American Capitalist 7 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 So I finished my conversion a few weeks ago. Good. My only gripe is my Saiga is being finnicky with low brass again. It cycled everything up to Win Universal before the conversion, but now it won't even cycle Federal target load. I first assumed it must have been the new, unpolished hammer. I took it out and grinded/polished it smooth. Still nothing with my Tac-47 Autoplug opened all the way up. Unless there's some other low brass trick I don't know, I think I'm going to need to drill out some holes. I'm pretty sure I have a 2-port gun (or a 3-port with one blocked hole). All I need to know is the reccommended diameters for two and three-port guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 When I was having trouble with mine, the first thing I did was take the auto plug off and run the stock plug. Hard to believe that it ran everything before and now it's undergassed. I'd pull the gas block and by the time you get that done someone will chime in with the numbers. If you know you have a blocked port, that's the first place to start anyhow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sjglaw 1 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Just curious, if you remove the Tac 47 and plug and put the old puck and plug in, what happens? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 According to this thread, 3 @ 3/32 is what is working. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/33836-modification-to-repair-fte-issues-on-saigas-with-blocked-gas-ports/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Send it to us. Enclose a check. Problem solved! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Better yet... I'll send you a $800 and take that non firing pile o' junk off your hands. Always willing to help out. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Didn't try everything.... or it would run like this 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Evl, we all love you, and respect what you do. Its time to get a fucking business membership, brother! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sapper1371usmc 107 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 If its a 19" gun, 3 ports at .093". 4 ports at .073". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 If its a 19" gun, 3 ports at .093". 4 ports at .073". There ya go. Go with this and make sure that they are all unobstructed. My gas block came off very easily, so no need to fear it. I was able to just use the little punch in the cleaning kit. I then used a chisel and smacked the threaded mount for the hand guard and off it came. I only had to open mine up a small amount to hit .073. That said, it was still short of .073 from the factory. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
American Capitalist 7 Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I always assumed the Tac47 plug helped it get more gas. Before the conversion I could cycle Win Universal, but not with the stock plug. I will try switching back and probably drill it out now that I have the numbers. Better yet... I'll send you a $800 and take that non firing pile o' junk off your hands. Always willing to help out. I got offered $1450 for it a day ago. The guy said his girlfriend wouldn't let him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 If its a 19" gun, 3 ports at .093". 4 ports at .078". or more if needed. If you have 2 ports, add 2. Evl, we all love you, and respect what you do. Its time to get a fucking business membership, brother! I haven't seen him offer any products or services for sale. Bragging is another issue, and not a problem with forum rules. Telling people how to do it themselves is not a business either. I'd like to see him have a business account too, but not until he is operating a business. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lZl Jody lZl 1 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 There went about 60 bucks in ammo. Didn't try everything.... or it would run like this Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdpete 6 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Didn't try everything.... or it would run like this Are you able to load your drums on a closed bolt minus one shell? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 I always assumed the Tac47 plug helped it get more gas. Before the conversion I could cycle Win Universal, but not with the stock plug. I will try switching back and probably drill it out now that I have the numbers. Better yet... I'll send you a $800 and take that non firing pile o' junk off your hands. Always willing to help out. I got offered $1450 for it a day ago. The guy said his girlfriend wouldn't let him. Then it wasn't a legit offer. Mine is and my girlfriend will let me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) Still nothing with my Tac-47 Autoplug opened all the way up. Which direction did you turn the auto plug? Edited January 29, 2013 by Jetmech 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
American Capitalist 7 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well clearly the fact that I have a two-port gun is a problem. I bought a nice little ballpein hammer and a center punch and went to work. First pin comes out, button comes out, and second pin won't budge. Tried pounding the shit out of both sides with no luck. Any reccomendations for a stubborn pin? Also, what's better: drilling 1-2 more holes or enlarging the current two holes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Obviously, if the gun ran great before conversion, and the only thing that was changed was drag, then only drag needs to be removed to get it running again. In my opinion, drilling at this point is a shortcut and a bandaid. Work a little harder and find the drag points. You will have a cleaner cycling gun if you do. I bet it turns out you have more than two ports if it is a 19" barrel and ran so well to begin with. Profiling is MUCH more important than polishing. Don't take the time to polish anything until it runs well. Also, I hope you scribed an alignment mark to get your block lined up straight again... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sapper1371usmc 107 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well clearly the fact that I have a two-port gun is a problem. I bought a nice little ballpein hammer and a center punch and went to work. First pin comes out, button comes out, and second pin won't budge. Tried pounding the shit out of both sides with no luck. Any reccomendations for a stubborn pin? Also, what's better: drilling 1-2 more holes or enlarging the current two holes? Use a short punch to the pin started. Adding more ports is better than enlarging the current two ports. Depending on the current size of the ports you have now, I would go with 4 ports at .073" or 3 ports at .093". 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 ditto to the above. One of the pins is smaller diameter. Are you sure your punch is small enough? tapping on the gas block to one side or another might relieve a bind also. More small holes is better than few big holes. Punch where you want the hole to be. Start vertical just a tad and then once your bit bites, stop and shift to a 20-30* angle. This will keep your bit from wandering.- Obviously, if the gun ran great before conversion, and the only thing that was changed was drag, then only drag needs to be removed to get it running again. In my opinion, drilling at this point is a shortcut and a bandaid. Work a little harder and find the drag points. You will have a cleaner cycling gun if you do. I bet it turns out you have more than two ports if it is a 19" barrel and ran so well to begin with. Profiling is MUCH more important than polishing. Don't take the time to polish anything until it runs well.Also, I hope you scribed an alignment mark to get your block lined up straight again... I'm not sure from his thread that he had fully verified that the gun ran great with all ammo before conversion. It probably ran with whatever he brought to the range... I could be wrong, but it is pretty unlikely that a 2 port gun did run well. I also suspect that he will find a port or two that he couldn't feel with the block on, but I might have to eat this prediction. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 That is what I was thinking as well. OP, let us know what you find. If you have more than two ports, you may need to bevel the underside of your gas block opening to expose other ports. Don't drill if you find more than your previously thought two ports. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Evl, we all love you, and respect what you do. Its time to get a fucking business membership, brother! I appreciate the kind words. Coming from you, it means a great deal to me. I inquired about it and never got a reply. I took that as an indicator of how welcome I am here as a business member. There went about 60 bucks in ammo. Didn't try everything.... or it would run like this Winchester Universal 100 round bulk pack. $24 OTD at Walmart before all hell broke loose with the ammo availability. Didn't try everything.... or it would run like this Are you able to load your drums on a closed bolt minus one shell? I can insert full drums with some effort, easily lock in a downloaded drum, or a full stick. I have logged a lot of rounds using the BHO and it is a hard habit to change. I have even accidentally tried to do it with my VEPR. The re-profile that I do on the bolt is very aggressive. Edited January 30, 2013 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I may have missed someone else saying it, but the pins go out from left to right. +1 on the short punch for getting pins to move initially. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
American Capitalist 7 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Left to right? So I should tap the pins out with the bolt handle (or where it would be) facing down? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Yes. Make sure whatever is under it is solid, so the weapon will be firmly supported. If whatever is under the gas block is allowed to give, it will absorb the energy instead of moving the pin. Use a punch with a shaft that is about 1/4" to 1/2" long and don't be afraid to smack it hard. A few hard strikes will deform the pin less that a lot of light strikes. I was just talking to someone a few days ago about how much gunsmithing is done with a hammer. It should almost be called Hammersmithing. I get guns in often that people just couldn't get apart to see what was wrong with them or couldn't get the sights off of to swap them out. Stubborn pins and sights are usually what causes most DIYs to abort mission. I won't hesitate to lay fury down on a weapon. When doing something for one of the other guys at the shop on their personal weapons, I tell them not to look, lol. They trust me and always like the results. After you get the pins out, give the gas block a couple of good whacks from side to side with a mallet. This breaks loose the burrs where the pins were and makes it drive off easier. Note the lug on the bottom of the gas block where the handguard screw goes. Again, with the weapon firmly supported (in a well-mounted vise, barrel down), use a large punch or dulled cold chisel on that lug to drive the block off. when it is time to put it back on, apply some lube to the inside of the gas block and on the gas block seat. Usually, a rubber or leather mallet will drive the gas block on by striking the face of the block where the gas regulator goes. Make sure the regulator is not in the gas block. Edited January 30, 2013 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blackknight135 9 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Take a look at your rails, I had gap show up that stopped it from cycling and may have been the cause of the bolt carrier cracking. Pauly fixed it {bolt carrier} and I ground the rail as little as possible and polished. Runs great now. The same thing happened to my sons gun {both 08's}. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sapper1371usmc 107 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 If its a 19" gun, 3 ports at .093". 4 ports at .073". or more if needed. If you have 2 ports, add 2. Evl, we all love you, and respect what you do. Its time to get a fucking business membership, brother! I haven't seen him offer any products or services for sale. Bragging is another issue, and not a problem with forum rules. Telling people how to do it themselves is not a business either. I'd like to see him have a business account too, but not until he is operating a business. There. Fixed it back for you. I can get a 3 port gun at .093" ports and 4 port guns at .073" to cycle 100% on any of the bulk ammo for hundreds of rounds without cleaning , even more so the 4 port especially since the entire port surface area is larger with the 4 ports at .073 than the 3 ports at the above listed size. .078" ports probably wouldnt hurt anything, but whats the point. Id rather go with the smallest port size that allows for reliable function every time. For me, thats .073. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyE 81 Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yes. Make sure whatever is under it is solid, so the weapon will be firmly supported. If whatever is under the gas block is allowed to give, it will absorb the energy instead of moving the pin. Use a punch with a shaft that is about 1/4" to 1/2" long and don't be afraid to smack it hard. A few hard strikes will deform the pin less that a lot of light strikes. I was just talking to someone a few days ago about how much gunsmithing is done with a hammer. It should almost be called Hammersmithing. I get guns in often that people just couldn't get apart to see what was wrong with them or couldn't get the sights off of to swap them out. Stubborn pins and sights are usually what causes most DIYs to abort mission. I won't hesitate to lay fury down on a weapon. When doing something for one of the other guys at the shop on their personal weapons, I tell them not to look, lol. They trust me and always like the results. After you get the pins out, give the gas block a couple of good whacks from side to side with a mallet. This breaks loose the burrs where the pins were and makes it drive off easier. Note the lug on the bottom of the gas block where the handguard screw goes. Again, with the weapon firmly supported (in a well-mounted vise, barrel down), use a large punch or dulled cold chisel on that lug to drive the block off. when it is time to put it back on, apply some lube to the inside of the gas block and on the gas block seat. Usually, a rubber or leather mallet will drive the gas block on by striking the face of the block where the gas regulator goes. Make sure the regulator is not in the gas block. An idea to run by you. When putting a VERY TIGHT gas block back on one of my barrels, (it took some real pounding to get it off), rather than smack it back on with a mallet, I heated the gas block in a 400 degree oven for about 30 minutes. When it was hot, I grabbed it with insulated gloves and it dropped right over the room-temperature barrel. Slipped on like a size 10 shoe over a size 8 foot. No muss, no fuss. Never got the gas block hot enought to affect the metallurgy. What do you pros think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
American Capitalist 7 Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 What do you pros think? I don't know what to think. I still haven't gotten the damn gas block off yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyE 81 Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Well, I only have experience with three Saiga 12's, so I'm no expert, but two gas blocks were a cinch to remove. The third took some real muscle, and the key was putting the muzzle down on a piece of 1x4 on the concrete basement floor. Doing this eliminated nearly all the "give" that a softer or springy surface, like my workbench, provided. None of the hammer blows wasted energy compressing the bench. The concrete floor was a solid anvil. And I still had to really swing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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