tobafa 19 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 I found it hard to believe my rail was causing the FTE's even after I ported but it turns it did. Had a cheapo Phoenix rail and after I took it off, no issues. What rail would you guys suggest? Looking at the Chaos aluminum rail but am open to others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 CHAOS, CHAOS, CHAOS You will not find a better setup than what Cameron has to offer. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bcrider 68 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 There have been many threads on this and some have been skeptical about a rail causing failures. My dumbass put a UTG quad rail on mine at first with a ton of FTEs. Couple of years ago I went to a CSS tri rail. All the difference in the world. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 Yeah Chaos is the best I've tried on any Saiga unless you're going for original style oran ultra light rig. I almost sold the Chaos on my 762 last week. Then i sobered up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tobafa 19 Posted February 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 The odd thing is, I looked at a ton of posts about FTE and never saw anything about the rails. I only knew about this when I mentioned my frustration after porting. Glad you guys are here to help! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 If I were to go back to a alum. rail, it would be Chaos. I like how light my gun is without all the crap on it that I started out with. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 Tri-rails make Mikhail cry.... and make Saiga 12s FAIL! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 I found this out about 4-5 years ago with a buddies S12, no offense but it was a Chaos rail so don't kid yourself that a better rail will solve the problem. Like I said then, I think the issue is the alignment of the gun more than the rail, the rail just stiffens the gun to the point that it won't flex enough to cycle properly. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 What rail would you guys suggest? No rail 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Razr 23 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have UTG rail and my S-12 runs just fine. There are were a few threads here that mentioned some rails cover side exhaust hole. It causes problems. You may want to inspect it and drill a hole in the rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I don't think is has so much to do with the hole. I think it has much more to do with adding too much rigidity to the weapon. Loose is fast.... wait that's NASCAR.... loose is reliable! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jpnrm96 70 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Hey Evl......where does loose put Danica???? I don't care how loose she is, I'll be glad to show her the ropes. (or cuffs) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I found this out about 4-5 years ago with a buddies S12, no offense but it was a Chaos rail so don't kid yourself that a better rail will solve the problem. Like I said then, I think the issue is the alignment of the gun more than the rail, the rail just stiffens the gun to the point that it won't flex enough to cycle properly. Don't kid yourself, a better quality rail well absolutely makes a difference. When FTE's happen after installing a rail system on your weapon it's because the percussion wave throughout the weapon has been altered. Meaning something has changed in the way the weapon reacts to the harmonics from the sonic forces traveling through the weapon. When a weapon starts to FTE after putting a rail on it's because something was close to failing (rubbing, binding) in the first place. In slow motion you can see how a weapon twist, bounces up, down and moves side to side. Better built rail can reduce or at very least give you a more solid platform but with just the right amount of movement, providing more stability and causing less added irregular shock wave patterns which can be hard if not impossible to counteract. Cheap rails are very thin, extruded from soft aluminum or cast thick to appear quality made. The thin rail with thin webbing will be unstable, causing irregular shock wave patterns, the cast rail will be way to stiff allowing for little movement causing binding, a good quality rail should be somewhere in between, right design, right material, and in all the right places. Quality does count! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have UTG rail and my S-12 runs just fine. There are were a few threads here that mentioned some rails cover side exhaust hole. It causes problems. You may want to inspect it and drill a hole in the rail. Yeah but if you watch any slow-mo video's you'll see it bouncing over a 1/4" up and down. Not a very stable platform for any kind of sights! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
misterT 174 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 but if you watch any slow-mo video's you'll see it bouncing over a 1/4" up and down. Not a very stable platform form any kind of sights! So then the fold down sights cowitnesed with a holographic sight, red dot scope, a laser, a flashlight, a range finder, a bipod with a forward grip and a set of HK sights are basically rendered useless? Sorry I could not help myself I just cant believe all the "stuff" some people put on these weapons. That being said If I ever were to buy a rail system it WOULD be a CHAOS system. What I think would be awesome would be if Cameron made a compatable lower that was just a grip rubber coated or something like that to go with his exisiting uppers. That along with the HK sights would be awesome maybe have a place to attach 1 rail towards the front of the grip! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I found this out about 4-5 years ago with a buddies S12, no offense but it was a Chaos rail so don't kid yourself that a better rail will solve the problem. Like I said then, I think the issue is the alignment of the gun more than the rail, the rail just stiffens the gun to the point that it won't flex enough to cycle properly. Don't kid yourself, a better quality rail well absolutely makes a difference. When FTE's happen after installing a rail system on your weapon it's because the percussion wave throughout the weapon has been altered. Meaning something has changed in the way the weapon reacts to the harmonics from the sonic forces traveling through the weapon. When a weapon starts to FTE after putting a rail on it's because something was close to failing (rubbing, binding) in the first place. In slow motion you can see how a weapon twist, bounces up, down and moves side to side. Better built rail can reduce or at very least give you a more solid platform but with just the right amount of movement, providing more stability and causing less added irregular shock wave patterns which can be hard if not impossible to counteract. Cheap rails are very thin, extruded from soft aluminum or cast thick to appear quality made. The thin rail with thin webbing will be unstable, causing irregular shock wave patterns, the cast rail will be way to stiff allowing for little movement causing binding, a good quality rail should be somewhere in between, right design, right material, and in all the right places. Quality does count! Kinda made my point, a less well made rail will allow the gun to flex more, a more solid rail will not allow the gun to flex as much and could amplify existing problems. Not a knock on your product at all, I attribute FTEs after a rail installation to a faulty gun not the rail in most cases. As I said previously my buddies rail was a Chaos and it had FTE problems much like the problems others have had with less well made rails. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
filthygovemploye 64 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 hm, very intriguing... where are these alleged slo mo vids? could you post a fave of yours so i know what ya mean? just ordereed a crap tastic version from m.a.a. today, but its goin on a sellin gun, not a keeping gun... FTNG!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bcrider 68 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Ninerider, that makes no sense. Your point is that the cheaper rails are better for the gun than the well made rail? That flies in the face of all logic. You are not taking into account other variables that come with the cheap rails such as clamping down on the gas tube. Bottom line is if you have been reading for a few years there have been far less complaints with the high quality rails than the shit beaters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have always been using a UTG quad rail. Once I profiled the bolt and hammer correctly, I never had an FTE. On or off, the rail never made any difference. I thought about getting a Chaos rail but I see no reason to change what works for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 hm, very intriguing... where are these alleged slo mo vids? could you post a fave of yours so i know what ya mean? just ordereed a crap tastic version from m.a.a. today, but its goin on a sellin gun, not a keeping gun... FTNG!!!! Check out this at 2:35, when he flips up his sights, nough said! http://www.youtube.com/embed/_Gq6jcFOCbc It only stops cause it hits the dust covers. lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have always been using a UTG quad rail. Once I profiled the bolt and hammer correctly, I never had an FTE. On or off, the rail never made any difference. I thought about getting a Chaos rail but I see no reason to change what works for me. After viewing the 2:35 area in the above video I would re-visit that thought of a Chaos rail, I mean, if you're really looking for sight stability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Cameron Hadley" data-cid="866438" data-time="1361376381"><p> <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="dgyver" data-cid="866429" data-time="1361374078"><p>I have always been using a UTG quad rail. Once I profiled the bolt and hammer correctly, I never had an FTE. On or off, the rail never made any difference. I thought about getting a Chaos rail but I see no reason to change what works for me.</p></blockquote> After viewing the 2:35 area in the above video I would re-visit that thought of a Chaos rail, I mean, if you're really looking for sight stability. </p></blockquote> Kind of tough when they are out of stock... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Remontti 2 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I have UTG rail and it didn't cause any troubles with my Saiga. I knew about the possible cycling problems but I did not have much of a choise when I chose the rail. Trying to get something from USA to Europe seems to be troublesome and expensive. Most stores do not deliver outside USA. Midway was selling UTG quad rails and that's why I chose it (Rusmilitary was of stock with those russian factory handguards with rail). Foregrip made shooting so much better that I'm very happy with the rails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Cameron Hadley" data-cid="866438" data-time="1361376381"><p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="dgyver" data-cid="866429" data-time="1361374078"><p>I have always been using a UTG quad rail. Once I profiled the bolt and hammer correctly, I never had an FTE. On or off, the rail never made any difference. I thought about getting a Chaos rail but I see no reason to change what works for me.</p></blockquote> After viewing the 2:35 area in the above video I would re-visit that thought of a Chaos rail, I mean, if you're really looking for sight stability. </p></blockquote> Kind of tough when they are out of stock... There out of stock for a reason..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 The "better rail" concept stills hold very little credibility with me. If is was true then only "quality" rails would work where the lesser rails would be the cause of failures. If it can only run with a "better rail", then there is something wrong with the gun. Mine runs great with a "lesser" quality rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bcrider 68 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 It's been beat to death on this forum that cheap rails can cause problems based on their design. Sometimes depending on the gun, they don't. Every gun is different, but there have been way more threads about the cheap ones causing problems than the more expensive ones. Don't give a shit to change minds. Just saying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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