If S12s are declared DDs

[Gummerfan 0]

IF S12s are ever declared to be DDs (some say it'll never happen, some say it's just a matter of time) and their owners register them as such, would more customizing then be possible?

I mean if it's a registered DD, can the barrel be shorter than 18"? Will 922 and the parts count still apply?

Would owners be free to do more modification with fewer restrictions than at the present time?

[RDSWriter 5]

Beat the dead horse, beat the dead horse!!

 

Brief Answer...

 

First, I don't ever see the S12s in their imported configuration ever being declared DDs. They have been - and are currently - classified as sporting. This would break new ground as a potential configuration would be used to re-classify all sporting versions... this has never happened EVER. Even during the AWB, semiauto shotguns with detachable mags were considered sporting (albeit with limitations). Even today, the S12 (as imported) still complies with the expired AWB and all restrictive import regulations.

 

Also, the approval/importation of them differs significantly from the USAS and Striker/Streetsweeper situation. I'm not going to go into the details, but if you want to search this board there are a TON more details on this discussion.

 

To answer your question...

 

IF, IF, IF the reconfigured S12s are ever delcared DDs then you can do what you want... 922r doesn't apply nor does the barrel length matter. One note, you can't convert to FA.

[Gummerfan 0]

I'm not looking to open up the old "will they or won't they" issue.

Just wondering how it would change for the owners if it ever does happen.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Right now you can shorten the barrel under $18 inches and pay the NFA $200 SBS tax. If they were DDs, aren't there additional complications for dealers and buyers?

[Caspian 32]

IF an item is declared a DD, then there would be a grace period in which an individual would have to fill out paperwork and register their DD. If you were to drag your feet, then after the amnesty, your gun would be considered contraband and illegal.

 

The initial paperwork would not require LEO signoff NOR the $200 fee.

 

All subsequent transfers of the DD would require a LEO sign off (fingerprints, etc) and $200 transfer.

 

Caspian

Edited January 16, 2006 by Caspian

[raygun 0]

to answer some of Gummerfan's questions.

 

If things followed the streatsweeper incident.

 

 

As a DD, there would be no isue about barrel leanght, you could make it whatever you want.

 

if you are smart enough to make a conversion kt, you could convert a DD to any caliber you want, 40mm greanade, 20mm vulcan, 155 howitzer. (note, none of those caliber conversions would be possible, but by law they would all fallunder what could be done with a registered DD)

 

You could make an operational brief case for the DD.

 

922 parts count would not apply, 922 only applies to sporting arms. Once a weapon is on the NFA regisrty (a DD or SBR) is is no longer regulated as a sporting arm. That is the common opinion of people who own NFA weapon, but I do not have a specific Tech Branch of ATF letter to support that. It is based off of the sporting purpose language in the 89 AW import ban and the sporting purpose language in the NFA definition of DD.

 

In general, you would be able to do any modification you can dream up, as long as it does not become a machinegun.

 

The real problem will be finding people willing to do work on your weapon. no local gunsmith will be willing to touch a DD. Some C3's will be willing to do gunsmithing on them, but not all of them.

Just try looking around on the forsale boards and finding a replacement shoulderstock for a StreatSweeper and see how many you come across.

I know the Saiga uses alot of parts common to other weapons in the AK family, but the small restricted market of DD's will prevent many people from wanting to inovate new items for them.

 

 

 

In case anybody is questioning my knowledge base for the info in this post, I do have 5 NFA tax stamps.

In addition, I currently have a form 4 for a M-203 Destructive Device "pending" at the ATF.

That might not be very many NFA weapons, but I have done my basic homework on the subject.

Edited January 16, 2006 by raygun

[Integratedj 1]

The real problem will be finding people willing to do work on your weapon. no local gunsmith will be willing to touch a DD. Some C3's will be willing to do gunsmithing on them, but not all of them.

Just try looking around on the forsale boards and finding a replacement shoulderstock for a StreatSweeper and see how many you come across.

I know the Saiga uses alot of parts common to other weapons in the AK family, but the small restricted market of DD's will prevent many people from wanting to inovate new items for them.

 

 

Ok, I agree with you on everything you stated except this one. Where the hell do you love that gunsmiths don't want to make money?

Out here in Az they will work on anything and everything. Every smith I know of here that I use is either a Class2 or 3 guy.

 

 

I think that the S12 would be a little different any way seeing as most of the parts people will want are standard AK parts. only thin that will be harder to get is Bolt assemblies and carriers.

 

Personally I am not worried about it going DD. I don't ever want it to, but if it does it does and there is not much we can do after the fact to change it back.

[raygun 0]

Ok, I agree with you on everything you stated except this one. Where the hell do you love that gunsmiths don't want to make money?

Out here in Az they will work on anything and everything. Every smith I know of here that I use is either a Class2 or 3 guy.

 

Around here (Southern Maryland) I have to drive about 90min-2 hours to get to a SOT3 or SOT7.

If your local gunsmiths are knowledgeable SOT payers, then your lucky.

 

Leagaly, a simple Title 1 FFL dealer or FFL gunsmith can do the work, but as a practicle matter, most of them don't know the rules on dealing with NFA, and feel somewhat uncomfortable about dealing with it.

 

When I said that "no" gunsmiths would touch it, I may have been overstating things, but it has been my experience that when dealing with NFA weapons, anybody who isn't a SOT doesn't want anything to do with it.

[expeditionx 1]

If you have a tax stamp NFA shotgun is there annual fees?

If you move to another residence how long do you have to update your

current registration 30 days, 60 days ?

Is there a public list of registration holders available to anyone? I would hate

it if USA Today published a list of such as some news papers have of concealed

carry permit holders.

Edited January 17, 2006 by expeditionx

[RDSWriter 5]

Expeditionx:

 

All taxes are for transfer or manufacture... It's tax information so it is not public. Statistics are public, but not individual records. No federal taxes or fees on an annual basis for ownership... although some communist states may require registration and an annual fee.

 

For DDs you must submit a Form 5320.20? to the ATF prior to taking the firearm to another state - EVER. If you are taking it on vacation or to some shooting event out of state, you need sign-off prior to taking it and must state the dates. If you are moving, you need sign-off prior to taking it and indicate that you are permanently moving. Basically, you can't take it across state lines without signed authorization as a non-SOT.

 

Quick question, what newspapers have published a list of CCL holders and what state did they publish?

[expeditionx 1]

Expeditionx:

 

All taxes are for transfer or manufacture... It's tax information so it is not public. Statistics are public, but not individual records. No federal taxes or fees on an annual basis for ownership... although some communist states may require registration and an annual fee.

 

For DDs you must submit a Form 5320.20? to the ATF prior to taking the firearm to another state - EVER. If you are taking it on vacation or to some shooting event out of state, you need sign-off prior to taking it and must state the dates. If you are moving, you need sign-off prior to taking it and indicate that you are permanently moving. Basically, you can't take it across state lines without signed authorization as a non-SOT.

 

Quick question, what newspapers have published a list of CCL holders and what state did they publish?

I know for sure a west palm beach paper did cant remember the name.

And ive seen threads to a few others at Glock talk.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec05/376807.asp

http://www.boycottwatch.org/misc/OhioCCW01.htm

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/documents/r...-2-20-2000/html

Edited January 17, 2006 by expeditionx

[topmaul 42]

Just stop worrying about it

[RDSWriter 5]

Thanks for the links... I was just curious.

 

I would be more worried if names were published and I was not on the CCL list. Think about it, if you're a criminal and want to target someone or someones... pick someone not on the list when they are not at home.

Edited January 17, 2006 by RDSWriter

[expeditionx 1]

"If the Plain Dealer publishes the list of permit holders, I will publish a list of plain dealer reporters and their home addresses" said a gun owner and concealed carry permit advocate who prefers to remain anonymous. "The plain dealer wants to intimidate people from engaging in a legal activity. It is like obtaining a list of gay public school teachers and publishing it in order to intimidate them."

 

From the second link I provided. Thats funny. I too would love to publish a list of anti-gun reporters, their homes, and maps to it. Their job is to be objective by entering a fight against gun owners they just crossed the ethical line. I guess starting with the Brady Center CEO on down would be a great publishing project.

[G O B 3,516]

The newspapers that puplish CCW holder's names and addresses should be sued for aiding and abetting for every break in commited after they puplish. We should tell them that it is our intenion to so They may be whores that will do any underhanded thing to gain noteriety (it builds circulation) but if it means they may have to SPEND money it is a different story!

 

G O B

Edited January 18, 2006 by G O B

[icarus 3]

Expeditionx:

 

All taxes are for transfer or manufacture... It's tax information so it is not public. Statistics are public, but not individual records. No federal taxes or fees on an annual basis for ownership... although some communist states may require registration and an annual fee.

 

I don't know about firearms taxes..... but alot of tax info is public record. IE all your property tax info, who your mortgage is with and it's balance. The CCWs (at least for Az) are linked to your drivers lic. which just about anyone could look up.

[raygun 0]

I don't know about firearms taxes..... but alot of tax info is public record. IE all your property tax info, who your mortgage is with and it's balance. The CCWs (at least for Az) are linked to your drivers lic. which just about anyone could look up.

 

NFA excise TAX is treated the same as far as your IRS payroll tax information.

Not for public review, nor is it to be shared with otehr federal agencies except with a warent.

 

That being said, if your state or local laws require some form of registration or permt, that state/local information may be public domain information, but not the federal TAX form.

[Snoopdogg 0]

I didn't read past the first post, so this may be redundant. Here are some possibilities.

 

Siaga is a sporting shotgun.

An 'AK' converted Saiga ain't got nothing to do with sporting and is too bad ass for the beaurocrates. Especially with an 8 or 10rd mag hanging out of it.

I think a possibility is the AK'd Saigas will possibly get hit with an NFA pedigree, while the unmodified ones will go free.

 

In regards to the drums, I agree with the mods, a drum will be the biggest DD catalyst of all.

Eventually someone will wind up making them, I hope they are prepared to register their personal Saigas with BATF a short time later.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Thanks for the links... I was just curious.

 

I would be more worried if names were published and I was not on the CCL list. Think about it, if you're a criminal and want to target someone or someones... pick someone not on the list when they are not at home.

 

 

Thanks for the idea.

 

 

 

Hey?!?!

 

Didn't you piss me off once on this forum?!?!?

 

 

LOL

 

and you!!! didn't you............????

[TacticalResponse 0]

It really doesn't matter guys wether it's a DD or considered a sporting firearm. Sooner or later the left wing is going to get back into the oval office back. Then you can kiss all of your guns goodbye. I don't mean to be pessimistic. I grew up in California and saw the AWB passed. Everyone said before it was passed

that it would cause people to take up arms, so they wouldn't dare ever do it. All I that I ever heard after it was passed in the state senate was a wimper. In 1994 I was renting a large section of tables in a Phoenix gun show when the crime bill was about to be voted on. It was the #1 topic of the show. I told everyone that I talked to that it was going to pass. Left wing anti-gun congress? Of course it was. Everyone said before it passed that they wouldn't dare ever do it because people would take up arms. Didn't I here this in California 8 years prior? Around 1980 In California while watching the 5 oclock news I saw that while sherriff's were investigating a domestic complaint an arsenal was found in a mans house. They had placed all of the mans guns on his front lawn for the news crews to film. The number of guns that he owned was not illegal. He was allowed to own firearms. There were no illegal firearms found. But still it was called an (ARSENAL) by the Sherriff's and the local news team. His face was plastered all across television. Over the years this became a weekly occurance in California. In Phoenix for the first time shortly before Christmas of 2005 the Maricopa sherriff's department discovered an (ARSENAL) at a mans house. OH MY GOD NOT THIS AGAIN! Now I have to leave Arizona? where does this crap end? when do people start standing up for their Constitutional rights? Monday AL Gore was talking about George Bush destroying our Constitution? Wait, hmmm...... wasn't it AL Gore in his 2000 campaign speeches that was saying our Constitution was outmoded and that we needed to hold a Constitutional convention to write a new one? Reality check please. Deception is at an all time high. The left wing is working 48 hours a day and 8 days a week to take away our Bill of Rights. Our Constitution. GOD, State rights and our free market system. I'm not a Democrat or a Republican but most of the time I have been voting Republican because they are not pushing a leftist agenda and trying to deceive everyone like the left wing is just so that they can be voted into office. If a new party comes along that is more in tune with the thoughts and ideals of our founding fathers and can defeat both parties they'll have my vote. Until then I'm not going to vote into office an anti-gun left wing tyranny just because I don't approve of everything George Bush says or does.

Edited January 19, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Steph 5]

You can blame the "government" or the "liberals" or "leftists", but I believe the average American would just as soon see guns go away; certainly the type of guns that are designed to efficiently kill people. They buy into the myth that the only guns the average citizen should have should be for hunting or target shooting, and think only cops and soldiers should be making life and death decisions, as though they are somehow transformed by their training into a more wise and moral being. They have been so emasculated by their easy life of technology, warmth, security, and gratification that they can't conceive of a world where they have to fight for rights, safety, and food. I have many gun-owning aquaintences who see no problem with making 'assault' type weapons illegal. "What do you need a gun like that for?" is an oft-heard comment. It would be great if they were right, I've seen enough humans and history that I don't think so. I'd laugh if I didn't have such a heavy heart about it. I am not a republican or democrat, frankly I don't see much difference between them; but I find things to revile and admire at both ends of the political spectrum; but I usually end up voting for Libertarian candidates, because they are the only ones that do believe in individual rights.

[TacticalResponse 0]

You can blame the "government" or the "liberals" or "leftists", but I believe the average American would just as soon see guns go away; certainly the type of guns that are designed to efficiently kill people. They buy into the myth that the only guns the average citizen should have should be for hunting or target shooting, and think only cops and soldiers should be making life and death decisions, as though they are somehow transformed by their training into a more wise and moral being. They have been so emasculated by their easy life of technology, warmth, security, and gratification that they can't conceive of a world where they have to fight for rights, safety, and food. I have many gun-owning aquaintences who see no problem with making 'assault' type weapons illegal. "What do you need a gun like that for?" is an oft-heard comment. It would be great if they were right, I've seen enough humans and history that I don't think so. I'd laugh if I didn't have such a heavy heart about it. I am not a republican or democrat, frankly I don't see much difference between them; but I find things to revile and admire at both ends of the political spectrum; but I usually end up voting for Libertarian candidates, because they are the only ones that do believe in individual rights.

 

 

The average person has lost site of the importance of the bill of rights. The left wing media has made gun owners out to be nuts and anti- social right wingers. We lose the second Amendment and we lose the entire bill of rights. Franklin Roosevelt in 1934 (Americas first left wing president) had the National Firearms act passed. This was Americas first true taste of gun control. His excuse for passing it? Gangsters were outgunning Law Enforcement with machine guns. The 1968 Gun Control Act passed they say because of the assasination of John F. Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr and Senator Robert Kennedy. I, and a lot of other pro gun advocats saw this one coming. It was signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson. A Democrat. These are the two major anti-gun laws of the 20th century than began the destruction of our second amendment. If you look at the 13 anti-gun states you will find that almost all of the gun control laws were initiated by the left wing. We have a terrible culture war going on in this country right now. Political scientist are wondering when it will turn violent not "If". I advocate that america devide into two seperate nations to avoid bloodshed. A civil war in America would destroy it. Years ago I would have called myself the most unpatrotic person in America to even suggest such an event take place. Now I see no choice. At least half of us will be able to keep our freedoms. Ok I'll get off of my soap box now. The complacency over gun rights in America really gets be going.

Edited January 19, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Steph 5]

How about if we have the anti-gun faction, and the pro-gun faction fight it out in the streets?

Edited January 19, 2006 by -S.

[TacticalResponse 0]

How about if we have the anti-gun faction, and the pro-gun faction fight it out in the streets?

 

 

 

Wouldn't work. They would just stand there screaming deceptive left wing anti-gun propagandist insults. Hillary Clinton of course would be there yelling gun owners are are the same as slave and plantation owners.

Edited January 20, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Wolverine 10,360]

How about if we have the anti-gun faction, and the pro-gun faction fight it out in the streets?

 

 

 

Wouldn't work. They would just stand there screaming deceptive left wing anti-gun propagandist insults. Hillary Clinton of course would be there yelling gun owners are are the same as slave and plantation owners.

 

[Steph 5]

How about if we have the anti-gun faction, and the pro-gun faction fight it out in the streets?

 

 

 

Wouldn't work. They would just stand there screaming deceptive left wing anti-gun propagandist insults. Hillary Clinton of course would be there yelling gun owners are are the same as slave and plantation owners.

 

It would work for me! All this training, all these nice guns... and I never get to shoot anyone.

[G O B 3,516]

DANGER Diane Fineswine has a CCW!

 

 

 

 

G O B

[icarus 3]

[

 

NFA excise TAX is treated the same as far as your IRS payroll tax information.

Not for public review, nor is it to be shared with otehr federal agencies except with a warent.

 

That being said, if your state or local laws require some form of registration or permt, that state/local information may be public domain information, but not the federal TAX form.

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

I have to agree with tactical. The average AmeriKan isn't too concerned with their rights (or lack there of), especially when it comes to guns.

[StarLynx 0]

DANGER Diane Fineswine has a CCW!

 

 

 

G O B

 

I agree with GOB & S

it always seems to amaze gunbrabbers that I have had conversations/debates with ...to find out that the Fattest political dimwitted antigun people are always heavily armed or guarded...Hell..Hillary even brings her SS Crew out on the Senate floor..Other Senators complained because they were a bit "INTIMIDATING"

It also seems a bit Crappy to think that our taxes pay for it....I just wonder how many of that SS crew would really take a bullet for her...

[scoutjoe 276]

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 20 2006, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DANGER Diane Fineswine has a CCW!

 

 

 

 

G O B

 

 

so is that her nickname for it or yours?