How does ATF look at fabricated/retro fit parts?

[6500rpm 670]

First let me start off by saying no matter what the outcome is, I'm 922r compliant but in the past I've wondered how ATF would look at parts that are made, or fabricated in part by forign made stuff. For example I'll use the stock I fabricated from Galil/R4 parts, stuff I made, and a U.S. part.

 

Stock Body-Galil, Has had length removed from tubes and the recoil pad/rear of stock cut off and a U.S.

made ACE 1" pad installed.

Knuckle-R4, Has had the receiver mounting end cut off and was welded to a receiver block that I fabricted in

in a mill.

 

So is it a compliance part, or not countable? Boards been too quiet anyway so what do you think.

[1Andy2 5]

How does the law define a "US-made" part?

 

If it doesn't give a definition, anything posted here will be pure speculation.

[762minigun 1]

I would guess that it would not be considered a U.S. made unit.

[vjor 2]

Bro I will say that anything any one say here will be pure speculation,

that thing has USA made parts and imported into it, well the only

way will be to call ATF and ask, if installing pieces American made

will change it into American made piece.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

From everthing I've read on the subject, if it's got any foreign material in it that was imported as part of it then it's still considered foreign. For instance, you can't take an imported AK trigger and cut the actual trigger off it and replace with a modified US rifle trigger, and then call it US made. If they ever wanted to check it to be sure they could melt it down and tell by it's composition whether or not all the steel came from the US.

[beerslurpy 1]

That's such bullshit. A huge portion of the steel in this country comes from china and japan right now. The origin of the raw material is irrelevant. The "making" of the part is the important step- at what point did it become the part it is now? If you use part of a russian trigger to make a new, different trigger, you have made a US part- you unmade the foreign part and then used the pieces to make a new US part.

 

The only time this doesnt hold true is if you:

-take a foreign part and modify it in such a way that it doesnt make transition from "non-part" to "part" in the US- refinishing a foreign stock for example.

-split up a foreign part and use it to reassemble a new domestic part if ATF regs count the part as multiple separate parts- for example a magazine isnt domestically or foreign made- the floorpate, body and follower are domestic or foreign themselves. You could replace the floorplate and follower with US parts and it would become 2/3rds domestic.

 

Unfortunately, my rant is just an unprovable opinion since no one has ever had to defend against a 922® related charge in court (that I can find). There is zero caselaw relating to this question. Actually, I'll check lexisnexis, hold on.

[beerslurpy 1]

Ok, I found one case, where a guy sued after having his FFL application turned down for previously committing various violations, one of which was putting non-sporting features (a bayonet) on an SKS, which consists entirely of unequivocably imported parts.

 

Trader Vic's Ltd v. O'Neill, 169 F. Supp. 2d 957 (O'Neill was sued in his capacity as sec of treasury in 2001)

[Gummerfan 0]

I'm pretty sure that "once foreign=always foreign".

Take an imported stock or handguard, whittle it down to almost nothing, then build it back up, even to a different configuration, and it's still not US made.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Just to gum up the thought processes. Vector Arms takes imported HK parts and assembles them to a US made receiver and they have made an American Made Firearm. Perfectly legal. Perhaps the key lies in the country of origin of the receiver.

[Wakal 10]

Since the BATFE is on record as stating that drilling a hole in a receiver constitutes "manufacturing" a receiver, and that a gunsmith rebuilding an existing gun is "manufacturing" a new gun, I think the rules are...whatever the hell they try to push THIS time.

 

Speaking as a gunsmith who primarily builds decent guns tuned to customer's specifications out of manufacturer's mass-produced crap (and I mean Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Bushmaster, DPMS, Springfield Armory, etc), that second line of reasoning scares me. There is no statue of limitations on "taxes", and the BATFE is framing that anti-gunsmith issue as a "tax" thing. Remember that the rest of the government couldn't pin anything on Capone, but the tax boys did...

 

 

 

 

Alex

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well you can call bullshit all you want beerslurpy. If you ask me that question all I can do is relay what I've read and I have been a member of all the most popular AK forums for several years. Why don't you take your comment and sit on it til you have done like I have and asked the same damned question to more experienced AK builders on other gun forums. Like was said before, it's mostly speculation anyway.

Facts are facts though, once foreign, always foreign. If you cobble a us made PG onto a Romy AK lower HG and try to call it a US made Romy VFG clone you are full of shit. It's still a Romy HG all day long. Take a Chinese thumbhole Mak 90 stock and cut the middle out to make it a separate PG. You have altered it but it's still Chinese lumber just like the Romy is Romy wood = Romy part & Chinese part. What part of that don't you understand? The steel in the trigger is no different. I just used that as an example. Who would go to all that trouble anyway?

[Conju 2]

How about emailing or mailing the ATF and getting it in writing FROM THEM, THE AUTHORITY, whether it is considered US or not?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yeah good idea. Don't forget to post the results here.

I'm no authority on that or mag capacity laws but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

[beerslurpy 1]

You are misunderstanding my post.

 

-origin of raw materials is irrelevant. US firearms are made with foreign raw materials all the time. You think when Ruger orders 10,000 steel billets from a warehouse they check to make sure they are all US steel? You think US steel manufacturers ensure that they only use US iron ore?

 

-if you "make" a 922® part in this country, it is a US made 922® part, regardless of where the raw material came from. As long as the raw materials ceased to be a 922® part at some point prior to being "made" it isnt an imported part. Sawing out the thumbhole in a chinese stock isnt a making- it was already a stock before it entered the country and it never ceased being a stock at any time.

 

-place at which a "part" was made is irrelevant unless it is a 922® part. You can put a US made PG on a foreign gun and the 922® parts inside are still foreign.

 

Any ATF ruling contrary to this conflicts with a reasonable construction of the statute. Unless the statute specially defined "import" or "make," they have to use ordinary english uses of the words. Something doesnt become "imported" the second it uses one bit of raw material from outside the country. That sounds very much like the definition of "interstate commerce" and is not a standard way of reading statutes.

[okie shooter 0]

Edited December 4, 2006 by okie shooter

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I understand your point. Yes origin of raw materials is irrelevent. Just like stated above, my point is if it's an imported "922r part" to begin with there is nothing you can do to it to make it US made.

[drooling idiot 1]

if you take a widget from an imported gun , then alter it in such a way that it increases its retail value by a certain % that i can't remember then that part is considered re-manufactured & " made in the U.S.A. " . The code for this is under commerce not firearms as it applies to anything imported.

 

OR

 

you take a widget from an imported gun , then alter it in such a way that it no longer functions as designed in its original gun then that part is considered re-manufactured & " made in the U.S.A. " not sure where this falls under in the legal code.

[6500rpm 670]

Shit, looks like the board jackass strikes again. Sorry if I got you guys worked up, this was supposed to be just a fun bullshit thread for pure speculation for people to have fun with. With stuff like this I never leave myself without a marigin of error so I make sure my guns compliant regardless. That's not to say that I haven't wondered where the line is drawn, could just come down to the attitude of the people your dealing with on any particular day. If you surf the boards, there is a lot of odd stuff being built out there, I've also found things like floor plates and followers for 7.62's that are sold as U.S. made compliance parts, but aren't marked as such anywhere??? How'd you like to be called out on that one.

As far as I'm concerned, you can kill this thread, was more or less a tin foil hat for fun thing, make posts like "unobtanium" for fun, or give me a good ol fashion ass whoopin for starting it. Whatever you do, don't take it too seriously, it's all speculation.............that's what makes it entertaining.

[vjor 2]

Well looking at your pics I will say that butt stock came out good, damn bro

post a nice pic of th beast, with the block you made, you know I am a fan

of skeleton stocks. if you decide to get rid of it, well you know who to send a pm.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Nonsense man. There's nothing at all wrong with a little speculative discussion unless someone starts hollerin' bullshit. I'll always try to share the most up to date info I can around here. I don't just make the shit up, it comes from lots of research. If people would just learn to be a little more polite it would make things go so much more smooth around here. You had a valid question and I've seen it asked before on other forums as well as asking it myself. I was only sharing what I was told. I want to learn everything there is to know about all this shit. The only way is by asking and discussing.

[cscharlie 107]

That stock looks tough!

 

I think that we all realize how uncle BATF likes to make the rules as he goes along.

 

I would think that it comes down to the question of is this something that you manufactured/remanufactured or not.

[kmoore 3]

Allow me to recap ..... Cumbayah, and group hugs ... encouraged (sorry couldn't resist).

 

One theory is that a part is always a part, unless completely destroyed (melted down). So you can't take a wood stock, sand a ridge somewhere (or any alteration) and call it manufactured. Can't take a trigger, cut and replace part, and call it new (steel of origin given more as a way for ATF to prove that you had started with a foriegn part, if it matches steel composition from a known foreign manufacture .... ).

 

One theory is that you CAN modify a part and call it domestic, if you increase it's value significantly.

 

One theory is that you CAN modify a part and call it domestic, if you change the part so that it doesn not work where originally intended. I don't know of many good examples. Pretend you can take an AK trigger and make it work in a FAL..... I believe we saw part of this during the AWB. Hicaps made post 1994 were banned, and if you took a mag from a beretta, cut a new notch in it so it fit an XD, you had NOT manufactured a mag (and weren't post 1994) UNLESS it ceased to work in the beretta. If it no longer worked in original firearm it was made for, you had manufactured a mag ...

 

If any wants to prove any of the above, it would likely take research and/or a letter from the ATF.

 

That about right?

 

Oh yeah, 6500rpm likes to poke at hornets nests ......

 

Ban Him!!!!! lolololololololololololol

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I think I read somewhere (famous last words) that the criteria is whether it functions as the smae part. For example, say I take a CETME stock and mod it to fit an AK - it would still be a foreign stock. But say I take a buttstock (not a t-hole) and make a grip out of the core section, presumably using it as a cheap source of exotic wood, then it would be US made. Basically treating the stock like a block of wood. I don't see how any metal parts could be successufully used that way.

[G O B 3,516]

I could think up a couple, ------FRANKEN parts. Everyone add your wierdness to the list!

 

1. Gaspiston=bolt handle.

2. Trigger=mag release, to look like set triggers.

3. ???

[TheGunHustler 3]

I think the end of a gas piston would make a great bolt knob. it would look wild i think i might try it....

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Frankinparts lol! Ok how about a set of ghost ring sights made out of choke tubes?

Oh nevermind, those aren't compliance parts...duh.

[G O B 3,516]

3. 5.56 muzzlebrake= ghostring sights.

4. Pistolgrip=front pistolgrip.

5. ???