. They are a complete and utter waste of tax money, and play little to no role in prevention of crime, or really the lawful administration of justice in the rare instances in which an ACTUAL crime has been committed.

 

They're costumed, armed, involuntary excise tax collectors. No more.

 

What IS law really? It's become a charicature of itself. Accept that, act accordingly.

[DogMan 2,343]

OK with whom? Let's start at the beginning, like about 1776. The revolutionary war was "illegal" in the eyes of the British. Helping slaves escape captivity was "illegal". We could go on and on. I'm not so idealistic as to think that as long as everyone is always following the letter of the law then everything will be just hunky-dory. In fact, think about it, if nobody ever pushed back against laws they see as unjust, then laws and legislators would follow the path of least resistance and become more and more draconian.Yes, we have a need for laws to prevent chaos, but we also have a need for "the people" to have effective resistance to oppression. To answer your question directly.... It's OK (with me) to be illegal when a law violates my own sense of what is right and wrong to the point that I find it untenable. That doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to violate that law. I'll have to weigh that against my desire for my personal freedom. But is it OK? With me it is. Yeah, you bet.

[David Mark 2,452]

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

-Robert Anson Heinlein

 

The Moon really is a harsh mistress.

 

While I may not share your thoughts on LEO's I do share your taste in literature.

 

I do agree that the police can do little to prevent crime. That is the responsibility of the individual.

But I also believe they do serve a purpose as a deterrent in more heavily populated areas.

 

Good to have you back Ms. B

[DonaldDuck 9]

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

-Robert Anson Heinlein

 

The way I understand NATURAL LAW to operate: No victim or property damage, no crime. PERIOD.

 

I likewise have absolutely no use for the police. They are a complete and utter waste of tax money, and play little to no role in prevention of crime, or really the lawful administration of justice in the rare instances in which an ACTUAL crime has been committed.

 

They're costumed, armed, involuntary excise tax collectors. No more.

 

What IS law really? It's become a charicature of itself. Accept that, act accordingly.

I agree whole heartily with you on the first half, but must disagree with the second half to an extent.

 

The police serve a good purpose in an investigatory role & some truly do need them.

I don't like their revanue collection activities, but you simply cannot convincingly argue that they're completely useless.

 

Think of the weak.

My girl for instance. She's so sweet & seriously, without some major traumatic event happening to change her personality first, she really could not hurt anybody.

It's just not in her.

I love that about her & would never want to see that change & her to be hardened.

 

People like her need the police.

Granted, they probably wouldn't show up in time, but she needs them none the less, as do many other citizens.

 

From another perspective, let's look at places without police, or with police who don't do anything.

Let's take Sicily for instance, or in a more current context Iraq.

When we as civilians are left to implement justice a cycle of redundancy begins & before long there are very few men left because we all kill eachother.

Those left generally are weak men & that leads to a weaker nation in general, so the threat of a gang of people that will never stop hunting you no matter how many of them you kill is a good deterrent for many.

 

In a nation with no Police the physically strong dominate the physically weak.

Some of the greatest minds are physically weak. We all benefit from their contributions to society that would not be possible if the strong were able to easily oppress them & take everything they build on a local level.

 

Let's not forget that a good portion of America is comprised of the descendants of criminals who fled their countries, or in some instances were dumped on our shores by their countries, or in other instances were sold into slavery by their tribal chiefs because they were the bane of their societies.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree & furthermore our country embraces criminality.

 

We do need to have a police force if for no other reason to act as a deterrence.

True, Personally I feel I have no need for them to protect my safety & every time I've had to rely on them they've let me down, but they do serve a purpose.

 

Could the culture be refined? Yes.

But that doesn't lessen the need for a police force in a civilized country.

[bohound 281]

Donald Duck- Well thought out and stated. I feel the need to amend my previous statement.

 

For the reasons you stated, I agree- a sheriff is needed, and deputies as he/she sees fit. Paramilitarized state and local police forces, however, have GOT to go.

 

The Sheriff is the ONLY Constitutionally empowered law enforcement entity, regardless of what the LEO groupies and sympathisers will attempt to tell you. I'm sure they'll be citing "color of law" items as their justification of authority, but I digress.

 

You're right, order must be kept. A standing police force serves no purpose though... Keep it the way the framers intended.

 

If done as intended, many people that never intended or WANTED to be sheriff will end up voted to the office. Their DUTY as a citizen will be to discharge their duties to the best of their ability.

 

I think the politician or cop that does not particularly WANT the job would do the BEST job- to get done quicker and wash their hands of it if for no other reason!

 

THAT is what sheriffs and STATESMEN used to be, as I understand. Historical revisionism has almost erased that now, thankfully. (sarcasm).

 

ETA: In the short time since I posted this, I stumbled on this:

 

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=message_to_cops

 

Pretty sure I'm not alone in my feelings. I'm actually trying to make nice with some of the local cops- kind of to help steer them in the right direction when what we all know (but don't want to talk about, or deny) what is going to happen goes down. They're people too, you know.

Edited October 24, 2011 by bohound

[Spartacus 1,619]

Not all laws are "legal".

 

When laws are built upon subversion of the Constitution and rule of law, and outright theft of power, they are invalid.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Not all laws are "legal".

 

When laws are built upon subversion of the Constitution and rule of law, and outright theft of power, they are invalid.

 

thiss

[bohound 281]

Not all laws are "legal".

 

When laws are built upon subversion of the Constitution and rule of law, and outright theft of power, they are invalid.

Marbury vs. Madison? Yeah.

[theturtlepond 31]

Not all laws are "legal".

 

When laws are built upon subversion of the Constitution and rule of law, and outright theft of power, they are invalid.

To bad you'd still go to jail for violating them. When most people agree with them then you are really screwed for not believing them.

[PROBIKE101 0]

lol

[thebuns1 4,323]

most of the laws passed in the last 100 years have done little to benefit the people. most of them have granted power to those in control of this country to have even more bearing over our daily lives. it is their tool to control the population, and those that dont abide are now deemed terrorists. the real terrorists in this nation are in washington and are dragging this country into a pit it will never get out of.

 

sadly,those who create, suggest and ratify these laws, dont adhere to them, nor respect them because they are not bound by the consequences like we are. and thats where the real problems lie. and thats where the problems are created. to clean up this god awful shit mess, thats where we have to start.

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

mark, you cover a lot of ground. as to the illegals. they are here because many people in our govt. want them here. this is just one of the proofs that the war against "terrorism" is a fraud. left unchecked it may cause a civil war. i am somewhat libertarian, and strongly agree with bohound. i may abhor prostitution, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, however, every time our over reaching big brother govt. declares war on something. we always get more it. war on poverty, more poverty, war on drugs, more drugs, war on terror, more terror and more war. if we could just get them to stop declaring war on things.

to me the simplest and best solution would be to scrap the entire system. then enforce only God's law. this would be very unpopular. only two punishments would exist. restitution, payment for damages to others property or person. and execution, for capitol crimes. no prisons. no lawyers. all judges would be community elders. unpaid, volunteers. few would welcome such an arrangement, as it removes the corruption and profits.

as to the protesters. i have mixed feelings. protest, and resistance to tyranny is an american birth right, we have come to a time that writing your so called representatives is a joke. voting the scum out is a cruel joke. waiving signs and blocking streets would only work if you could shut down most of the major cities. many of these people are getting their lumps. the system will keep the pressure up. sadly the only way to get political change, is bloodshed.

[Spartacus 1,619]

Not all laws are "legal".

 

When laws are built upon subversion of the Constitution and rule of law, and outright theft of power, they are invalid.

To bad you'd still go to jail for violating them. When most people agree with them then you are really screwed for not believing them.

 

Why would I want to go to jail?

I haven't done anything wrong, I have no intention of ever going to jail.

 

Choose your battles wisely.

[bigj480 203]

You ranted a little OP and made some irrelevant points. Now one should be exempt from any law and many laws should not exist, that's about it. The system attacks the weak because they are easy targets and it keeps us divided. Illegal immigrants are human and not YOUR real enemies. Your real enemies are those in power that employ them and ensure that government programs are available to them.

 

There is no easy answer IMHO. I live in a border state,I have seen the good and the bad. After all I've seen I still know one thing. If I was in their positions, I might do the same thing. That's just the truth, and many of you would too. Now, does that mean that we should accept a porous border? No. The truth is that if the real constituents wanted illegal immigration stopped it would be done. The illegal immigrants work for cheap and do a good job of driving down wages, helping those really in power. We do need immigration reform, we need a secure border, we need to punish those that hand out jobs to illegals.......it will never happen because both parties are in on it. Also, anyone who thinks that there will not be a path to citizenship for those already here is kidding themselves. People have been living here for long enough to have grandchildren, it will not be politically feasible to deport them and doing so still leaves the "anchor babies" even if they are adults.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bigj480

[ItsAllCreated 59]

Its all so complicated. No single point will be able to explain what is happening.

We really have to be able to see as much of the picture as possible (on all levels) before we can begin to truly see whats taking place.

 

As far as our society goes... I think It all comes down to basic fairness in co-operation with one another.

Breakdown of values, responsibility, & agreements towards one another cause the logic to get phucked up ...and so basic logic begins to no longer holds true for all individuals.

 

One can observe individual points of our legal/justice system & its very easy to see that 1+1 does not equal 3.

But when you start to add the phucked up logic that Government uses to calculate their metholds & tactics (because they want to be able to say 1+1=3 if it benefits them), then you have to realize that everything is going to be phucked up from that point on outward (like a ripple effect). They set the precedent & eventually its going to travel out to effect everything and everyone

 

By this day and age so much fuzzy logic has been used in our past & present (at so many different levels) it can't co exist with basic/fundamental logic anymore (not without causing a conflict of some sorts, at some level). Its like a computer program that has errors. Sooner or later theres going to be so many programing conflicts that its just gonna crash the program (Hell...thats exactly what a virus does).

 

Without some real understanding of our problem, and a true decision to turn it around.... Im afraid that at some point nealry everyone who is caught up in the BS of it all could be wrong.

People breaking the law by protesting their unfair treatment will be wrong (because they're braking the law), and The Law will be wrong for forcing People to live with unfair treatment (because they're passing unfair laws).

 

You gotta remember the magnitue of the power the GOV has; being able to "create" Law of "their" choosing. They can create criminals by passing legislation that could turn you into a criminal overnight.

Example: 1930 Great Depression. The GOV needs your gold. You Either give it to them, or your criminal life will be taken from you by jail sentence.

*You can either say... oh thats fair because its "law". "its law people deserve punishment" for not handing over their possessions to the GOV

*Or you can say... "Phuck that", just because you make a law dosent make it right.

 

These days you got people in the streets saying "Phuck that", and you got people saying "its law people deserve punishment".

Meanwhile the GOV even decides to make it a Law to where all the sudden you have to have a permit to protest, or you have to be in a free speech zone???

...Mr Law Man comes along and says... you got no permision to complain about your unfair treatment ...its the law that we punish you even more because your not complying with your unfair treatment

 

...........................SH!T................... now im ranting.

OK Im gonna stop now. But damn its get so damn conflicting and confusing. How the hell are good people supposed to make sense of such a messed up situation? ....man its frustrating!

 

But hey bottom line..... If the matter is to truly be resolved, we've got to get at the root of the problem, and we've got to do it now.

{Metephoricly speaking} We can't waste time knocking off poison fruits, or cutting down limbs, or even chopping at the trunk ...we gotta go deeper than the average eye can see from the surface.

Dig underground to expose the roots of the problem, and thats where we'll see whats been taking hold beneath us, and growing up around us.

 

 

 

 

p.s.

This isnt targeted at anyone specifically.

Its just general food for thought.

 

Best Regards

Edited October 25, 2011 by ItsAllCreated

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

You ranted a little OP and made some irrelevant points. Now one should be exempt from any law and many laws should not exist, that's about it. The system attacks the weak because they are easy targets and it keeps us divided. Illegal immigrants are human and not YOUR real enemies. Your real enemies are those in power that employ them and ensure that government programs are available to them.

 

There is no easy answer IMHO. I live in a border state,I have seen the good and the bad. After all I've seen I still know one thing. If I was in their positions, I might do the same thing. That's just the truth, and many of you would too. Now, does that mean that we should accept a porous border? No. The truth is that if the real constituents wanted illegal immigration stopped it would be done. The illegal immigrants work for cheap and do a good job of driving down wages, helping those really in power. We do need immigration reform, we need a secure border, we need to punish those that hand out jobs to illegals.......it will never happen because both parties are in on it. Also, anyone who thinks that there will not be a path to citizenship for those already here is kidding themselves. People have been living here for long enough to have grandchildren, it will not be politically feasible to deport them and doing so still leaves the "anchor babies" even if they are adults.

 

I concur that ultimately the politicians are responsible for illegal immigrants being as prevalent as they are.

 

However if you don't respect the laws enough to abide by them and do the right thing, what do you teach the next generation about laws? Is this one of the big reasons why gangs, drugs, and violence are so prevalent in the U.S. or is it because me, the taxpayer, has oppressed these people with my racism?

 

Have you been to a hospital with an actual life threatening emergency and had to wait for people without insurance that have minor issues to go ahead of you while you and your insurance end up paying tens of thousands of dollars for your treatment?

 

Have you been in line to buy lunch at the grocery store behind a family that has over $350 in groceries and they pay less than you with your $4 sandwich with their tax funded Food Card?

 

Have you been in the bank and seen a family with three checks from the U.S. Department of Treasury but no identification to prove that they are the person those checks are addressed to?

 

Do you pay your property taxes for a SINGLE FAMILY HOME to support schools even though you don't have children (because even working two jobs each my wife and I can't afford them) when the houses down the street have on average 2-3 families in each house with 5+ school age children in each?

 

Have you gone to vote and show them your ID, and they tell you that they can't look at it because you don't need an ID or any other proof of who you are to vote?

 

Witnessing all of this and a lot more is why I am jaded. Illegal immigration is perpetuated by the cash coming in through the taxpayer funded social programs and the drug trade and the illegals don't want to assimilate into our society, but rather make our society assimilate to them. This is slowly making our first world nation into a borderless third world land mass.

Edited October 25, 2011 by BuffetDestroyer

[thebuns1 4,323]

i feel ya BD, i watched it happen as well.

 

what we see and live everyday is the result of our government neglecting the constituion, the people, and those who have sacrificed their lives for our flag..and its only going to get worse. .

 

sadly, those here illeagally are giving those who are here legally or trying, a bad rep.

 

but just like the criminals, they have nothing to fear. the system is redesigning itself to accomodate their ass, and they know it. and the government is shitting on Americans in the process. theres very few solutions.

 

if it were up to me, id send all the illeagals home in a pine box.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Captain Hero

[pbwe 45]

I say get a bankster into a pine box and get a billion to one benefit for the effort.

[nlacy 692]

When is it OK to break the law? When the law is unjust. The catch is who decides what is just and what is unjust.

[bigj480 203]

I concur that ultimately the politicians are responsible for illegal immigrants being as prevalent as they are.

 

However if you don't respect the laws enough to abide by them and do the right thing, what do you teach the next generation about laws? Is this one of the big reasons why gangs, drugs, and violence are so prevalent in the U.S. or is it because me, the taxpayer, has oppressed these people with my racism?

 

We all break some laws when it is practical. If the lives of my family depended on me sneaking into Mexico I would do it without hesitation. Does that show a lack of respect for Mexican laws? Perhaps, but I think it's more a matter of showing that one has their priorities straight. My family comes before ANYTHING, period. No one chooses to be in that position but people do what they have to. Gangs, drugs and violence are much deeper problem and connected to the immigration topic to varying degrees. I don't think it's beneficial to argue those points when discussing immigration. Again, though, the problem is government. If we ended the failed war on drugs then gangs would not be so powerful. If we had a honest government we would know who is selling us out to immigrant employers and big business. We could enforce E-verify, at least on tax payer funded projects.

 

Have you been to a hospital with an actual life threatening emergency and had to wait for people without insurance that have minor issues to go ahead of you while you and your insurance end up paying tens of thousands of dollars for your treatment?

 

Have you been in line to buy lunch at the grocery store behind a family that has over $350 in groceries and they pay less than you with your $4 sandwich with their tax funded Food Card?

 

Have you been in the bank and seen a family with three checks from the U.S. Department of Treasury but no identification to prove that they are the person those checks are addressed to?

 

Do you pay your property taxes for a SINGLE FAMILY HOME to support schools even though you don't have children (because even working two jobs each my wife and I can't afford them) when the houses down the street have on average 2-3 families in each house with 5+ school age children in each?

 

Have you gone to vote and show them your ID, and they tell you that they can't look at it because you don't need an ID or any other proof of who you are to vote?

 

Witnessing all of this and a lot more is why I am jaded. Illegal immigration is perpetuated by the cash coming in through the taxpayer funded social programs and the drug trade and the illegals don't want to assimilate into our society, but rather make our society assimilate to them. This is slowly making our first world nation into a borderless third world land mass.

 

All of these arguments are against tax payer funded forced "charity" and are irrelevant to the immigration discussion. You should be against these things not matter who is reaping the benefits. Should illegal immigrants get this tax payer forced help? No, no one should. So, lets end robin hood programs, lets attack the problem at it's root. The enemy is big government. Everyone should only get that which they earn, immigrants are no exception. We could start with cutting these programs for immigrants, but we need to cut them for everyone. Illegal immigration is a symptom of a more fundamental problem. Mexico does too little for it's people and the US attempts to do too much.

 

When is it OK to break the law? When the law is unjust. The catch is who decides what is just and what is unjust.

 

+1

[kodaline 178]

Be careful quoting Heinlein. Most people just take his individualist, anti authoritarian views,

and forget the awesome contempt he has for the stupid, the lazy, and the irresponsible.

 

For instance, the quote about the polite society from Beyond This Horizon is always stopped

at the first sentence. Nobody ever includes the rest of the paragraph, which I would if I were home

and had my copy at hand. My memory does not furnish me the whole thing, but the paragraph ends

with lamenting that modern technology has rendered life too safe and people need ways to kill each other off.

 

Quoting the whole thing changes the meaning from the platitude spouted by gun nuts that we'd all be more polite

to 'being armed is important because we can KILL RUDE ASSHOLES."

[longhorn 81]

When is it OK to break the law? When the law is unjust. The catch is who decides what is just and what is unjust.

 

YEP!!!

[G O B 3,516]

My Father in law used to say "The government makes crooks out of honest people."

 

There are so many laws here in the Peoples repugnantcy of Maryland, that it is completely impossible to BE a law abiding person. The sheer VOLUME of laws makes it impossible to know what they encompass, and MANY are contradictory. Add the mentality of prosecutors and Police that "the law is what I say it is", and political hacks that pass for Judges, there is NO ONE in this State that is full compliance with the "LAW", as written, or as enforced, piss an influential person off and go to jail. This is how the powers that be LIKE it!

 

Be nice little peasants, give us all your money ,take it in the ass and SHUT UP - OR we WILL get you!

[thebuns1 4,323]

My Father in law used to say "The government makes crooks out of honest people."

 

There are so many laws here in the Peoples repugnantcy of Maryland, that it is completely impossible to BE a law abiding person. The sheer VOLUME of laws makes it impossible to know what they encompass, and MANY are contradictory. Add the mentality of prosecutors and Police that "the law is what I say it is", and political hacks that pass for Judges, there is NO ONE in this State that is full compliance with the "LAW", as written, or as enforced, piss an influential person off and go to jail. This is how the powers that be LIKE it!

 

Be nice little peasants, give us all your money ,take it in the ass and SHUT UP - OR we WILL get you!

 

 

sadly, theres a lot of this goin around.

[cyp1230 8]

This is what happens when people that should not even be allowed to reproduce are casting ballots. This is what happens when the state turns a blind eye to illegals casting ballots. This is what happens when RULE OF LAW is not adhered to. Most ignorant people will tell you that America is a democracy- and they are WRONG. These are usually the liberal left idiots that are preaching this. They refuse to acknowlege that we are, in fact, a REPUBLIC. We have come to this point due to the activist judges and "progressive" politicians. These are the kind of people that only think of themselves and NEVER consider the idea that just because you CAN do something, doesn't always mean that you SHOULD do it. When an activist judge makes a ridiculous ruling, they are only thinking of themselves and how THEY feel about the situation- NOT what the law says. They do not consider the second and third order effects of their actions (please! show me a lefty that does!). I feel your pain and it saddens me to know that after over 20 years of service to this great nation, my retirement certificate was signed by the greatest failure in American history. As someone said early on in the thread, it starts at the top.