27 replies to this topic

[manatee]

How do the SGM Vepr-12 magazines compare with the original factory Molot magazines? What are the differences?

[SGM]

Our magazines will not have any metal clips on them and will be higher capacity. The magazines we make will look like our regular Saiga mags except the locking lugs will be different and hold either 10 or 12 rounds instead of only 5. We are hoping to make them in such a way that the lrbho functions as it should.

[lewie212]

Sweet Im excited. I got a vepr on preorder.

[manatee]

Our magazines will not have any metal clips on them and will be higher capacity. The magazines we make will look like our regular Saiga mags except the locking lugs will be different and hold either 10 or 12 rounds instead of only 5. We are hoping to make them in such a way that the lrbho functions as it should.

What do the metal clips do? My concern is if anything is lost (strength?) by not having them.

When will you know if your magazines retain the LRBHO function?

Edited by manatee, 21 September 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[JoeAldrich]

Are there any 922r issues when using the 10 round mag on a stock gun?

[SGM]

The polymer that other factories use is not as strong or have as much glass content as ours so they need metal reinforcement. Once we get some sample magazines ready for testing we will know for sure. As for 922r we are not really certain about it yet due to the configuration the shotguns are being imported, also the revised study would have to be taken into consideration. Right now we are spending all our time focusing on getting our mags ready. Perhaps someone else has insight on the 922r question.

[Lord Ak-47]

Any plans for an 8 round magazine or can these be cut down to 8 rounders?

[manatee]

The polymer that other factories use is not as strong or have as much glass content as ours so they need metal reinforcement. Once we get some sample magazines ready for testing we will know for sure. As for 922r we are not really certain about it yet due to the configuration the shotguns are being imported, also the revised study would have to be taken into consideration. Right now we are spending all our time focusing on getting our mags ready. Perhaps someone else has insight on the 922r question.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

[SGM]

We might do a 8 round may in the future.

[Lord Ak-47]

We might do a 8 round may in the future.

I am sure alot of people will really want 8 rounders. I would be willing to bet 8 rounders would be more popular then 12 rounders.

[raider929]

Are there any 922r issues when using the 10 round mag on a stock gun?

Let me preface this by saying I am not a lawyer nor do I work for BATFE, nothing I'm about to say has any legal bearing. I'm merely someone who has a VEPR-12 on preorder and did some reading about 922r to try to figure this out.

It's clear as mud like most things BATFE rules about. I spent some time reading the revised study yesterday, full version is here: http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf

The relevant part concerning what causes a shotgun to be banned from import is this:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.

Of note is here is that pistol grips for the trigger hand are not considered an "evil" feature anymore (it says as much in the full ruling I linked above). That change appears to be what allows us to import VEPR-12's (and probably Saiga-12s in their natural configuration) as long as none of the above features are on the gun when it is getting imported. I would assume this is also why it ships with a 5 round magazine, as that is the limit for a sporting shotgun.

I cant find 922r on any official .gov website, however the relevant text can be found here: http://home.comcast..../home/922r.html
Section 922 Paragraph R states:
"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "

Thanks to the new ATF ruling (I know, I"m thanking the ATF for something, I'm as confused as you are), the VEPR-12 is no longer prohibited from import under 925(d)(3). The VEPR-12 is shipped with a 5-round magazine which still qualifies as a sporting shotgun under 925(d)(3). My understanding of the above is that if you put a magazine of more than 5 rounds into the VEPR-12 you're assembling a shotgun that would've been prohibited from importation and therefor the 922r parts count applies.

Take that for what you will, as I said I'm no lawyer and I do not work for BATFE, just my understanding of the law as it stands now.

[JoeAldrich]

Cool, thank you very much for that response. I had no idea the BATF actually loosened their import restrictions! Hopefully these things don't get too cheap... I justified dropping a grand on one by telling myself they'll be way more valuable in the near future. Oh well, either way I'll have another sick shotgun!

[Captain Hero]

Im guessing that using US made mags wont put it into 922r, since it states about assembling from IMPORTED parts.

[raider929]

Im guessing that using US made mags wont put it into 922r, since it states about assembling from IMPORTED parts.

Maybe, I'm not sure. The rest of the shotgun is imported, so you could make the argument you're assembling a shotgun from imported parts. This might be another one of those situations where no one can be sure until someone from BATFE writes a letter about it and even then it's just one agent's opinion.

[gose]

Im guessing that using US made mags wont put it into 922r, since it states about assembling from IMPORTED parts.

Using a mag that holds more than five rounds makes the shotgun non-sporting and as such, better not contain more than 10 foreign made listed parts.
My guess is that a non-modified VEPR has more than 10 listed parts and thus would be illegal to use any 5+ round magazines in.

Edited by gose, 16 October 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[JoeAldrich]

Any idea how many parts need to be swapped to US-made in order to comply?

[hdskumm]

I'm anything but an expert on this, but just ordered mine on friday so am interested in making this compliant myself. Can't imagine just using 5 round clips on this thing. Looking at this parts breakdown here: http://forum.saiga-1...epr-12-diagram/ I counted 16 potential parts, so I'd have to swap out 5 ( buttstock already US)...if anyone has more of an expert opinion on this feel free to correct me

27 C.F.R. 478.89 lists 20 parts:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers-----------------------
(12) Hammers--------------------- trigger group
(13) Sear
(14) Disconnectors-------------
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies-----------
(19) Followers-------------------- magazine
(20) Floorplates------------------

I'm looking to swap out the pistol grip and muzzle break right away, The stock is already US, but if I can find a left side folder I'll swap it anyway. I guess I'll just "toss" the mag it comes with and just use US mags to gain my parts easier. I like the look of the metal mags though, maybe a US company will make something comparable that doesn't break the bank. If the parts count does wind up being less than this, I might spring for the factory 8 rounders.

Edited by hdskumm, 27 October 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Lord Ak-47]

The factory mags are not metal.

[Chevyman097]

It will be very easy to make the VEPR compliant if they come out with mags over 5 rounds.

[Lord Ak-47]

It will be very easy to make the VEPR compliant if they come out with mags over 5 rounds.

SGM says the US made 10 & 12 rounders should be ready in a week.

[Chevyman097]

It will be very easy to make the VEPR compliant if they come out with mags over 5 rounds.

SGM says the US made 10 & 12 rounders should be ready in a week.

Sweet! looks like ill be ordering a US stock set.

[hdskumm]

The factory mags are not metal.

They looked like they were in the pics. looks like I'll order a few SGM 10's when they come back in stock.

[Lord Ak-47]

The factory mags are not metal.

They looked like they were in the pics. looks like I'll order a few SGM 10's when they come back in stock.

They just have metal on the looking lug similar to Saiga 12 magazines. I am sure they are metal reinforced inside the Polymer casing also.

[Paul Michael Pawlowski]

It will be very easy to make the VEPR compliant if they come out with mags over 5 rounds.

Potentially easy fix.
FCG=3 parts
Barrel nut, (or Dinzag AK74 style break & bayonet, US made Molot break, polychoke etc..) =1
MD Arms Molot grip=1
US made buttstock=1

Above = 922R compliant.

http://gunwiki.net/G...erifyCompliance

Then you can run Russian 8's too
From what I hear from another builder I supply, my generic S-12 FCG mods work well with the Vepr-12, and I use Tapcos to start, so it shouldn't be an issue to get to 922R.
I understand the Vepr's hammer axis just needs to be a touch longer than for the S-12.
I'll get the process dialed in in a week or so when it arrives.
Yeah.... Late to the game.
These damn veprs better sell well or I'm going to be pissed about dropping a grand on a prototype shop gun.
That being said.... hehehe...



Pauly's got an idea...

[lewie212]

It will be very easy to make the VEPR compliant if they come out with mags over 5 rounds.

Potentially easy fix.
FCG=3 parts
Barrel nut, (or Dinzag AK74 style break & bayonet, US made Molot break, polychoke etc..) =1
MD Arms Molot grip=1
US made buttstock=1

Above = 922R compliant.

http://gunwiki.net/G...erifyCompliance

Then you can run Russian 8's too
From what I hear from another builder I supply, my generic S-12 FCG mods work well with the Vepr-12, and I use Tapcos to start, so it shouldn't be an issue to get to 922R.
I understand the Vepr's hammer axis just needs to be a touch longer than for the S-12.
I'll get the process dialed in in a week or so when it arrives.
Yeah.... Late to the game.
These damn veprs better sell well or I'm going to be pissed about dropping a grand on a prototype shop gun.
That being said.... hehehe...

1
I want in. Let me know when your ready for VEPR12 work. Im gonna need you to do me a fcg and who knows what else.
Pauly's got an idea...

[alternety]

I just fired a few rounds through my Atlantic Vepr. Magazine dropped free and jammed the weapon 4 times before I managed to get it right. Mag does not fit easily. You have to put it in and then tilt the bottom to the rear for the lip to seat in the mag well. It required a fair amount of force. Not a simple shove it in and it locks. Not happy. I will look at what is happening and see if I can see the problem.

[Chevyman097]

I just fired a few rounds through my Atlantic Vepr. Magazine dropped free and jammed the weapon 4 times before I managed to get it right. Mag does not fit easily. You have to put it in and then tilt the bottom to the rear for the lip to seat in the mag well. It required a fair amount of force. Not a simple shove it in and it locks. Not happy. I will look at what is happening and see if I can see the problem.

I have two mags, One did fit tighter than the other at first. After several times of using it started fitting better.

On a closed chamber dont be afraid to give it a good hard bump on the bottom to make it snap in. Seemed to work for me fine. With the bolt locked back they fit in very easy.

[Lord Ak-47]

Both of my 5 rounders insert fine and drop from magwell with no issue.

Edited by Lord Ak-47, 02 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.