Pump guns have less ways to fail-- Right?

[Syndicate 812]

*giggles* I'm so silly

 

i giggle a lot too.

 

OH STOP! *limp wrist motion*

[mostholycerebus 415]

*giggles* I'm so silly

 

No, you just have a silly small dog.

[VR762Shooter 838]

This thread is starting to go south, I think everyone but 1 person is in agreement that the MAJORITY of LEO will not see a Saiga as a duty weapon anytime soon. And Remmy and Mossberg are getting the job for their price.

[GREYLUPO 358]

Yes I know Im right. I think a MAJORITY of LEO would NOT choose a Saiga 12 over say a Benelli or a Remington or even FN for a semi. And anybody who thinks pumps suck

 

and are unreliable are not just silly, but are dumbasses and uninformed and need to go shoot more and learn how to use one. That goes for any weapon. I dont care what

 

some podunk gunsmith says or has seen. I guess ignorance IS bliss.

 

Thats all I gotta say about the subject.

[gunfun 3,931]

I did not see anyone post that pumps are unreliable. Just that the reliability is exaggerated by fanaticism and willful blindness to the failures they experience personally. Good job putting that straw-man in his place though.

 

Do I think the majority of any organization will quickly change it's opinion- even when there are better options? --Of course not. It is a bit absurd to me that many of the same people who make the argument that since most LE use this shotgun and have done so for decades, it must be the best, are the same ones who have been violently against the AR platform which could be supported by the same reasoning. I like them all.

 

Did I start this thread to say that pumps were worthless or advocate departments change their gear? --Nope. (however if I was LEO I would want any military grade semi over a pump. I can still eject the beanbags by grabbing the bolt handle, and almost as fast as people can work a pump) I think most LEs in USA do issue either a Rem 870 or a Moss 500. Both are good guns especially for the cost, however I think that even both of those companies offer Semis I would rather see cops carrying. I wouldn't mind owning an 870, and may even get one for my aunt.

 

The point of the thread was more along the lines of laughing at people's mental filters. People have a strong belief and reject information that doesn't conform. As in "my gun shoots 1 MOA, based on these 3 shot groups." (assuming you don't measure the whole group, cause these two were "fliers") That's the same as saying "this gun never fails." (except when I short shucked, that doesn't count because it was user error, or that other time, because I chose the wrong length of shell...) IMO everything counts, including user errors. I am interested in the gun as a system which has a human component. If that system is vulnerable to flaws in the human-machine interaction, the whole system has a problem. It may be that you can choose to accept that system in spite of the flaws, but that is a very poor reason to insult those who can see the inherent flaws. I am in the same boat if I start ignoring flaws in my preferred system.

 

Let's get this thread back on track. Post a failure video, or a story of any shotgun, including saigas.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I had a guy come into my local shop with an 870 that was chambered in 3 1/2 shells. The shotgun was in pieces and it wasnt his gun. He was in there about an hour or so trying to get it back together with the guy behind the counter before I came in. Turns out niether of them have had any experience with the disassembly procedure on a Remmy. I came in and noticed the bolt was missing the spring and the sleeve that covers the chamber when the bolt is closed on the 3 1/2" models. I looked at the bolt, looked at the sleeve, and reassembled the entire gun for them in a matter of a minute or a minute in a half. I then took the gun back apart and gave the both a lesson on taking the gun apart and putting it back together.

 

As it tuns out, the man who brought the gun in, offered to clean it for a friend of his, and didnt know shit about it. Kinda funny, but I wasnt being a dick about it. The more they know, the better off they are.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

GunFun,

Excellent point on the hand eject of beanbags. With a Saiga 12, at least every round available doesn't have to be ejected by hand.

 

On another note, I got rained out today and couldn't work on the pool I am building, so I went in to the shop to fix a couple of Camp 9s that I made hammer strut bridges for.... lo and behold there was a Mossberg 500A in the safe. Given my commentary earlier, I thought it was quite a noteworthy coincidence. It was failing to feed. After a couple racks of the slide with some rounds in it, I could see that the arm that interacts with the cartridge stop on the action slide tube assemble and the cartridge stop were really worn and the bar wasn't deactivating the stop as it should to allow a round to come out of the tube. I could have fixed the parts, but it would have likely taken me more time than the parts were worth, so I ordered some. I have to admit this thing was well worn from front to back. So, for a cheap shotgun, it was probably about time that something wore out and caused a failure. However, I bet my first S12 conversion has a lot more rounds on it and they have surely been run through it at a rate much higher than the 500 is capable of producing, even with a very experienced pump gunner. It was an interesting day.... and the hammer strut bridges for the Camp 9s worked out. Those parts are scarce because they get damaged when the buffer wears out and it is a very common failure.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I seen a similar problem with an old ass 500. My buddy who is almost 80 bought it many years ago when they still had single action arms. His was doing a similar thing you mentioned EVL. But his interuptor was no longer interupting. lol. Mossy's are hard to beat. Especially for the price.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Captain Hero

[gunfun 3,931]

That's more like it.

 

I think we've all had at least one time where we stepped up to the firing line and took a shot to find our saiga mags at our feet, because we hadn't quite clicked it home. We've all probably struggled with loading a full mag on a closed bolt too. I don't have videos of the first, but nearly every video of someone on youtube showing off his new saiga shows the second. I just posted a video of me in another thread fumbling with a couple of mags that are still snug from recent fitting.

[gunfun 3,931]

my pastor lent me his favorite shotgun to fix. It was a stevens that was pre 67 so no serials, or really any other markings to speak of. In fact I drudged through pretty much every gunsmith site and stevens/old shotgun forum. Turns out even for the expert fanatics, it is really difficult to sort out what model a particular old stevens is. That was doing light primer strikes, and needed at leas a new mainspring, and probably a new firing pin for good measure. I think I found the right model and the parts, but I never ordered them so who knows.

 

Why is this relevant? The main reason this had been in his closed for years was that he didn't know how to clean it. I've noticed that many shotguns are a pain in the butt to take apart even for basic cleaning. My dad's old winchester 1300 Stainless Marine was. So it didn't get cleaned unless someone who cared was around. It sat in storage for half a decade because the slide was gunked solid. My very large step brother had to thoroughly soak the whole gun in solvents and penetrants and then wrestle on it with all his bodyweight to get it free. While I cannot blame the gun for such neglect, I do see a flaw in any gun that is such a hassle to clean that you put it off. (i.e. my beloved S&W target .22lr) Also most pumps have rails with long surface areas sliding through grooves. All of that is vulnerable to getting increased friction from corrosion, dust, residue, or even old gun oil becoming sticky. Most semi auto shotguns made before around 1998 are a giant hassle, and take a ton of cleaning to run. Being able to do a field clean in 2 minutes with the saiga is one of the nicest features, and one of the few features on paper that beats out the Adkal.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

GunFun,

If you can get a pic of the Stevens, tell me the action type, barrel length, and overall length, I may be able to tell you what model it is.

 

Stevens shotguns sometimes share parts with Fox, Sears, Savage, and Springfield shotguns. There may be others, but I am not aware of them.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Didnt Crescent get bought out by Stevens at one point? Only reason I ask is that I would like to find a model number for a stock replacement. Dont really want to have one made. ( If I can help it)

 

ETA. NM. I found it.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Captain Hero

[ironhead7544 35]

Get an S12. Atlantic has them for $599, add another $150 in parts and you are still under the price of most ARs.

 

 

And the guy who posted the video did say it was his magazine cap.

 

Add one more to the failure list for many pumps.

 

-Have to hit the slide release just right to reload it. (Our old Win 1300 Stainless Marine Police's slide release started sticking then quit doing anything at all, when the breach started opening during fire, the pieces went bottom fishing so my dad wouldn't take stupid risks.) It seems like every pump has a different place for sticking that release and some take a light touch while others have to be pressed way up there. I almost bought a Nova once years ago, and the thing that stopped me was that the slide release was actually sharp. It hurt to rack the slide on a new gun. I just didn't love it enough, so I went back to looking for a Semi for a few years.

 

-- another one. I've seen a pump fed gun that had either a weak spring or grit or something so that the little catch that holds the rim of the shells as they click into the feed tube was wonky. fumble a shell in and it could spit a bunch of shells out the back. I am sure this would be cheaply fixable, but it was a real problem.

 

 

FYI, I don't hate pumps, but it bugs me when people talk about a particular gun or other gadget as if it has never failed, when we have all experienced failures with them. There are many great products that are better than average reliability that have a hyped up reputation, such that people feel like the failures they experience are out of the normal, and need to be discounted. I will be fair about reporting the failures of my beloved saiga, I loved that I fed one of my pistols way over 6k rounds with the only malfunction due to a badly deformed silver bear JHP. However, when the mag wore out, honesty requires me to say that it started failing to feed regularly and that the replacement factory and aftermarket mags do not run 100% , I like my SGM mags, but I don't feel the need to attack the handfull of people who report problems with them, and I will report that mine kept falling out of Salt's gun for no discernible reason (fully locked up solid, tab fully engaged. No other mags had this problem. Still want to get to the bottom of that one.)

 

Here's a list of popular sacred cows: 10/22, AK 47, toyota trucks, austrian plastic pistols, apple computers.

 

+1 on this. And dont forget the 1911. I get badly flamed when I mention problems with that one. The reality is: expect the unexpected. Anything can fail.

 

And, you can get a lemon from any maker. I have been into guns since the 50ties and have worked in the industry. Hate to tell you about the bad ones I have seen and owned.

[Pro2A 17]

You guys are silly....

 

The Remington 870 is the most trusted and widely used pump gun used by Military and Police around the world, for a reason. Most errors are by the user, like short shucking it or what the dumbass in the vid did. Have you seen any LEOs riding around with a Saiga? Hell no! I like my Saiga and have HUNDREDS of rounds through it without one problem. My Remington 870 Police (not express) over a thousand and not one problem. Id stay away from the express models.

 

When SHTF, I know I can trust it. If I wanted a semi for "serious" use, Id go with the Benelli M2 or M4.

Now I'm nervous, why stay away from the express models?

[Syndicate 812]

I would get a Beni pump personally

[DrThunder88 912]

I have nothing to contribute to the discussion on pump guns, but I will note that the title should be "Pump guns have fewer ways to fail..."

[Voltia 375]

My couple points.

 

I like many shotguns. I have a good 870 from back in the day that is a wonderful gun. I have a Benelli M4,

and it is about the best semi-auto I have seen. I have an uncoverted Saiga 12 that works all right, the trigger

is bad, the safety is stiff, and it sometimes won't cycle bird shot. I like it, and I know how to fix its issues, and

I'll convert it and get it awesome down the road. I own Mossbergs too.

 

Every gun and car crowd thinks theirs is the best, and other people are idiots. It's an exercise in poor intellect

and self rationalization to convince yourself that You Bought the Best so you're a good person.

 

Saigas have their issues. Shell deformation, wrong gas setting, bad trigger, stiff safeties, bad ergonomics. No,

a local police department will NOT be able to get non-sporters made direct from Ishmash; they'd have to get

converted for extra cost. Are they fun, good guns? Absolutely.

 

A police weapon is a tool. Extra cannot be spent on it. It has to handle all its duties, even the ones that are not shooting.

It has to hold ammo for long periods of time without hurting the ammo. It has to be workable. It has to be carried safely.

It has to be politically acceptable (and no, a gun that looks like an AK-47 on steroids is NOT politically correct for most American

police departments.) It has to clean easily and be repaired easily.

 

Would police departments love Benelli M4's? Hell yes. Would they pay 3x more than an 870? Probably not. Plus, most

police departments train with load as you go tube feeders. Saigas don't do that, and while the box mag is a good alternative,

it's different, so it won't fly.

[gunfun 3,931]

My couple points.

 

I like many shotguns. I have a good 870 from back in the day that is a wonderful gun. I have a Benelli M4,

and it is about the best semi-auto I have seen. I have an uncoverted Saiga 12 that works all right, the trigger

is bad, the safety is stiff, and it sometimes won't cycle bird shot. I like it, and I know how to fix its issues, and

I'll convert it and get it awesome down the road. I own Mossbergs too.

 

Every gun and car crowd thinks theirs is the best, and other people are idiots. It's an exercise in poor intellect

and self rationalization to convince yourself that You Bought the Best so you're a good person.

 

Saigas have their issues. Shell deformation, wrong gas setting, bad trigger, stiff safeties, bad ergonomics. No,

a local police department will NOT be able to get non-sporters made direct from Ishmash; they'd have to get

converted for extra cost. Are they fun, good guns? Absolutely.

 

A police weapon is a tool. Extra cannot be spent on it. It has to handle all its duties, even the ones that are not shooting.

It has to hold ammo for long periods of time without hurting the ammo. It has to be workable. It has to be carried safely.

It has to be politically acceptable (and no, a gun that looks like an AK-47 on steroids is NOT politically correct for most American

police departments.) It has to clean easily and be repaired easily.

 

Would police departments love Benelli M4's? Hell yes. Would they pay 3x more than an 870? Probably not. Plus, most

police departments train with load as you go tube feeders. Saigas don't do that, and while the box mag is a good alternative,

it's different, so it won't fly.

 

Agreed on all the criticisms of the S12, with two and a half exceptions.1) They did import S12 Ks for law enforcement only. No doubt they would again if there is a market for it. Many LE agancies carry 12" or 14" 870s or Moss 500, so I don't think the fact of it being an NFA weapon is really that big a deal. 2) What is easier to clean and maintain than an AK? I can feild strip and reasemmble in about a minute. taking out the gas plug and clearing the ports only takes a couple of minutes too. Most pumps I have used were difficult to do much more than brush and swab out the barrel. I haven't torn down an 870, but the Win 1300 is a pain. (1/2) cops don't seem to have any problem carrying ARs, why should carrying a tacticool AK be any different?

 

Re: the stevens. I moved and gave his gun back to him. I don't remember the details I worked out either. I'd take you up you guys on the offer if I still had it with me though. I liked the simple locking lug mechanism and the way rotating the magazine allowed for disassembly.

 

Again, lets keep the trend of this thread towards posting amusing failures of any shotgun, including saigas, and avoid the X vs. Y, as that has been done. I should have chosen a different title for the first post.

Edited September 15, 2012 by GunFun

[storm6490 2,768]

I had an M4 and sold it after I broke in my tac47 saiga 12. The saiga is more fun and I believe more trustworthy. At least that was my comparison with the ones I owned and operated personally. Both were maintained per spec. The capacity of the saiga and the magazine made it a win, win situation. Needed room in the safe for another rifle! Don't really miss the M4. It was a good shotgun.

 

The older pump action remmington was great. The new ones use plastic here and there. Not exactly what they used to be. I wouldn't suggest modifying one like we do to the saiga. Stock, it's one of the most dependable shotguns on the planet but sucks compared to a well tuned saiga!

[Jpanzer 1,265]

For what it's worth, i know of at least one LEO who is a member of this board who has stated he rides with his personal S12 as the shotty in his car. Guess he was one of those too stupid to know the difference...

[Fitty% 808]

Now this isnt the guns fault but operator error.....didnt really have any problems with my saiga...

 

[gunfun 3,931]

For what it's worth, i know of at least one LEO who is a member of this board who has stated he rides with his personal S12 as the shotty in his car. Guess he was one of those too stupid to know the difference...

 

very few LE departments offer that kind of flexibility. He's lucky. The place I used to work would insure 2 sidearm models in 9 and .40 at a time. for a while it was m9 & glock Then it was M9 & HKUSP then Glock & M9. The m9 stuck around because many officers had a lot of cash into duty holsters, magazines.. and all the support equipment. I like that gun, but it doesn't win on paper. The thing that stands out in that sequence is that there were a lot of glock fanboys there who had substantial investment in their glocks and support gear. Then they weren't allowed to carry it for a while. Then they were. Why? Money. HK offered a really good deal on the USP, and the m9 was intrenched, so they couldn't have USP and glock on the policy. None of those were bad guns and all had supporters. Officers seldom have the luxury of carrying their choice of weaponry. Ammo? hydrashok for pistols and reduced recoil flight control slugs /OOB for their 14" 870s.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I never saw it coming, but I bought an 870 express Magnum today. It has a 28" barrel and I'm not sure what to do with it yet.

[timy 1,185]

I never saw it coming, but I bought an 870 express Magnum today. It has a 28" barrel and I'm not sure what to do with it yet.

 

I'll bet you figure something out.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I never saw it coming, but I bought an 870 express Magnum today. It has a 28" barrel and I'm not sure what to do with it yet.

 

I'll bet you figure something out.

I may do an action job on it and see if I can make a Cadillac out of this Chevy

[gunfun 3,931]

Shoot it, keep it simple and maybe put high viz sights on there.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Shoot it, keep it simple and maybe put high viz sights on there.

I'm probably going to just refine what is already there. I don't want to put any money into it.... too many other things on the short list

 

If I had never heard of the Saiga 12, I'd probably like it a lot more.

[timy 1,185]

I sold my excellent 28" 870 to save it from being attacked. By me. With a hacksaw, among other things. I don't miss it much and if I ever do, I can buy it back.