texmarine0331 0 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Can someone give me some direction? Bought a new converted Saiga 12 from my dealer. I trust him and I trust that he did a good conversion but I wouldn't know if something was wrong as this is my first Saiga. I took it out back and loaded up some Remington Express Magnum 00 and it fired flawlessly. Took it to work and loaded up some Federal Vitalshok and FTE every round. I tried changing the gas setting to two but still the same problem. I've tried searching and reading forums and online posts but I can't seem to figure out what is wrong here. Am I going to have to fire Magnum rounds everytime I want to shoot this gun? Can someone tell me where I can look to figure out how to fix this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) What did he charge for the work? Was it just a conversion or was it a conversion and reliability service? If it was just a conversion and it is no longer in "sporter" configuartion, then he did the conversion and you got what you paid for. I'm not saying that he couldn't have goofed something up, but it sounds like you just got a conversion with no reliability service. Does it look like anything has been done to the hammer, trigger, feedramp, etc? (are they shiny.... does it look like someone has been filing, polishing, or grinding on them) Do you know this dealer well? Sounds like you got put to bed. What did you pay for the weapon? Edited December 14, 2011 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 To answer the question of where to look for info; Read the stickies, and search the word 'failure', 'eject', and 'feed'. Or do a google search for 'saiga 12 FTF FTE'. Should find a lot of info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
texmarine0331 0 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 What did he charge for the work? Was it just a conversion or was it a conversion and reliability service? If it was just a conversion and it is no longer in "sporter" configuartion, then he did the conversion and you got what you paid for. I'm not saying that he couldn't have goofed something up, but it sounds like you just got a conversion with no reliability service. Does it look like anything has been done to the hammer, trigger, feedramp, etc? (are they shiny.... does it look like someone has been filing, polishing, or grinding on them) Do you know this dealer well? Sounds like you got put to bed. What did you pay for the weapon? I've known this dealer for years and I've bought many weapons from him but I've never had a problem with any gun I've bought from him. This is however the first gun that wasn't right out of the box. He bought the saiga NIB and did the conversion, not tuned, just converted. Nothing looks like it has been polished, filed, cleaned up. To answer the question of where to look for info; Read the stickies, and search the word 'failure', 'eject', and 'feed'. Or do a google search for 'saiga 12 FTF FTE'. Should find a lot of info. Thank you. I found some threads with that. Before I go and buy anything I'll try a couple hundred rounds of high brass and see how it runs then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Instead of wasting a bunch of money and time shooting "high brass", why not just hand cycle it for about an hour violently? It will do about the same thing.... very little. If achieving reliability was as easy as shooting some "high brass", there would be no market for reliability service or reprofiling/polishing. The weapon at least needs the hammer and carrier reprofiled properly. Some even need increased port surface to run really light loads like #8 shot. Research throroughly before you start and go slow when you remove metal. Don't get carried away with the Dremel. Use hobby files and fine sandpaper to do the fine tuning. Polishing alone does not do much. The reprofile is the most important thing. Also, these are "gas operated" weapons and sometimes the amount of "gas" entering the system needs to be increased to make them "operate" well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
texmarine0331 0 Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Instead of wasting a bunch of money and time shooting "high brass", why not just hand cycle it for about an hour violently? It will do about the same thing.... very little. If achieving reliability was as easy as shooting some "high brass", there would be no market for reliability service or reprofiling/polishing. The weapon at least needs the hammer and carrier reprofiled properly. Some even need increased port surface to run really light loads like #8 shot. Research throroughly before you start and go slow when you remove metal. Don't get carried away with the Dremel. Use hobby files and fine sandpaper to do the fine tuning. Polishing alone does not do much. The reprofile is the most important thing. Also, these are "gas operated" weapons and sometimes the amount of "gas" entering the system needs to be increased to make them "operate" well. So where do I take/send this to have it looked at and to ensure that it is working efficiently or needs work? Edited December 15, 2011 by texmarine0331 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) tex, I assume that you are in Texas. Correct? A word of advice, go in your profile and update your location info (city, state, area that locals know by a nickname, etc). There may be someone who is experienced nearby and you guys could give the thing a good test and eval. Also, If you can take some decent pics of the the bottom of the bolt carrier and the hammer, we can further assist. Most of us are always willing to help/advise/chime-in, but we have to know what the situation is. I can almost guarantee that it will, at the absolute least, need friction reduction to run light loads. Take the gas plug out and see if you can get a picture of the ports, you may end up needing porting, but lets focus on reducing friction first. Where you send it is up to you. There are many business members here that know what they are doing and we need to know what it needs first as that may influence our recommendation, if any. ETA: If it isn't running like this.... it isn't running efficiently. Edited December 15, 2011 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
admbleg 35 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Dumb question here.... Did you clean the gas block after firing the previous rounds? Did you inspect the gas ports and clean them out? As evl said it needs to be broken in, or polish the hammer, bolt and debur the bolt where the spring guides into the back of the bolt Edited December 15, 2011 by RLTW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fatrob1219 0 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Tex, I've had all the "typical" issues with my saiga both before and after conversion, but I did all the work myself and it now functions quite reliably with most ammo. I'm located in the Dallas area, I'd be happy to help you out with your gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Dumb question here.... Did you clean the gas block after firing the previous rounds? Did you inspect the gas ports and clean them out? As evl said it needs to be broken in, or polish the hammer, bolt and debur the bolt where the spring guides into the back of the bolt You may have misundertood what I was saying. It would take thousands of rounds of "high brass" to see any real benefit from it. I do not advocate "break in". There is no substitute for gunsmithing when it comes to firing "low brass" rounds in these weapons. Polishing alone is not enough. All of mine get reprofiling and polishing in many different areas and some increase in port surface area (as needed). Really, we need some pics so we can see the hammer, hammer spring, trigger, diconnector, bolt, bolt carrier, receiver rails, ejector block, extractor, and ports, if possible. If all looks normal, we can rule out the obvious and get to the meat of a solution. Tex, I've had all the "typical" issues with my saiga both before and after conversion, but I did all the work myself and it now functions quite reliably with most ammo. I'm located in the Dallas area, I'd be happy to help you out with your gun. +1 ..... but no clue where in TX the OP is or if he is even in TX (ETA: I stand corrected. OP is in Austin, TX. Great job). Thank you for your offering of effort, knowledge, and time to the OP. Maybe you'll get a look at the thing in person and can save the day. See sig line.... ETA 2: Just looked at the TX map. Is there a range in Waco? I know there was an ATF shooting range there, but the place burned down. Edited December 15, 2011 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redfish28 50 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Instead of wasting a bunch of money and time shooting "high brass", why not just hand cycle it for about an hour violently? It will do about the same thing.... very little. If achieving reliability was as easy as shooting some "high brass", there would be no market for reliability service or reprofiling/polishing. The weapon at least needs the hammer and carrier reprofiled properly. Some even need increased port surface to run really light loads like #8 shot. Research throroughly before you start and go slow when you remove metal. Don't get carried away with the Dremel. Use hobby files and fine sandpaper to do the fine tuning. Polishing alone does not do much. The reprofile is the most important thing. Also, these are "gas operated" weapons and sometimes the amount of "gas" entering the system needs to be increased to make them "operate" well. +100 This is crucial to a proper functioning S12. Knowing the proper hammer/carrier profile is key. Just look at Evl's videos. His S-12's plain run. If you choose to attempt this modification be careful and constantly check to make sure you haven't removed too much material. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Here is an easy reprofile that will rest flat against the tail of the bolt. It is not as aggressive as some, but works well when done exactly as shown. It is the same as the hammer in the "Flawless" S12. I have another "recipe", but it is not something that I would want others trying to duplicate due to the potential to get carried away and remove too much in the wrong spot, thus leading to doubles. As redfish stated, please check often. I usually leave the trigger in the weapon and reinstall the hammer and test multiple times during the procedure. The time we spend on fitting/checking/refitting is nothing compared to 10 years Fed time. Something to consider.... The first and second pics are of a hammer that was fresh off of the grinding wheel. It is to illustrate where to grind and where not to. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groovy Mike 36 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 I have all the same questions. Rather than fight through the frustration of trying eighteen "fixes" that might work, I want a good gunsmith to send my Saiga 12 to and get it back running flawlessly. As an alternateive, my gun could become a parts gun and I could buy a saiga that runs like it should. Anybody have recommendations for either solution? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Tromix, if you can get on their work list. Pauley's Steeling does incredible work on the bolt, carrier, and hammer, but you may need more than that to get your saiga running like a violated primate. Tac47 does gunsmithing work, too. Ah, heck with it. There's this whole section on the front page of the forum labeled 'Vendors'. Pick just about any one of them, your precious Saiga will be in good hands (not all vendors do gunsmithing). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dafusco 0 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I had a very similar problem, constant FTE, nice little stovepipes.... I took my gun apart and polished everywhere I saw wear on the metal and made it all smooth...still had issues. Then I purchased the "low brass kit" from Carolina Shooters Supply (affiliated dealer & Friend to Saiga Forums) and took it to action shotgun last night......flawless. I put about 80 shells through it, and I tried winchesters, federals, and even remington gun club shells. I tossed each spent shell about 8 feet away. So far, that $45 was the best money I spent on my Saiga thus far. Now I was using gas setting 5, which I will start to bring down now to find where the best setting is for the brass I'll normally be shooting, which is probably the Federals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robfromga 39 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Kinda having the same issues after my conversion. Have you tried different magazines? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dafusco 0 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I hear the SGM's are the way to go, I have had no issues with them and they come recommended by all of the Saiga shooters at my club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
texmarine0331 0 Posted December 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Ok, took some pictures to see what I am working with. Again any "constructive" advice is welcome. Thanks Best I can see there are three (3) gas ports. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robfromga 39 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Try it without the rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Wow! It's been quite a while since I've seen a bolt with sharp defined edges on it like that! C&S Metal Works, Pauly, Cobra, or most any of the other vendors on this site could really help you out by polishing and profiling your bolt, bolt carrier, and hammer. It wouldn't hurt to polish the rails in the receiver either... I polished everything myself until my bolt and carrier closely resembled that of the bolt and carrier in the "How do I polish my bolt?" thread, then I polished the rails in my receiver. I only polished my hammer, I did NOT re-profile it, I'm not saying that yours shouldn't be I just didn't re-profile mine. That plus an MD booster puck and a good gas plug will have you shooting winchester bulk from the hip in no time! Edited December 16, 2011 by Caged Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bcrider 68 Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Try it without the rail. Agreed. Look at the 7th picture. The gap between where the right side is clamped down vs. The left side. The rail is fucking with your gas tube. Even if that's not the ultimate problem, it's not helping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snafu360 21 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 You have some work my friend...That s12 is FRESH On the right track however.. I had my carrier/bolt done by paulie,polished the rails deburred everything,opened the gas port holes up,put a lighter main spring in,and put a king tappet with a tac 47 auto plug in. Flawless shooting bulk pack from day one(minus a few mag issues) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fitty% 808 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I had Pauly work on my bolt for me! Sorry if it blinds you ..lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 2 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Not sure if im looking at it correctly but i only see 2ish holes in the gas port. Make sure you actually have holes there too with a dental pick or something similar. I know its hard to get a decent picture of them. Also welcome aboard, this is a excelent sight for info on just about everything you need to know or come across with your S12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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