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New letter on the SIG Brace...

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Sig braces with a buffer tube were selling for just under 200.00 

 

were people just so impatient they wouldn't spend the same 200.00 on a tax stamp, and have any stock they wanted?

 

People only got these to try to circumvent NFA laws........thats what I meant by cheating

Well, I purchased mine for use as a pistol. My buddy has the use of only one arm and can't afford a toy pistol. So, I purchased one and he can use it. I also intend to shoot it with the Wounded Warriors when they are out here on skiing trips this winter. There are many people who wanted to shoot and have only one arm. This is what it was designed for. It is a pistol brace designed by a veteran for other veterans who want to shoot and have one good arm. Fuck everybody else who brought undue attention to this piece of fucking rubber and ruined it for people who need it to shoot pistols. It makes shooting a pistol of this size fun as hell and that's all that matters to combat wounded veterans who gave it all so fuck stains can ruin their fun.

 

 

First off, and this is a big leap for some I know, who the hell wants to register a weapon?

Havent we fought tooth and nail against the entire idea for decades.

The only cheating going on here is Congress cheating the document that created it.

 

We can hope to get the NFA repealed, dont ask me what I think the odds are but it is possible.

Until then good on anyone that circumvents that pos illegal legislation.

 

Secondly that brace was designed to do a job for any one that wanted it for any reason. USgov is the shit stain here.

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Now that the new congress folk are sworn in...yep, rime to start writing letters.

 

Not sure if the NFA should be gone after piecemeal or whole hog though...

 

 

The first step should be surpressors I think though. They are legal for hunting in 34 states at last count, protect hearing and help keep noise complaints down. The NFA is an unnecessary roadblock and with their administrative time burden of 6-9 months, we could save them a substantial amount of paperwork...

 

Then after that, SBR and SBS...

 

I just don't think that they would bite if we tried to get it all repealed at once.

Edited by jwulf

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Maybe someone else has some hope for sanity in DC, I have none so may as well stand on the right and draw a line at each and every incursion and infringement. At least then you know the ground and cant be misled. 

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well...when you intend to cheat.....dont be surprised when you get caught

 

It ain't cheating if it fits the current rules, & the refs say it's OK. Changing the rules after the fact is the actual cheating.

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well...when you intend to cheat.....dont be surprised when you get caught

 

It ain't cheating if it fits the current rules, & the refs say it's OK. Changing the rules after the fact is the actual cheating.

 

 

 

Ask any gun owning NYer.

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FYI guys, quit calling this a "ruling". It is an "open letter" not a ruling. A ruling comes from a court in response to a contested hearing. BATF is an admin agency, which does not have that kind of authority. What they have done is simply taken away an affirmative defense that they were giving a few months ago. 

 

This letter doesn't give them a very good position to be "used as a sword", it merely eliminates reliance on prior letters as a "sheild." But acts on the prior letters before this came out should still be protected, if I understand things correctly.

 

If this ever becomes a criminal trial issue BATF would still have to argue their position before a court and would still look extremely embarrassingly inconsistent. They closed the floodgates, but a lot of water got through and they still look pretty dumb.

 

If you have any real need to consider these things, hire a lawyer who works with administrative law and 'official reliance' based defenses evaluate your position, or the actions you are proposing to take.

Edited by GunFun

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Point understood GF, but it my mind, it doesn't matter if the term ruling or open letter is used. Regardless of what the BATF calls it, it is still making law, when they have zero authority to do so. However in their minds, this open letter now gives them the authority to prosecute if one is caught shouldering.

 

Everyone wants to see this challenged, and how the government would make its case on such weak standing. However nobody wants their name to be the one after "The US Government versus......."

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Point understood GF, but it my mind, it doesn't matter if the term ruling or open letter is used. Regardless of what the BATF calls it, it is still making law, when they have zero authority to do so. However in their minds, this open letter now gives them the authority to prosecute if one is caught shouldering.

 

Everyone wants to see this challenged, and how the government would make its case on such weak standing. However nobody wants their name to be the one after "The US Government versus......."

And that is why I just pay the tax stamp

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How would we go about trying to dismantle the NFA? Would writing letters get us anywhere, or would it be better to get an established group in on the deal and go from there? Use their "bit by bit" tactic against them.

Starting with suppressors would probably be the most viable route. Then, move on to SBR/SBS.

 

If someone knowledgeable enough is willing to draft a letter, we could print, mail, and email to everyone possible so they could mail it too.

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How would we go about trying to dismantle the NFA? 

 

Swing public opinion. That happens only when most people have some positive personal experience with firearms which illustrates the absurdity of NFA logic. Hence my support of people getting stamps, slide fires, sig braces, and all of that. When you realize the guy from work who seems ok has had of these for years without harming anyone it's not a big deal anymore. When he takes you out on a Saturday and you find out how fun it is, then he or she is an inch away from voting.

 

I think the cultural experience is swinging our way. And as much as some crotchety old guys here will hate this, the video game stuff helps almost as much as anything.

 

It's a critical mass thing. Once public opinion swings, legislation is like an avalanche. much like how we got here in the first place.

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How would we go about trying to dismantle the NFA? 

 

Swing public opinion. That happens only when most people have some positive personal experience with firearms which illustrates the absurdity of NFA logic. Hence my support of people getting stamps, slide fires, sig braces, and all of that. When you realize the guy from work who seems ok has had of these for years without harming anyone it's not a big deal anymore. When he takes you out on a Saturday and you find out how fun it is, then he or she is an inch away from voting.

 

I think the cultural experience is swinging our way. And as much as some crotchety old guys here will hate this, the video game stuff helps almost as much as anything.

 

It's a critical mass thing. Once public opinion swings, legislation is like an avalanche. much like how we got here in the first place.

 

 

Then explain the existence of BOcare.

The public was overwhelmingly opposed to it yet there it is in all its glory.

For that matter there was no real outcry for the NFA when it was passed. It only was held up in court due to plaintiffs not showing up for court, one due to death IIRC the other in jail and the lawyer not having the funds to carry on.

For that matter most of the American electorate were opposed to starting any more wars in Asia back in 64. 

 

As much as it would be grand if what you said were indeed true, sometimes it is true but in those cases its my bet the matter is deferred for later efforts.

 

We, the American people, aint running this country and havent for a long time if ever.

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Ok...if you shoulder the pistol, it's suddenly an sbr. If you don't it remains a pistol. So....does possessing working elbows which allow you to shoulder the gun equal constructive intent?

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^^^Nope, they're here for their $200 that they finally realized the fucked themselves out of with the initial stance. Once the NFA Genie was let out of the bottle it's not going back without a fight. Unless you live in a non NFA state I'd just stamped up and put a stock on your SBR. If you live in a gun unfriendly state your best chance in my mind is to get the state laws changed as it's the smaller fight. Shit, stoners are doing it state by state with marijuana laws, I'd bet gun owners out number daily pot smokers 10:1.

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Stoners are not politically incorrect

 

 

Except for the Eugene kind

According to most every conservative I know, they are...

 

But back on topic at hand. Would sending letters to every rep we can find an address for help us in dismantling the NFA, piece by piece. If nothing else, it's unconstitutional in my opinion.

Edited by dayofruin

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Considering the possibility that the NFA was passed to keep us somewhat under armed at a time when revolt was a real concern for certain factions I highly doubt it but its your time.

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But back on topic at hand. Would sending letters to every rep we can find an address for help us in dismantling the NFA, piece by piece. If nothing else, it's unconstitutional in my opinion.

 

 

EVERY reps address is available on-line. Every single one.

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The interpretation is based on intent when you build your weapon system. If your intent is to manufacture a pistol with a wrist brace then that is what it is. My intent was to build a pistol. I shot it from my shoulder once in a awile. My intent was still to build a pistol. How the H$ck can BATF prove my intent was otherwise? I have SBR's. THe advantage is as a truck/car gun that can go across state lines without all the paperwork.Additionally, I don't want to use a stamped weapon in self-defense. JMHO If you go to the gorilla and say "Can I use a wrist brace to build and SBR" what do you expect them to say? Nothing has changed in my opinion.

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All thats gonna do is piss them off but good and they will just make the brace 100% unlawful to have on a pistol.

Bad move by Sig, I think we all know that there is no winning a law war with the ATF.

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It's going to force BATF to start being consistent in their logic by courts. If you look at the other lawsuits sig has done, that is clearly a goal. The rifle with a brake which would work as an obvious suppressor core is built for exactly that purpose.

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^^^Nope, they're here for their $200 that they finally realized the fucked themselves out of with the initial stance. Once the NFA Genie was let out of the bottle it's not going back without a fight. Unless you live in a non NFA state I'd just stamped up and put a stock on your SBR. If you live in a gun unfriendly state your best chance in my mind is to get the state laws changed as it's the smaller fight. Shit, stoners are doing it state by state with marijuana laws, I'd bet gun owners out number daily pot smokers 10:1.

Its not about the money

 

There were 9,400 NFA stamps issued in 2013. Do the math. It is chump change. Even if you added 10,000 arm brace stamps it is nothing. The ATF 2015 budget is 1.2 Billion dollars., a 22 million $ increase over 2014 budget.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default.../12/13/atf.pdf

All the stamps would not even cover the increase. I think the entire gun related revenue of SOT and other licenses was 44 million +/-. A blip on the screen.

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All thats gonna do is piss them off but good and they will just make the brace 100% unlawful to have on a pistol.

Bad move by Sig, I think we all know that there is no winning a law war with the ATF.

 

Ok that wins the Gottlieb Award.

 

Good, lets piss them more, a lot more.

Make em so mad they make huge honking mistakes and over reach.

It a valid move and it works.

 

Do not play by their rules. 

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This is playing out just like the akins accelerator.  They got the 22lr version approved and started selling them.  When they made an AK one then it was all OH SNAP THATS A MACHINE GUN!  The brace was a way around a problem and the government does not like being outsmarted (though its rather easy at times) so they change the rules.

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What about those who have been shouldering pistol tubes all these years?  Clearly they have "redesigned" the tube into a stock and they are criminals.

 

And what if I build a pistol with a stock but I strap the stock to my arm?  Haven't I "redesigned" it into a pistol brace?

 

And what if I never fire it, but only wear it on my head?  Haven't I "redesigned" it into a hat?

Possession of an unregistered Short-Barreled Hat is a Class D felony.

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