Akkid 0 Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 What is the reliability of keeping your mags loaded and ready to go? Everything I have read says that it will cause malfunctions as the plastic hull of the shell will deform. Any way to keep this from happening, like downloading the magazine a shell or two, or relieving part of the bolt for extra clearance. This is the single issue that has thus prevented me from getting a S12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Both of those things, downloading and relieving the bolt some will help. Also the kind of ammo you use greatly effects it. Some like the S&B 00 buck and the el cheapo winchester shotshells have very thin hulls and will deform worse than others. I've even heard of the red winchesters breaking open and spilling shot into thee mag . Here's a pic taken by one of our older members of his bolt mod to help with this and with easier loading on a closed bolt. Grind at your own risk. He obtained a spare bolt to do this mod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Good inf Cobra. Here's another IF youm use S&B ammo as I do (12 pellet counrt as opposed to 9), you will notice that the deformation of the S&B is much worse than with standard 9-count OO buck. My solution is to have a standard buck round on top, which has a rim that will stand up to pressure and resist deformation much better than S&B alone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I did some testing with the 5 rd mags loaded in the gun. The S&B came apart in about a week. The top shell had a popped out plastic wad. The shell was likely to misfeed and maybe dump some pellets ito the action. The second shell was also deformed but not too bad. The crimped ammo was not as bad. I also tested slugs and found the top round deformed a little but would feed ok. I think its best to store the gun with the mag out. Or use slugs for the first two rounds in the mag. There doesnt seem to be any deformation with the loaded mag out of the gun. Just my .02. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psyched 0 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Given the importance most gun owners/users put on absolute reliabilty, this is kind of troubling: You cannot leave a loaded mag in the gun without possible deformation of the shells, possibly to the degree that they will not cycle and the gun could malfunction. This suggests that, unlike some other shotties, you cannot just leave it "loaded and ready" indefinitely, or if you do you may need to change out the shells frequently. Maybe it is just the shells mentioned (SB, Winchester) shot (vs slug) that are susceptible due to thin hulls...? Does it take about a week for the deformation to occur? What about leaving shells in the mags outside the gun. The post above suggests after a week or so, the shells were not deformed when the mag was not in the gun. What about longer periods of time with a loaded mag not in the gun? Will the shells compress from the spring and follower pushing into the shells? Interesting to think about scenarios where a person wants to carry the gun and loaded mags for an extended period...will they have to rotate the shells out to expect reliable function? Just trying to fully understand this issue... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 The Russians use steel cased shells but I havent tried them. Like I said in the above post if you use slugs with the mag in the gun it shouldnt be a problem. The five rounders wont deform the shells when out of the gun in my tests. If I wanted to leave the mag loaded in the gun with buckshot I would try to find some of the steel cased stuff. The Russian stuff has 13 00 pellets from what I have heard. Should be effective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psyched 0 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 I would want a shotgun like this for scatter...not slugs...except at an indoor range. I just spent some time on the internet trying to find some of that steel cased stuff and could not find it... Hunting trips, SHTF, home defense...all would seem to be situations in which one might want to leave the gun/mags loaded for extended periods...bummer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crow 2 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 (edited) Welp dude, it comes down to choices. Shells deform if left in a tube feeder for a long time as well. For HD I leave one in the chute and a couple of mags ready to rock. Practice has me confident that I can lock and load as fast as a tube feeder can pump one. Get ya a Saiga if yer into it, get ya a 870 or a 500 if ya ain't. Fer me, I'll rock and lock. Edited January 9, 2007 by Crow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 I bought some Aguila minishells to try as my top round.They hand cycle and I can top off my AGP 10 rounder with them.Off to the range hopefully soon! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psyched 0 Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 This seems to be the one beef people come up with on this gun (perhaps justifiably). I wonder if a good thread would be a list of all the strategies people have used (successfully and unsuccessfully) to deal effectively with this issue? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Akkid 0 Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Good info guys. Dont know if Im completely sold yet but well see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Where can I get a spare bolt to do my modification on? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) I just spent some time on the internet trying to find some of that steel cased stuff and could not find it... I don't know where you can find this stuff, but all the details are in this pic. Barnaul makes it BTW. I don't remember exactly how I ended up with it. I went shooting with Dodgeturbointerceptor last summer and he had it, he probably left in my car by accident. Or I stole it, not sure. If this is the only issue keeping you on the fence about a Saiga, shit, buy one and I'll mail you two of these rounds so you can store them! LOL Edit: Found steel cased birdshot, says it's discontinued. Look around at the next gunshow, I think that's where Dodge got it. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=833592 Here's the data tables on Barnaul's website: Says they have steel cased 12 gauge slugs!! http://www.barnaulammunition.com/shotgun.htm Edited January 10, 2007 by shaneman153a Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 YUMMIE!I wonder how well the steel shells would function.I have 3 old school steel BB shells from Russia about 10 years ago and they would NOT feed in my Remington 870 at all.I had 4 actually,shot one shell from an unremembered distance,and found the pellets actually scorched the stump!I still have the other 3 in my collection though...and they are too long to fit in the Saiga mag.Headstamp is 12 92 and with a wierd insignia... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 If you want to go the route of making your own, Ballistic Products (on the web somewhere) offers empty brass shotshell casings (I remember reading somewhere). And you don't need any special machines (or equipment) to load them if you use waterglass to seal a milk carton wad over the shot charge (the casings should last virtually forever too if the Saiga-12 ejection system doesn't mangle them too bad). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Using reloads for HD would be a lawyers dream....the other sides of course.....oh,any source for those extra bolts for the S-12??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andypote 2 Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I leave 1 in pipe. 3 in stock clip. Has set in corner for 2 months, no mods, HAS NOT DEFORMED. AND the AGP 10 rounders are built to compensate, and load on a closed bolt. (Per Advertising) Goodluck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Well,the Aguila minishells suck.Not enough oomph to work the action at all,even on #2 gas setting.Guess I'll be using the rest of the box in my single shot or double barrel.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wayne grow 0 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 For those with a manual bolt hold open, why not store with fully loaded mag and bolt locked back(I believe this is the "lock n' load" condition)? Would this be expected to wear out the action spring.....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
762minigun 1 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 For those with a manual bolt hold open, why not store with fully loaded mag and bolt locked back(I believe this is the "lock n' load" condition)? Would this be expected to wear out the action spring.....? + one This is the method i use. Also spare partsd can be obtained from Tantal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I use the 5 rounder loaded full of Sellier and Bellot #4 buckshot and I have it loaded in an empty chamber S-12.I do once in awhile take the mage out and make sure things are still pretty round.I will move the round a little in the mag so the pressure isn't constant on only one side.I like the idea of that bolt slamming home as I go after the bad guys that are blinded by my tactical flashlight mounted on the barrel! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I guess I am the only one that keeps 30 rounds of FMJ in the WASR10 next to the bed... Over-penetration? Fuck em... I NEVER have to worry about shell deformation, though... that magazine is good forever... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I'd use Wolf hollowpoints so they would do more damage to the bad guy before they shoot through the perp and through 4 houses... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S-12inWV 1 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I had several boxes of the same Russian stuff shown above.... It didn't run worth crap through my converted S-12, either in the Factory 5 rders Or the 8 rders. This has been some tima ago, but as I remember it, the shells seemed too long and ALWAYS got jammed into the top of the chamber, and awlays bent the casing too bad to even fire single shot afterword. I gave the rest away to buddies that rely on pumps...and they said it sucked too. It did seem odd to me that the Russain ammo didn't run like expected through one of "their" weapons. I'd never waste my money on it again....but yall please go ahead and tell me if I'm wrong. Also, the 7.62x39 HP does not expand like you'd think so.... On a deer it showed no noticable differance than the FMJ... I verified this in tree stumps, as they didn't expand one bit in old wet stumps, or dirt back-stops.... They only seemed to be visaully HP, no like the HP I'm used to...308 in 168 BTHP....now those DO expand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Yeah,the cheapy hollowpoints seem to fail but in a courtroom at least you tried!Just don't load up your HD AK with some of your hoarded armor piercing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 I had several boxes of the same Russian stuff shown above.... It didn't run worth crap through my converted S-12, either in the Factory 5 rders Or the 8 rders. This has been some tima ago, but as I remember it, the shells seemed too long and ALWAYS got jammed into the top of the chamber, and awlays bent the casing too bad to even fire single shot afterword. I gave the rest away to buddies that rely on pumps...and they said it sucked too. It did seem odd to me that the Russain ammo didn't run like expected through one of "their" weapons. I'd never waste my money on it again....but yall please go ahead and tell me if I'm wrong. Also, the 7.62x39 HP does not expand like you'd think so.... On a deer it showed no noticable differance than the FMJ... I verified this in tree stumps, as they didn't expand one bit in old wet stumps, or dirt back-stops.... They only seemed to be visaully HP, no like the HP I'm used to...308 in 168 BTHP....now those DO expand. I've seen the same results with the Wolf "hollow point", absolutely no change in the bullet even after it slammed through trees, water, dirt. Although Wolf "soft point" mashed up quite well when my romak was feeding it straight into that gap below the chamber Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Illuminaughty 0 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 What do you need to get a bolt hold open ak? Just a safety lever with a notch in it so it holds the bolt handle open? So noone knows of any kind of SD (00 buck or something close) shells that are brass/steel/something harder than plastic? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 The Barnul steel hulls work fine for me, but I haven't bought any in a long time. I tried a hundred or so for function, and am sitting on enough to keep mags loaded. I have been shooting Wolf larely due to price/availability. Guess it's time to look for Barnul's again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twinhairdryers 2 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 --> QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 18 2007, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Barnul steel hulls work fine for me, but I haven't bought any in a long time. I tried a hundred or so for function, and am sitting on enough to keep mags loaded. I have been shooting Wolf larely due to price/availability. Guess it's time to look for Barnul's again. +1 On those metal Barnauls. I have only 8 boxes left (come in 10 packs). Now can't find em. They run like mad in my 5 rounders. Would hang in my 8 rounders if loaded deep. Wouldn't even attempt to load my 10 rounders with them. They are a long case, and of course, they give zero mils in any mag. In a 5 rounder, they would be my load of choice, but my home security system includes an 8 rounder with 3 Nobel 00 on top, followed by 5 wolf slugs. I test 3 runs of this setup each range trip, and have had no hitches on it in about 30 trips. Gotta trust what you test! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 After the bolt is modified,how well does it work?Any problems?Anybody try the modified bolt ones on an AGP 10 rounder with 10 in the mag and 1 in the chamber? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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