defcon 21 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 this was my 2nd time to the range my BHO got stuck inside the receiver after putting the magazine in. BCG is now stuck. ive already made the modifications to the BHO and bent spring but im really fed up with this. do we really need the BHO to fire the S12? how would you handle the S12, loading a magazine and keeping the charging handle back? im still new but you cant load a magazine with a closed bolt right? the charging handle has to be pulled back, load the magazine and then let go of the charging handle? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 If you have your bolt re-profiled, you can load a mag on a closed bolt. Or you could try downloading the mag a shell or two, or just hold the bolt open when you insert the mag and ditch the BHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene 5.6 1 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Ditch the BHO and cut a notch into your safety to use as a BHO,. That's what I did. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
defcon 21 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) If you have your bolt re-profiled, you can load a mag on a closed bolt. Or you could try downloading the mag a shell or two, or just hold the bolt open when you insert the mag and ditch the BHO. id rather just ditch the BHO. i was just curious if anyone that ditched their BHO had a better experience. it would definitely be one less part to worry about failing on me. i cant trust that stupid BHO spring Ditch the BHO and cut a notch into your safety to use as a BHO,. That's what I did. i saw a post like that before. ill look up that post and cut it tonight. thanks man! btw why did you ditch the BHO and notch your safety? did you have the same issue and just got fed up with it? im using #4 shell for indoors. is this low brass? also i have my setting at 1 with my MD Vplug. is this the right setup? Edited February 25, 2012 by defcon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gene 5.6 1 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 I did the conversion and found the position of the BHO to be very uncomfortable. I have big fingers.. so running my finger lower on the trigger was a no-no for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Seriously, one word: Krebs. I've been happy ever since... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 I load on a closed bolt all the time. I've done the mod, too. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/50571-how-do-i-polish-the-bolt/ There a great amount of information in the stickies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Ditch the BHO and cut a notch into your safety to use as a BHO,. That's what I did. ABSOLUTELY! I've had this one time too many and knotched mine! It is much better now, as I never have to worry with this issue again. Edited March 1, 2012 by Guns Are Great Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Couple things I'll say about the BHO problems..... I see people saying to use the short leg on the BHO spring on the BHO plate, I used the long leg with a bend on the end of it. No way it's going to fall off that way. Yes, it does make it a hair more difficult to install the spring that way, but after you've done it 10 times, it's only a five minute job. I also cut a small notch where the spring leg rests on the BHO plate.... have never had any issues with it failing even before that. One other thing.... since the hammer requires clearance on it's axis to provide room for the BHO plate, I think sometimes too much metal gets removed and that allows the hammer to slide laterally (side to side slop). That allows the BHO plate to tilt and the spring to pop off. A washer on the axis pin up against the BHO plate should fix that. You may also want to use one or more washers if you pull out the BHO plate to make up the thickness and avoid problems with the hammer binding or not hitting the firing pin squarely. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Couple things I'll say about the BHO problems..... I see people saying to use the short leg on the BHO spring on the BHO plate, I used the long leg with a bend on the end of it. No way it's going to fall off that way. Yes, it does make it a hair more difficult to install the spring that way, but after you've done it 10 times, it's only a five minute job. I also cut a small notch where the spring leg rests on the BHO plate.... have never had any issues with it failing even before that. I have the long leg of the spring over the BHO in my IZ109 and have never had it jam up. I also bend the sping inwards towards the trigger, and then down over the BHO. On my IZ132, i have the short leg of the spring over the BHO with it only bent towards the trigger (not down) and it too has never failed. Either way will work but it is easier to install the short leg over the BHO. I just picked up the Krebs selector levers and i'm not sure if i like them or not. I think i am hung up on how you still have to pull the BCG back to chamber a round. I might have to file one down some, so it can be released by just dropping the lever down, without the need to pull the BCG back. BTW, Krebs levers with the indents in the correct position for a Saiga, are still off by a 1/16", creating two swept lines on the receiver. Edited March 2, 2012 by Mullet Man 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guns Are Great 140 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I agree that the normal look of the safety looks better but utility/functional dependability is a must. Today was the first time it ever caused a jam up. However, I no longer trust it. So off it came and in the notch went via dremel and I used automotive paint marker to color in grind marks. Still only one mark on receiver and one hand operation too release the bolt. My spring was bent toward the trigger and the BHO lever was notched also. I have the tromix large bolt on charging handle and the notch fit nicely behind it no problem. Now I just have to get the mag lever pin to stay put and I'll have a truly reliable shotgun! Edited March 2, 2012 by Guns Are Great Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 What type of hammer does the weapon have? Tromix modified? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 If you have your bolt re-profiled, you can load a mag on a closed bolt. Or you could try downloading the mag a shell or two, or just hold the bolt open when you insert the mag and ditch the BHO. You can load full mags on a closed bolt without reprofiling. It just takes learning. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think sparticus's washer solution is what you need. Also Krebs pricing is a exploitive. Why pay $65 for a notch in a $12 part. Five minutes with a grinder will give you that notch. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun12 205 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I guess i am lucky but my BHO hasn't failed me yet and i did the conversion myself. I would also recommend having a tool kit packed along with you when you go to the range, i have every tool under the sun for each of my firearms in a nice tool bag ready to fix any problem i encounter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FunkedOut 91 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 you can prevent the BHO from jamming by making sure it doesn't tilt towards the trigger and rise above the rails. just take some pliers and put a slight bend on the hammer spring about 3/4" or so from the end that sits on the trigger. the bend should go outward toward the BHO lever. that'll keep the lever pressed against the receiver. if too much was taken off the hammer, a washer/spacer sounds good too. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I think sparticus's washer solution is what you need. Also Krebs pricing is a exploitive. Why pay $65 for a notch in a $12 part. Five minutes with a grinder will give you that notch. Its not only the notch. Its formed as one piece with the finger tab. No rivets or welds, its just very clean, with the curve and the way it feels when actuating it. I like it all except that the notch is curved to catch and retain the charging handle, which means two hands to chamber a round if you want/need to do it quickly, one to pull the BCG back and the other to drop the safety. Edited March 2, 2012 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roachtron 49 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Seriously, one word: Krebs. I've been happy ever since... Not to hijack the thread but what paint was used on that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think sparticus's washer solution is what you need. Also Krebs pricing is a exploitive. Why pay $65 for a notch in a $12 part. Five minutes with a grinder will give you that notch. Its not only the notch. Its formed as one piece with the finger tab. No rivets or welds, its just very clean, with the curve and the way it feels when actuating it. I like it all except that the notch is curved to catch and retain the charging handle, which means two hands to chamber a round if you want/need to do it quickly, one to pull the BCG back and the other to drop the safety. Exactly, I drop the safety with my trigger finger, locked cocked and ready to rock! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Couple things I'll say about the BHO problems..... I see people saying to use the short leg on the BHO spring on the BHO plate, I used the long leg with a bend on the end of it. No way it's going to fall off that way. Yes, it does make it a hair more difficult to install the spring that way, but after you've done it 10 times, it's only a five minute job. I also cut a small notch where the spring leg rests on the BHO plate.... have never had any issues with it failing even before that. One other thing.... since the hammer requires clearance on it's axis to provide room for the BHO plate, I think sometimes too much metal gets removed and that allows the hammer to slide laterally (side to side slop). That allows the BHO plate to tilt and the spring to pop off. A washer on the axis pin up against the BHO plate should fix that. You may also want to use one or more washers if you pull out the BHO plate to make up the thickness and avoid problems with the hammer binding or not hitting the firing pin squarely. Finally, after all of these "BHO stuck" threads and all of the times I have inquired about which hammer the weapon has.... there is someone else out there that realizes what the root issue of these failures is. I modify my own hammers and never get a stuck BHO. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Oh and Rustoleum metallic, I recommend stripping the weapon and coating it with white, once that's cured then apply the metallic in light coats. If you apply it over the factory finish, it will have a slight purple tint to it, which I really must admit fit with my build due to it's name and theme. Couple things I'll say about the BHO problems..... I see people saying to use the short leg on the BHO spring on the BHO plate, I used the long leg with a bend on the end of it. No way it's going to fall off that way. Yes, it does make it a hair more difficult to install the spring that way, but after you've done it 10 times, it's only a five minute job. I also cut a small notch where the spring leg rests on the BHO plate.... have never had any issues with it failing even before that. One other thing.... since the hammer requires clearance on it's axis to provide room for the BHO plate, I think sometimes too much metal gets removed and that allows the hammer to slide laterally (side to side slop). That allows the BHO plate to tilt and the spring to pop off. A washer on the axis pin up against the BHO plate should fix that. You may also want to use one or more washers if you pull out the BHO plate to make up the thickness and avoid problems with the hammer binding or not hitting the firing pin squarely. Finally, after all of these "BHO stuck" threads and all of the times I have inquired about which hammer the weapon has.... there is someone else out there that realizes what the root issue of these failures is. I modify my own hammers and never get a stuck BHO. My BHO failed while the weapon was in it's sporter configuration with all of the factory equipped parts. The exact failure y'all are talking about, the BHO would clear the rails inside the receiver and jam the bolt carrier up... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think sparticus's washer solution is what you need. Also Krebs pricing is a exploitive. Why pay $65 for a notch in a $12 part. Five minutes with a grinder will give you that notch. Its not only the notch. Its formed as one piece with the finger tab. No rivets or welds, its just very clean, with the curve and the way it feels when actuating it. I like it all except that the notch is curved to catch and retain the charging handle, which means two hands to chamber a round if you want/need to do it quickly, one to pull the BCG back and the other to drop the safety. Yes, the tabs are handy. Also within the range of basic skill Expert Super Gunsmith Skills. I have a couple and even made a spare . I didn't want the notch, because I have a working BHO for that, and don't need an extra dirt hole in the side of my gun, but it would be easy enough to add one. These are due for paint. If Krebs prices are reasonable, maybe I should get in on the racket. That steel does chew up drill bits fast though. If made from your OEM safety the scratch will match too. Apparently Krebs relocated the detente and it still is in the wrong arc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 GunFun, I'm all for making what i can, and give you props for the ones you made. However, there is no way too match the "neatness" of the Krebs piece. Is it a little over priced? Sure. But its a Niche market and he offers the cleanest appearing option. Much like Dinzags S12 FSB's, they're a little more expensive then the rest but they are the cleanest looking readily available FSB on the market! And its an AK, you know as well as i do, the hole to allow dirt in isnt gonna effect much. :-) If i can get the BCG to release just by dropping the Krebs safety with my trigger finger, then my BHO's will be obsolete! K.I.S.S. one less part to cause a headache. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 MM, I used a set of rounded files to get mine just perfect, focus on the very top "rail" of the safety. This is where one swipe with a file makes a big difference so test often. It is possible to get it to fall too easily so be careful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 2 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 got rid of mine all together. no hold open other than my hand. load closed mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh and Rustoleum metallic, I recommend stripping the weapon and coating it with white, once that's cured then apply the metallic in light coats. If you apply it over the factory finish, it will have a slight purple tint to it, which I really must admit fit with my build due to it's name and theme. Couple things I'll say about the BHO problems..... I see people saying to use the short leg on the BHO spring on the BHO plate, I used the long leg with a bend on the end of it. No way it's going to fall off that way. Yes, it does make it a hair more difficult to install the spring that way, but after you've done it 10 times, it's only a five minute job. I also cut a small notch where the spring leg rests on the BHO plate.... have never had any issues with it failing even before that. One other thing.... since the hammer requires clearance on it's axis to provide room for the BHO plate, I think sometimes too much metal gets removed and that allows the hammer to slide laterally (side to side slop). That allows the BHO plate to tilt and the spring to pop off. A washer on the axis pin up against the BHO plate should fix that. You may also want to use one or more washers if you pull out the BHO plate to make up the thickness and avoid problems with the hammer binding or not hitting the firing pin squarely. Finally, after all of these "BHO stuck" threads and all of the times I have inquired about which hammer the weapon has.... there is someone else out there that realizes what the root issue of these failures is. I modify my own hammers and never get a stuck BHO. My BHO failed while the weapon was in it's sporter configuration with all of the factory equipped parts. The exact failure y'all are talking about, the BHO would clear the rails inside the receiver and jam the bolt carrier up... The factory hammers are narrow enough to allow transverse movement in the receiver too. If the transverse movement of the BHO is limited by the hammer, it won't go above the rail. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wolf88 1 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I can load a full mag with the bolt closed on mine just took a touch of practice is that not normal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I can load a full mag with the bolt closed on mine just took a touch of practice is that not normal? In order to load a full mag relatively easily against a closed bolt, radical re-profiling and polishing must be done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I can load a full mag with the bolt closed on mine just took a touch of practice is that not normal? In order to load a full mag relatively easily against a closed bolt, radical re-profiling and polishing must be done. "radical" is a very good word for it. I would add "extreme" to the list of descriptive words for that process. Maybe even "stressful" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I can load a full mag with the bolt closed on mine just took a touch of practice is that not normal? In order to load a full mag relatively easily against a closed bolt, radical re-profiling and polishing must be done. It is normal to learn how to do it. The rock n lock design is simply put obsolete technology and it is clumsy, but with the right technique and practice you can learn to load mags on an OEM bolt closed. People who say otherwise just haven't gotten the technique down. The statement just isn't true. I am sure a good re-profiling makes a huge improvement in the process, but it is very possible to learn without it. I think a good profiling would be well worth the effort, or the money at current rates, but it is not indispensable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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