Barrel temperature?

[Rebel 0]

Does anyone know how hot the barrel can get under rapid semi-auto fire?Can't find anything on google.I JB welded a slip on muzzle brake from Joeken firearms.It's very solid,but I'm worried about the temperature while unloading a 30rnd magazine. JB is supposed to be good up to 600 degrees. I can't imagine the barrel coming close to that,but I'm not sure.Any idea???

[JWysenski762 0]

well, i have no idea bout the exact temperature of the barel, but a simple test to see if its geting above 212 would be to put a drop of water on it. if it boils, then its over 212. maybe if your still curious, you could use a meet thermometer, although you may get some funny looks at the range.

 

my guess is that the force from the muzzle blast (which is notorious for knocking off non threaded muzzle atachments) is your biggest enemy, although the heat may not help.

Edited August 17, 2005 by JWysenski762

[jon elia 0]

i have a fluke thermometer you just lay or affix the wire to something and instant tells you ho hot it is....something like that might help you out

[G O B 3,516]

An IR temperature sensor would be perfect- no contact, just shine laser on point that you want to measure and get instant digital readout. That said I don't think you would normally get anywhere nead 600 degrees. It could be done, but you would smoke the finish and melt the handguard befor then. 600 degrees is in the melting range of solder alloys.

 

G O B

[Rebel 0]

Thanks guys.I guess I'll just see how the JB holds up at the range.I'm still curious just how hot the barrel gets after rapid firing of 30 rnds.The water test was a good idea.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I can only say that the JB weld holding my HG retainers to the gas tube and block has held fast through many rounds fired in my AKS-12. I have not rapid fired 30 rounds straight but I have shot several 5 and 8 round mags close together without any ill effects. I believe the gas block gets a lot hotter than the muzzle a lot faster.

Like GOB said you would smoke the handguards before you melt the JB on your muzzle.

[scoutjoe 276]

i do wonder how hot it gets...and i know rapid fire itsn't helpful to the barrel but does anybody know how much the X39 can take? i mean i know its an AK variant and all but when my buddies and i get together i can tell you that the favorite mag for mine is the romainain drum...

[IndyArms 10,186]

All I can say is it will get *HOT*!!!

 

Mind you, this is 7.62X54R... but I have bumpfired two 10 round mags thru my PSL... that got the barrel SO HOT it was causing the handguards to start to smoke... I will NEVER do THAT again!!!

 

I was in shock... thinking I may have fucked up my rifling, or something else... its been fine, but it kinda freaked me out at the time...

 

 

 

[scoutjoe 276]

I've had my M44 that hot (54r also) but its a 60 dollar gun, once it cooled down and i cleaned it up it was fine but it takes it longer to heat up than the X39 so maybe its made alot heavier than its supposed to be?

 

either way they get hot, we let them cool and just keep shooting and whatever poor peice of target is downrange

 

[k_dawg 0]

the "hottest" gun I've seen was a USGI M-14, after multiple magazines shot very fast. You could SEE a faint glow of hte barrel, and the heat rising from it was tremendous..

[pistonring8 1]

Cobra76Two was nice enough to send me the "Torture Test" AK video. If you really want to know how hot a 7.62 barrel can get.....watch the vid. They were on the 5th or 6th drum in auto fire. It was orange.....heat detonations.......and STILL firing!

 

About the heat after bumping off 30 rounds, I wouldent worry too much. I melted my wire on my laser sight after 2- 30 rounders, thats about it. (and that was against the barrel) Your handguards will get a little warm and maybe mushy but the Saiga can handle it.

 

The JB Weld® might be a problem in itself though. I tried a loose press fit over permanant Locktite® the first time on my muzzle break and it blew right off. I ended up useing two little tack welds instead and have had no other probs.

 

The muzzle break takes alot of blast force, and seems to need a good solid hold or it becomes a projectile! Please be careful.

 

I hope this helps.

[Rebel 0]

Alright.I'm now so paranoid about the brake coming off I'm going to have my brother weld the darn thing on.After I grind all the JB off!

[pistonring8 1]

You will sleep better.

 

And shoot safer!

[vjor 2]

[pistonring8 1]

I agree that a TIG makes a nice neat, clean weld. But anyone with even a few years of good MIG experience will tell you that the MIG is anything but clumsy and barbaric as I have seen described by several helpful fellow bloggers. (perhaps they are thinking of ARC or stick welders?)

 

First of all, Im not a stranger to either contraption. I could go on and on about how wonderful and wise and experienced I am. But then I would just be adding to the already prevailant noise.

 

Here are the facts. Most job shops do NOT feel comfortable welding your rifle. You may get lucky with the old "a friend of a friend" or pushing a lot of cash at someone who thinks its cool. But most likely you will have no luck getting a stanger to weld an "assult" rifle for you. You have lots of other metal projects around the house, so your next step is to buy a welder.

 

A TIG welder requires a bottle of shielding gas, at least one piece of tungsten, filler rod, and probably a 220v power supply. Not to mention all of the usual welding gear like gloves, optics, ground cable, feed petal, wire brush, slag hammer etc.

 

Just the very basic set up for an economy model TIG (thats worth a shit) starts at around $2,000. Every once and awhile you can find a used one at an auction for less than $1,000 like I did. Its an A.O. Smith.

 

On the other hand you can find an economy model MIG (wire feed welder) at any hardware or auto parts store for about $200 (thats worth a shit) They usually come with everything you need to get started and commonly run on a household 120v current.

 

Important features to look for are - adjusable feed and adjustable heat settings. These two options on a flux core wire feed welder are all you need to make nice strong professional welds with just a little practice. Your welder will probably come with a video or instruction booklet covering basic techniques.

 

A MIG welder useing a bottle of shielding gas (Argon or mix)or a 220v is also an option giving you more available range for welding heavier steel and making smoother welds, but is not necassary for this application and cost considerably more money.

 

Now if you want to make a perfect looking weld without grinding or sanding, Tig is the way to go. I agree that the TIG makes a stronger, neater and more professional looking weld. But on thin sheet metal like you would find on the AK reciever and triggerguard, its just not mandatory. Even for welding on the gas block or barrel sleeve, you dont need to bite in more than a 16th to do the job. And to be honest, you dont want to see the welds when your done anyway, so why does it matter? Your going to smooth it out no matter what your laying a bead with.

 

Im not sure exactly where some guys get the idea that a MIG starts flailing out wire at the touch of a button. I guess if you are a novice or you bought the $99.00 chepo welder at Walmart you could get that impression. But its just not true for most MIG welders. You should be able to control the feed on your welder down to a crawl. By welding with your feed very close to the metal you can lay a tight, concentrated bead that is very much like a TIG without the expensive equipment to do it. If your not useing shielding gas, pick up a bottle of anti-spatter spray and a good wire brush.

 

I hope this helps anyone who is considering some welding applications. Try not to get discouraged by those people who think you need a degree to do anything yourself. All the most expensive fancy equipment in the world just cant replace good old skill and common sense. And if your poor like me, you could always sell your welder once you dont want or need it anymore. I promise you will find plenty of interested buyers.

 

Good luck, Safe shooting!

Edited August 23, 2005 by pistonring8

[G O B 3,516]

If any of you are welding up holes in sheetmetal, or filling a gap that is too wide--- clamp an old carbon brush from a generator behind the hole or void. The welder will arc to it, but the weld will not stick. A large copper block also works, but the carbon doesn't act like a heat sink, so you can use less heat.

 

G O B

[ShKAS 0]

I brought along an IR thermometer to a machine gun shoot this weekend. A 75-round drum in full auto brought an AK to 320 degrees in the gas chamber/forward end of handguard area, and about 250 degrees near the muzzle.

 

A 200-round burst on an already-warm .308 Browning 1919 took the barrel to 650 degrees.

[pistonring8 1]

WoW! Thanks for that info.

 

Thermometers are rediculously expensive, I love to play with them whenever I get a chance. Fun isnt it?

 

It sounds to me like the AK (under reasonable conditions) will be able to hold any kind of paint, coating or adhesives designed to perform in a normal "high temperature" range. Like an automotive grade "high heat" paint that tops out @ 500 degrees. (grill and oven paint are a little higher)

 

That Browning on the other hand, would need a little something extra.

 

This has been a helpful thread, thanks. Im planning on airbrushing a very detailed camo job on my Saiga soon, and I often have wondered if a clearcoat made for auto engines would hold up to the heat. The most I have ever bumped out at one time was 2 x 30 rounders. And I dont do that very much.

 

So I guess I will be able to do a nice camo job and cover it with a flat engine clearcoat for protection. Cool. Maybe I will take step by step pics and post a "how to" on it.

[matsaleh 0]

This horse has probably been beaten to death already, but I'll just add that I JB welded the JoeKen muzzle brake onto my 20" Saiga barrel and have experienced no problems so far. I've put a couple hundred rounds through it since then, and careful inspection afterwards indicates no loosening or cracking of the joint. I did not shoot rapid fire, however, because I was also sighting in my POSP scope at the time.

 

FWIW, here's how I did it:

 

1) The ID of the brake was a little larger than the OD of the barrel, so I needed something to build up the small gap between the barrel and brake. I did not want to use the JB for that, because I could not guarantee a tight, straight fit with it. So, I made a narrow (appx 1cm) strip of aluminum foil about 6" long.

2) I wrapped the foil tightly around the end of the barrel, leaving a 2mm gap uncovered between the tip of the muzzel and the foil.

3) I tested the fit by gently working the brake over the foil, and gradually removed small bits of foil until the brake would slide over it firmly but without force or wrinkling the edge of the foil.

4) I then carefully unwrapped the foil and applied an even layer of JB weld completely around the barrel in the area where the foil was.

5) I again wrapped the foil one turn around the barrel, and then applied a thin layer of JB on top of the foil so that subsequent turns would cement one layer of foil to the next. I finished off with a thin layer of JB on the outside of the top foil layer. This produces a laminate of JB and foil, and from what I understand, laminate structures are usually stronger than solid structures of either of their component materials.

6) After replacing the foil, I applied a coating of JB in the 2mm gap betwen the foil and the end of the muzzle. I built this up to be even with the thickness of the foil wrap.

7) I built up a similar coating of JB on the other side of the foil, between the foil and the sight block. Now I had a "sandwich" of JB+foil laminate+JB on which to mount the brake.

8) Finally, I carefully replaced the brake onto the muzzle, making sure not to tear the foil or excessivly smear the JB. The JB added thickness, so I actually had to remove a length of foil to get the same fit that I did before I added the JB. In doing so, I made sure the exposed foil still had a solid coating of JB to bond it to the inside of the brake.

9) After I got the brake on, I gently rotated it in the direction of the foil wrap until the exhaust ports were correctly aligned.

10) Then I applied a bead of JB around the joint between the brake and the barrel to add additional strength and seal it.

11) Last, I cleaned up any excess JB to neaten the appearance. I also inspected the bore and the joint inside the brake to ensure I had not obstructed the barrel with excess JB.

 

So far, so good. If I get a failure at some point, I'll try to remember to post to this group and hang my head appropriately.

 

The reason I think this will be fine, is because a guy I know once used JB to repair a cracked cylinder in a tractor engine. He filled the crack with JB, smoothed out the cylinder and replaced the rings, and the engine ran for another 8 years!

 

Cheers.

[uzitiger 193]

When themuzzle brake shoots off just glue it back on again.

 

I have a threaded adapter for my muzzle brake which shot off the rifle at the range and I had to retrieve it 15 yards downrange. After that I used loctite on the set screw threads and tightened them down and a drop of super glue to hold the adapter. It hasn't shot off after that and I fired a few hundred rounds.

 

The barrel temperature gets too hot to touch and can burn your hand if you're not careful. I don't know what the temperatureis but it's painful to touch. My friend uses a leather glove to shoot his Russian AK because of the small hand guard. The Saiga handguard protects the hands better because of its larger size.

Edited November 26, 2005 by uzitiger

[icarus 3]

Unless you're running full auto I wouldn't worry about overheating the brl. When I went to MGLC (machinegun leadership course) we shot over 200,000 rounds through our M240 in three days. Out of the 24 guns in the battallion only one was still working. Our 240 had the brl fused to the receiver. The copper jacket on the rounds was melting you could see bits of copper on the flash supressor and at the night fire the brl was glowing.

Edited December 15, 2005 by icarus