DresNightfire 39 Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I stumbled upon a video from another overseas VEPR 12 owner as his polymer rail managed to break with his Eotech was mounted on it... (Please take into consideration the temperature of the environment which may have altered the integrity of the polymer rail, he also states this may have been a defective rail) Jump to 0:41... This is not a thread to start trashing the VEPR 12, I posted this, so VEPR 12 owners are aware of it, so we can possible come to a conclusion of what really happened and to decide on the solution for it... This may be a very good reason to have it replaced with the aluminum version from CSS... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) Well... this sucks... This is definitely an issue, but it is hard to ascertain how serious of an issue it is. This is only the second broke rail I have seen, and how many are out in the wild? Especially outside of the US. Some thoughts: The other Vepr I saw with a broke rail had the optic mounted way too for forward, this video, while mounted further back still seems like shells could catch it. Maybe all the way back? Maybe not. Its one of three things imo: 1) Rails are garbage and a lot more will be seen like this 2) Rails are for the most part gtg but there are some bad apples. How many? 3) Rails are gtg when used under specifications ie RDS placement and torque of RDS set screws. I can't but help wonder if both of these instances were from over torquing screws. As far as the CSS rail goes, it could be a problem solver, or could be an ever worse problem creator. Time will tell. I have not seen any design details or testing by CSS, third-party businesses like MAC or anyone for that matter, including Joe Schmoe on any random forum or blog/ newsletter. Not implying there is anything wrong with it, but I want to see a better handled launch of a product from a company and read some reviews before I go modding my firearm in that manner. Would like to hear PappaZorro's take on this... Edited March 31, 2013 by Muffman 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUNWIN 1 Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Tooth and nail could make one specifically for Mka 1919.....or any company.....i hope... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 I had the css rail put on mine. Will report results once I get it back. The rail design of the stock rig leaves alot to be desired. Even if only a few failures, it's entirely avoidable. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 The Izhmash Saiga 030 rail is machined steel. Not sure why Molot decided to use polymer. I'd expect more from the RPK factory considering everything else on the gun is heavy duty. It's a major design flaw. This isn't the first and certainly won't be the last VEPR 12 with this issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 The Izhmash Saiga 030 rail is machined steel. Not sure why Molot decided to use polymer. cost and manufacturing shortcut. you still have to machine the rail, which takes time, polymer; mold injected, pops out, ready to put on after a few trimmings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
papa_celms 2 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 (edited) I have an EOTECH on mine . Lets hope it doesn't self destruct too. Would that be covered under the lifetime warrany? I'd hope they would ship you a new rail before having you send it in though. Edited April 9, 2013 by papa_celms Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 11, 2013 Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted April 11, 2013 Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) Looks like you tightened the mount clamps too tight....just sayin. Thats a pretty clean break. Edited April 11, 2013 by Chevyman097 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
papa_celms 2 Posted April 11, 2013 Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable. I understand that and considered it. I just don't feel I should have to invest in a fix that shouldn't need fixing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40calpunisher 0 Posted April 11, 2013 Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable. I understand that and considered it. I just don't feel I should have to invest in a fix that shouldn't need fixing. I agree.. For the money we coughed up for these things, they should not have polymer rails that are canted and can break. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 11, 2013 Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) Looks like you tightened the mount clamps too tight....just sayin. Thats a pretty clean break. Don't blame the guy because the VEPR rail is a pos. Come on now. Just admit VEPR's have a design flaw. All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable. I understand that and considered it. I just don't feel I should have to invest in a fix that shouldn't need fixing. That's why I bought a Saiga. Edited April 11, 2013 by S12KS-K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero. That's why I bought a Saiga. In that case this is for you: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/forum/2-saiga-12/ It is link to get you to right section of forum, you have mistakenly entered the Vepr 12 thread. Is ok. Edited April 12, 2013 by Muffman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero. LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec? It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig.. Denial's a helluva drug.. Edited April 12, 2013 by S12KS-K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 If you guys put collective pressure on the importer(s), you can probably get them to import some 030 top covers with the steel rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) 1. So you know how to edit a post, but still double posted?2. Caps lock l-o-l, Jesus tap dancing, whatever a jig is, and references Chapelle show? I checked the link I posted, it works, why you not use?3. $1500? Most people in this thread, like me, paid $999. Also most people in this thread, like me, have a Vepr 12, or plan on getting a Vepr 12, unlike you... please refer to previous link for remedy4. I do not think that nor did I imply that. They engineered a metal one. Then to cut costs per management, engineers went back and designed polymer rail. In most cases you do not design for a specific torque, it is discovered in testing. If factory did not discover proper torque spec, then community will. Whether it be quantitative, or general layman specs.5. Saiga 12 does not cut corners? I thought you had thinner receiver meant for smaller caliber round and cast parts?6. Get mad? I laugh. You are the one trolling a thread for a shotgun you do not own. Shotgun envy? Please once again, refer to posted link to route to correct thread. Edited April 12, 2013 by Muffman 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero. LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec? It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig.. Denial's a helluva drug.. Its not rocket science. Over torquing a plastic rail will break it, especially when an optic mounted too far forward and the ejecting shells make contact with optic mount. My contacts in Russia state the Vepr can be ordered with an aluminum rail, but were not. It is what it is. No denial here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec?It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig.. Denial's a helluva drug.. Mine cost $995 ready to roll from the factory. Is that a Tapco buttstock and a Molot grip in your avatar and is yours from Legion? You really sound like a redneck douchebag bragging up Izhmash and trying ever so hard to dog on the V12. Reminds me of the clowns who talk shit about one brand of vehicle while touting another (ie; Ford vs. Chevy), as if they built it from scratch themselves. (I own a V12 and S12, so fugoff) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted April 12, 2013 Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I can appreciate the V-12 without having any love for the plastic rail. Have an S-12, Benelli M4, 870, KSG, MKA, etc as well. There is something about each I would change if I could. I know what I paid, and even at that price, there's really no good reason for a plastic rail IMO. I doubt anyone really *WANTS* a plastic rail over a metal one. These are going for ~1500 now, I think... might even be the new retail price. I think before any even were breaking this was predicted, not a surprise. It's not just the fact that it is plastic it is how thin the material is where it breaks..... Not the importers fault, but if you want it changed, you have to let them know. If you want plastic rails, tell 'em it's awesome. Anyway, that's all I will say about it. I put a metal one on mine.... EDIT: LOL, just realized I posted a picture of my V-12 with my new aluminium replacement rail with PLASTIC rails attached to the handguard. Have fun with that. Edited April 12, 2013 by ec4321 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 EC4321, Whats your thoughts and opinions about that CSS replacement rail? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 EC4321, Whats your thoughts and opinions about that CSS replacement rail? Im curious about this as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 Will report on it soon enough. Have to get it back in my hands, mount my eotech and go puts some rounds down range... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 Will report on it soon enough. Have to get it back in my hands, mount my eotech and go puts some rounds down range... Looking forward to reading about it. Would you cover the install and all that jazz as well? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 I had a Sierra Ordinance install it, the railed gas block, chop the barrel and perm install the brake - so Lee from S.O. may be able to talk about the details on the install of the rail. It comes with three screws, one larger than the other - apparently an analog to the larger rivet - and a roll pin. Hope to know more soon. There was another thread where folks wanted to know more about the CSS rail results, etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 I had a Sierra Ordinance install it, the railed gas block, chop the barrel and perm install the brake - so Lee from S.O. may be able to talk about the details on the install of the rail. It comes with three screws, one larger than the other - apparently an analog to the larger rivet - and a roll pin. Hope to know more soon. There was another thread where folks wanted to know more about the CSS rail results, etc... Cool. About the three screws, I was told by my Russian buddy Viktor, that the rail had to be riveted in a certain order. The biggest being the number 1, and the 3rd from the muzzle being the second rivet, and finally the middle. He told me that if they are not done in this order, then they will come out canted like we seen. I couldnt tell you though, on how true that is, but Id like to have an aluminum rail myself. But he also claims that they were most likely ordered with the rail we have. Its hard to say bros. I trust him, but even he cant say for certain, as the Molot boys wont come off of that info according to him. lol. I dont really mind it, as I know not to mount optics too close to the front, if I even run them at all. The rail really wasnt the selling point for me. I liked the hinged cover, magwell, factory pistol grip, RPK handguards, RPK sights and modified safety lever more than I did the railed dust cover IMO. Too me it was just icing on the cake. But still sad to see some of them fail. Its still a bad ass shottie, and I'd gladly pay more than what I did for it, after shooting it and seeing how well it performs with all the ammo I fed mine with zero failures. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 I agree El Capitan. The other big plus is all the serializing of parts. That detail to me is way up in the cool factor. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 I agree El Capitan. The other big plus is all the serializing of parts. That detail to me is way up in the cool factor. Yes. It was a cool surprise with my Vepr rifles, and when I seen it with this shotgun, it just screamed badassery. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thor's Hammer 33 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) It was probably a cheesy concession for importer pricing concerns. Perhaps the steel rail option is a $150+ upgrade? Who knows. I doubt it will affect me with the T1 and Kobra, but its not milspec in my opinion. Sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. Edited April 13, 2013 by Thor's Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 Not a deal breaker IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thor's Hammer 33 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 Not a deal breaker IMO. Certainly not. And a good opportunity for the aftermarket manufacturers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.