308 as a mountain rifle

[Drinking Beer 12]

I'm headed to northern Montana for some wilderness backpacking for a week.

 

No hunting though, just thought I would take the .308 for protection.

 

Whats your opinion folks, is the .308 a grizzly stopper or not? I would bring 180gr federal ammo

 

Or is my 21" Saiga is to bulky for hiking mountains? Maybe I should get a 44mag

 

Any opinions or ideas on this, i'd like to hear em......

[Motopilot1 37]

i think it will do the trick i carry mine all over the hills.

[Paladin 37]

I think it would do the trick, but if your going to be hiking alot it's going to get really heavy & bulky.

I'd go with a big honking wheelgun if I had the choice. If you have a bear problem it will be at close range.

[Saigaczech 9]

Hmm, and some pepper spray for adding flavoring to your flesh too? Considering the average encounter distance where you may have to shoot to defend yourself I think a .44 Mag or bigger revolver with a 4" barrel would be a better way to go. long guns are just too unwieldy for this. In any case bring a friend and shoot him in the leg so you can run faster if it comes down to that.

[Paladin 37]

Hmm, and some pepper spray for adding flavoring to your flesh too? Considering the average encounter distance where you may have to shoot to defend yourself I think a .44 Mag or bigger revolver with a 4" barrel would be a better way to go. long guns are just too unwieldy for this. In any case bring a friend and shoot him in the leg so you can run faster if it comes down to that.

 

 

I'm a diver and a divemaster once said that if you come across an aggressive shark, you don't have to outswim the shark, just your dive buddy.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

By the time you draw the 308 the bear will be using you to fertilize the blueberries.

 

Seriously, after a week in montana backpacking you will not want to be toting around the 308 (as nice as it is). Get some bear spray (this actually works if it's not windy, which of course it never is in the mountains) and a ruger 480 (big bullet, not so big kick).

[dvdivx 0]

If you plan on using a pistol against a Grizzly good luck with that. A .308 would be far better than any handgun. Personally I'd use a Saiga 12 with Black magic slugs in it.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...&t=11082005

 

Most important rules are keep ALL food and anything that smells away from the camp. never cook near the camp and make noise so you don't surprise the bears. Yes the biggest Grizzly ever was taken with a .22lr but are you willing to try that? Personally I'd rather take those odds with a lottery instead of a pissed off 1000+lb bear.

[Squib 0]

I know that S-308 will put a bear down. Matter of act, there is a S308 killing a black bear in Youtube. Before anyone takes me to school about the difference between black and grizz - I know - I live and hunt in Montana. That said - if you're backpacking and don't mind carrying your 308 as if you were on patrol - well and good - get a tactical sling and carry it ready - that will be quicker than unholstering a pistol.

 

If you planned on slinging your saiga on your back - too slow - better have a .460 on your hip.

 

Last word on ammo. IF you're going to go with the Saiga - use FMJ. That soft nose crap is for hunting Whitetail, mule deer etc. FMJ will penetrate much better. I know...it's not legal to hunt with FMJ - but guess what - if you have the misfortune to meet up with any bear - black or griz, and you have the great fortune to survive - do NOT tell the FWP officer you had that Saiga with FMJ for hunting - it was for protection. Also remember in places like Yellowstone firearms are forbidden I believe - not that I ever cared.

 

Best of luck...

[Bvamp 604]

from what I have been told, and have read elsewhere, you may only be able to draw and use a wheelgun if attacked by a bear. You wont be able to draw a long arm in some cases.

 

This is why the people in bear country that travel the woods regularly will carry 44mag wheelguns or 454s.

 

The wheelgun, if it fails, you can pull the trigger again without using your other hand to operate anything, or take the time to do anything BUT pull the trigger again. Note, that a single action 44 will not be really what you want.

 

The 308 would be ideal as a camp gun or one to carry along if you go by means of a horse or mule on hunts.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Bvamp

[Motopilot1 37]

i have an idea carry both s308 and 44mag

[netpackrat 566]

from what I have been told, and have read elsewhere, you may only be able to draw and use a wheelgun if attacked by a bear. You wont be able to draw a long arm in some cases.

 

This is why the people in bear country that travel the woods regularly will carry 44mag wheelguns or 454s.

 

 

Well, you can certainly tell the people in this thread who know about bears and bear country from those who do not (Bvamp, not picking on you specifically, your post was just convenient to quote for the points I want to address). First of all, I grew up in rural Alaska, and have spent a good portion of my life out and about in bear country. There are only 2 reasons why people carry the large revolvers up here; the first is backup to their long gun, and the second is for when you are fishing, or doing something else that makes it difficult or impossible to carry a long gun. The big revolvers have gotten the job done when all else failed, but short of insane stuff like the Magnum Research BFR, the biggest revolver is still going to be a lot weaker than an average rifle like the .308.

 

People who haven't seen bears and what they are capable of often have a hard time fathoming the amount of damage a big bear can soak up without being stopped. There are plenty of cases where bears have taken fatal hits from major caliber rifles like the .308 and ought six, still killed or severely mauled the guy who shot them, and wandered off to die later. The large "african" magnum rifles are not overkill if you will be in brown/grizzly country. A big revolver is certainly good insurance to have, but it is a weapon of last resort where bears are concerned. It is, of course, critically important to put the bullet in the right place (brain or spine to stop a charge), but not only do you need to have a cartridge with the horsepower to do the job, you have to be able to hit with it. If I am trying to hit a large, aggressive, moving target at close range in just the right spot, I will take almost any long gun (excluding .22s) over a revolver any day.

 

I'm going to attach two pictures to this post. The first is my idea of a bear protection firearm. It's a .450 Marlin Guide Gun with "a few" mods. The second is a picture my brother took on one of our camping and fishing trips. The boot on the right is my size 12 Danner Rainforest, which measured 13" from toe to heel. The guide gun is barely manageable with fishing gear, but I would sure rather be carrying it than some revolver if I had to meet up with the animal that made those prints.

[netpackrat 566]

Before I forget, another reason why a revolver is recommended in bear country AS A BACKUP, is that there have been a number of people who have saved their own lives by having a securely holstered large caliber revolver on their person when attacked. For whatever reason the bear got to them before they could shoot it (long gun knocked away, taken by surprise, etc.), and the mauling commenced. If you assume a fetal position (to protect your vitals) and play dead, a brown bear will often tire of mauling you and take a breather, either out of boredom or to see if you are really dead. If your handgun is still snug in its holster, you will very likely have a chance to shoot the bear at a range where it is difficult to miss.

 

It should be noted that the above does not apply to encounters with black bear. Brown bears usually attack human beings out of fear and/or anger, while black bears are more likely to see you as a food source. So playing dead with a black bear is the precise wrong thing to do.

[Bvamp 604]

Hey, NO OFFENSE TAKEN AT ALL!!!!

 

 

I use "camp gun" loosely, being grown in upstate NY.

 

 

 

This man, as you can tell, knows what he is talking about....listen to him closely.....

 

 

 

 

This is a VERY serious question with a VERY serious answer.

 

 

...side note: I read a transcript of some of the lewis and clark papers/notebooks, and amongst it all was a reference to grizzly bear, which were new mammals to them.......they unanimously referred to the as "the enemy". That might tell us all something, that hasnt had one come at them........edit

Edited February 20, 2008 by Bvamp

[mr. fudd 0]

I'd opt for a x39 instead. The S308 is actually a fairly heavy rifle and not something I'd want to carry around "just in case". The X39 on the other hand is much lighter and while it might pack a somewhat marginal bullet for brown bears, with high cap mags you have 30 shots to get the job done with. I know from personal experience that 7.62x39 will put down black bears. Also, even a marginal rifle bullet like the 7.62x39 is still more powerful than a .44 mag.

Edited February 20, 2008 by mr. fudd

[Bvamp 604]

I would just carry the biggest round I could carry.

 

In my case, it would be a 12 gauge with slugs and buck 2 slugs to 1 buck in the mag....

 

 

But, I would be damned sure to have a high-caliber wheelgun, outright.....

 

Buckshot works good on rabid fishers, but not on a bear. apperciate the polite "put in place" comment, fully.

 

My hat is off to you......guys like Netpackrat are invalueable to places like this forum, and even MORE SO to the membership.....I bet you he carries a saiga as his long gun, too......

 

The community as a whole is VERY appreciative of information like this, and membership like this.....

Edited February 20, 2008 by Bvamp

[Saigaczech 9]

Well, I know at least one story of a bear brought down with a .410 and a 9mm (the bear finaly died as the 9mm went into slide lock). I think it was a brown bear, certainly not grizzly. I would avoid any bear if I detected him/her in time and give them a wide berth. Besides respecting them as a wonderful form of life I only hunt cardboard right now. My thoughts and choice of a .44Mag or larger revolver is for unexpected close range encounters. I am not giving myself too much of a chance but it is better then nothing and easier/faster to get on target then a long gun at bad breath distance. At least this man has more sense then some idiot on XD-talk a few years ago, that guy thought a .40 XD was sufficient.

[netpackrat 566]

Brown and Grizzly are the same species. Here in Alaska, the smaller, interior bears are generally referred to as grizzlies, and the larger, salmon fed coastal bears are called browns, but in reality they are the same crittur.

[cscharlie 107]

Man,

considering the subject, I think of a .308 and 44mag as wee little pop guns.

[Paladin 37]

Wow! what a paw print!

 

I don't live in bear country, and I don't hunt so I'll defer to those who do.

 

That being said I have been planning a trip in my head for some time to bear country for hiking, etc. and I have read different opinions and it seems that it similar to the which gun for concealed carry. If you get into a situation you're gonna wish you had a freaking cannon, but day in and day out carry with concealment in mind most carry small guns/calibers.

 

If I had the griz that made that paw print charging me I'd want one of the big magnum rifles. But for hiking along the trails all day? With it being long odds of an aggressive encounter I'd probably opt a S&W 500 mag. Tosses a 300gr slug @2075 V with 2868 E- and there's loads that exceed 3.000ftlbs of energy! thats quite a bit of stopping power. You shoot anything in the head with that at close range and it's going to die-period. The only question is can you hit it while you're freaking out and will it die on top you

[headshot 52]

I'd opt for a x39 instead. The S308 is actually a fairly heavy rifle and not something I'd want to carry around "just in case". The X39 on the other hand is much lighter and while it might pack a somewhat marginal bullet for brown bears, with high cap mags you have 30 shots to get the job done with. I know from personal experience that 7.62x39 will put down black bears. Also, even a marginal rifle bullet like the 7.62x39 is still more powerful than a .44 mag.

 

 

Ammo selection would be a problem, as I recall that most x39 has a hollow cavity in the nose whereas .308 has many varieties of ammo.

 

Admittedly, I do not own a x39, but I do own several .308s and I would trust it more to punching through a bears skull more than I would a x39. I would count on it to dump more energy in it as well.

[DLT 1,646]

I'd opt for a x39 instead. The S308 is actually a fairly heavy rifle and not something I'd want to carry around "just in case". The X39 on the other hand is much lighter and while it might pack a somewhat marginal bullet for brown bears, with high cap mags you have 30 shots to get the job done with. I know from personal experience that 7.62x39 will put down black bears. Also, even a marginal rifle bullet like the 7.62x39 is still more powerful than a .44 mag.

 

 

Ammo selection would be a problem, as I recall that most x39 has a hollow cavity in the nose whereas .308 has many varieties of ammo.

 

Admittedly, I do not own a x39, but I do own several .308s and I would trust it more to punching through a bears skull more than I would a x39. I would count on it to dump more energy in it as well.

 

 

I'd take a 16" S308 with a hi cap mag. Handgun would probably be a 44 mag. If I unload a hi cap mag of 308 and a bear is still coming at me, then I'd save the last round in the 44mag for myself. But something tells me that the 308 would do the trick, provided you hit something vital.

[Saigaczech 9]

I'd opt for a x39 instead. The S308 is actually a fairly heavy rifle and not something I'd want to carry around "just in case". The X39 on the other hand is much lighter and while it might pack a somewhat marginal bullet for brown bears, with high cap mags you have 30 shots to get the job done with. I know from personal experience that 7.62x39 will put down black bears. Also, even a marginal rifle bullet like the 7.62x39 is still more powerful than a .44 mag.

 

 

Ammo selection would be a problem, as I recall that most x39 has a hollow cavity in the nose whereas .308 has many varieties of ammo.

 

Admittedly, I do not own a x39, but I do own several .308s and I would trust it more to punching through a bears skull more than I would a x39. I would count on it to dump more energy in it as well.

 

 

I'd take a 16" S308 with a hi cap mag. Handgun would probably be a 44 mag. If I unload a hi cap mag of 308 and a bear is still coming at me, then I'd save the last round in the 44mag for myself. But something tells me that the 308 would do the trick, provided you hit something vital.

 

 

Remember, even with a vital hit like the heart the bear will probably function long enough to make sure of you. The only real sure stop would be the CNS (Central Nervous System). That is a very hard target to get under stress when both of you are moving. I doubt you would have the time to commit honorable seppuku either.

[Drinking Beer 12]

[netpackrat 566]

Admittedly, I do not own a x39, but I do own several .308s and I would trust it more to punching through a bears skull more than I would a x39. I would count on it to dump more energy in it as well.

 

There have actually been cases of bullets from high powered rifles (.30-06, etc.) being deflected when they hit brown bears in the skull, just a little high. The skull of a bear is pretty thick, and angled about right. The ideal shot is up the snout, but is rather difficult to bring off. The .308 is a great cartridge for thin skinned game, and while it isn't what I would choose for a bear stopping or hunting cartridge, if it is what you have, there is no reason why it couldn't do the job. Load it with well constructed 180 grain bullets (partition, grand slam, etc.) and you should do okay. Lots of people don't like autoloading rifles for bear and other dangerous game due to the possibility of jams, but the AK action is one of the few that I would actually trust to carry up here (which is one of the reasons I bought one).

 

Also, since I think somebody mentioned it, you can do a lot worse than a slug loaded 12 gauge. Just be sure to use full diameter foster type slugs and not sabot slugs, which are lighter and meant for deer sized game.

[headshot 52]

[Squib 0]

[netpackrat 566]

I would advise against FMJ. In general, you want to use well constructed premium bullets of the heaviest weight available for the caliber. This will ensure that you still have expansion for maximum damage, and that the bullets will hold together and penetrate far enough to get the job done. Sure, fmj "should" penetrate, but not necessarily, because they are not designed to hold together like a premium softpoint. Something like a Nosler Partition will hold together and penetrate, and the expansion just might be enough to turn a marginal hit into a stopper.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Netpackrat

[shaneman153a 39]

If you do take the .308, use a low cap mag and no scope. You want to make the profile as slim and snag-free as possible so it doesn't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your ass.

[Motopilot1 37]

If you do take the .308, use a low cap mag and no scope. You want to make the profile as slim and snag-free as possible so it doesn't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your ass.

i was reading all intent until i came to the last part

[Drinking Beer 12]

.......

Edited February 21, 2008 by Drinking Beer