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.308 Bullpup!


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#1 Folkien

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 02:13 PM

I've been a fan of the site for a while, but with my first major project about to get started, I figured I'd pop in and say 'ello.

There are about 10 major changes I'd like to make to my 16.2" 308, some of them just standard bullpup mods, some more in depth "fun" stuff.

As far as the trigger mod goes, I'm considering using a 2.2mm bike cable wired through a hardened tube mounted along the lower left of the receiver. Besides preventing carbon buildup along the critically flexible cable, the tube could be used as a reciprocating rod for the disconnector when released (keeping the cable taught, and making bump firing easier). I've been told that this would only work with an automatic trigger group, or a single hook trigger with a straight disconnect (which I'm completely unfamiliar with). Also, I'm supposed to "look to a VZ-58 for inspiration" on modifying the trigger group. Unfortunately, those are kinda hard to come by. Anyone happen to have a VZ or any brilliant ideas lying around?

After changing the magwell, I was gonna bore out a larger collar and install a guide so that I could fit 7.62x51's as well as the standard .308's, but:
a. Would such a modification cause dangerous changes in piston pressure?
b. Outside of those rare Thompson drum mags (http://www.impactgun...ETA-762X51.html maybe) which would need some work to fit the release system, are there any cheap high cap 7.62x51 mags out there?
c. We have those nice 25 rd .308 mags now. Are they decent? Is the price easily offset by the cheaper .308 ammo?

Anyway, those are the only particularly puzzling/dangerous problems I'm trying to solve. Comments, concerns?

Thanks! I'll keep you all posted, and put up some diagrams and pics as soon as I get them.
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#2 ClickClickD'oh

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 03:37 PM

Your Saiga .308 will function fine out of the box useing either .308 commercial ammunition or surplus military 7.62x51mm. No mods are necessary in that regard.

I would advise against attempting to use any drum type magazines in a bullpup setup. That's going to put the swell of the magazine right where your chest should be.. uncomfortable and awkward at best.

I can't speak for the fit/function of the Surefire 25rnds since I don't own any myself, but I'm sure someone else can. I use the FBMG 20rnd mags, and they are excellent. If the Surefires are up to the same standard you should be very happy using them.

I've got nothing on the bullpup stuff. Keep us posted though, I have the urge to bullpup an S12.

#3 Folkien

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 03:51 PM

Thanks. I had read that 7.62x51s' thicker rims could cause jamming or catches with the ejection pin (which didn't seem all too much fun with a bullpup, as I could very well end up with a scope, dustcover, and bolt freshly lodged in my cranium). Now that I think about it, though, that was probably in reference to 7.62x54R ammo.
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#4 csspecs

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 01:48 AM

I have a bull pup that I built/am building, the linkage is a tad more of a pain than you would think. It's made out of steel (square tube for part of the buttstock and the front stock is uni-strut). I am going to mount a red dot on a scout mount or by welding a side mount onto the front stock and using a normal AK side mount rail. I am working on a fish lip wire cutting muzzle device.

The triangle part of the stock is not covering anything, the trigger is flush with the bottom of the receiver. The only reason it's there is to toughen the stock (you could beat a troop of baboons to death with it and it would still be sturdy). The all steel construction has a draw back and added benifit..... It adds a FEW pounds, but it does make muzzle climb a thing of the past.

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Edited by csspecs, 23 February 2008 - 01:50 AM.

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#5 uncle jerky

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 03:20 PM

I've used 308 and 7.62x51 in my rifle w/ no problems at all.

#6 Maniac Jack

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 01:27 AM

I can attest to the ammo, as I've only ever used military surplus - South African, and Australian.

I can also atttest to the SureFire 20 and 25 round mags. I've got a couple of each and they work flawlessly. I had had a lot of trouble with FBMG mags fitting way too loose in my guns, thus causing misfeeding, but the SureFire mags are an extremely secure and tight-fitting magazine.

Dude, I dig the bull-pup idea! I actually just recently got to fondle a Styre AUG at a gun shop, and I have to tell ya, the bull-pup design just feels right. I never made the connection to a bull-pup AK...

Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if say, the company that makes the plastic bull-pup stock for the 10/22 and Mini-14 were to see this and want to make one for the AK? Dude, you oughta patent this idea and sell it!
"You want my gun? Here, let me give it to you - bullets first."

#7 csspecs

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 02:22 AM

Ka-var had a bullpup kit for AKs, it had a number of issues with it mostly relating to the triggers and the linkage particularly at the front trunnion just in front of the magazine.

If anyone comes up with a sure fire way of making an AK bullpup I would like to buy one.

Mine measures 27 over all with a 16 inch barrel, So without going SBR it's not getting any shorter. I have not had a chance to shoot mine much (I test fired a few rounds but thats it). I plan to shoot it tomorrow afternoon, my mig welders valve broke so some of the welds on it are just burned slag so I have to fix the welds now that I replaced the valve.

What I have in the picture will work with a little modding on all the saigas except the 100 series and the saiga-12 (sad I know but there is no room next to the magazine for the linkage wire to go).

Have fun with you bullpup project, I had a lot of fun with mine (I did pull a bit of hair out through the project).

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#8 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 02:51 AM

classicarms.us has a bullpup AK for sale, still.......an chromed ones too.....
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#9 superhawk138

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 05:36 AM

This is a picture of my Saiga .410 bullpup. Attached File  .410_4.jpg   12.38KB   14 downloads

#10 dyi

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 10:57 AM

Posted Image

http://pookieweb.dyn..._308/ak_308.htm

HCPOOKIE's gun not mine.

Edited by dyi, 27 February 2008 - 05:29 PM.

2001 EAA 19" S12, pistol grip setup, LRBHO, to send off SBS Form 1 soon
2006 RAA 16" S223, pistol grip setup, M16 mag conversion
2006 RAA 22" S308, Saiganov in-training
2007 RAA 16" S223, AK74 Clone in-training
2007 RAA 16" 762, AKM Clone in-training
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2007 RAA 410, Bull pup? in-training
2007 RAA 16" 762 Dimpled (build undecided)
2007 RAA 16" 762 Dimpled-Y (build undecided)
2008 RAA 19" S12 conversion in progress
2008 RAA 19" S12 conversion in progress
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#11 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 12:37 PM

Wow man that's pretty creative! Good job! :smoke:

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#12 Folkien

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 12:49 PM

Posted Image

http://pookieweb.dyn..._308/ak_308.htm



That's scarily close to what I have in mind, only with a forward-swept grip, angled buttpad, and a diagonally mounted laser sight... and I guess probably synthetic furniture and a larger mag. I'll have to get a mockup done sometime.

And yah. That is one hell of a conversion piece.
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#13 MD_Willington

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 04:14 PM

PM hcpookie

He does have an account here.
If it is called common sense, why ain't it too common anymore?

#14 Saigaczech

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 05:25 PM

Stop this!!!! You are making me want to spend more time and money converting my S 308. NOT FAIR, my tax refund has not arrived yet. Grrrrr.
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#15 Folkien

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 11:29 PM

Errr, dumb questions:
a. Is there a specific definition for what qualifies as a buttstock?
b. If you remove the buttstock from a rifle and only have a pistol grip and handguard, does it have to be registered as an SBR?
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#16 MD_Willington

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 02:53 PM

a. Not sure. Probably not.... I may be wrong though.. happens a lot... LOL

b. No, it is just a rifle without a butt stock.

Now if it was an AK pistol to begin with and you put a butt stock on it, that would be a NFA violation, but Saiga rifles are just that, rifles...

Also if was a pistol to begin with and you put a Romi donkey dick lower handguard on it, then that would be a NFA violation, since you just made an AOW without getting approval from "The Man"... IIRC
If it is called common sense, why ain't it too common anymore?

#17 BobAsh

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 04:47 PM

Errr, dumb questions:
a. Is there a specific definition for what qualifies as a buttstock?
b. If you remove the buttstock from a rifle and only have a pistol grip and handguard, does it have to be registered as an SBR?


Well, all the rifles pictured above have a buttstock, but your individual state laws may vary; some states have a minimum length for rifles.

No, SBR means "Short Barreled Rifle", so as long as you don't cut the barrel you're OK.

Edited by BobAsh, 27 February 2008 - 04:50 PM.

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#18 macbeau

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 07:23 PM

Ummmmm...
I am not a gun expert on the internet, but I guess I offer myself up occasionally as one - when questions like this come up. There is a reason that only France (have the Germans left Paris yet?), Great Britian (have they take Basra yet????) and Australia (how is that return to East Timor going for ya?) have adopted a "bullpup" rifle as their general issue military rifle. The reason is, none of them know how to conduct warfare and a Bullpup is lacking in versitility on several levels...
Without going into details here, please Google "Bullpup infantry rifle" and read up on the subject. However, the reason that even ITALY and BANGLEDESH don't use bullpups as a combat arm [much less any nation that is serious about real fighting arms for it's military] is pretty clear.
I don't deny that they look cool and that you can hit a target with them (go for it) under "decent UN circumstances", but as a "general purpose" fighting arm - you are limiting your capability with a bullpup...

From personal experience, bullpups are limiting especially in a CQB/MOUT environment and are not "fumble-proof"....

I have dealt with many of them and, I would rather have a standard rifle configuration than a "bullpup" on any given day, and on any given circumstance - YES! Even a vehicle situation....

Macbeau sends...

Edited by macbeau, 27 February 2008 - 07:31 PM.

"Inside every liberal is an American trying to get out." -- Macbeau (2004)

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#19 Folkien

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 01:53 PM

Sure they are crappy general issue weapons, but they excel in certain operations.

Shorter overall length, closer center of balance, better ergonomics, lower recoil centering, and concealibility make bullpups preferable to full-sized rifles in urban and BAR operations. Also good luck operating a tactical shield, sidearm, flashlight, grenade, or rappelling line with your rifle shouldered.

Yah, that's what SMG's are for, but they lack the punch to take down persons who might pop out at inconvenient distances or with armor/cover. On that note, yah I'd love an SBR, but don't feel like paying the tax when bullpups fill largely the same roll with greater versatility and slightly reduced reliability.
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#20 ClickClickD'oh

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 04:03 PM

There is a reason that only France (have the Germans left Paris yet?), Great Britian (have they take Basra yet????) and Australia (how is that return to East Timor going for ya?) have adopted a "bullpup" rifle as their general issue military rifle. The reason is, none of them know how to conduct warfare and a Bullpup is lacking in versitility on several levels...

Well, I would think that Israel knows how to conduct warfare. Do you have an explanation for the Tavor?

#21 macbeau

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 04:33 PM

There is a reason that only France (have the Germans left Paris yet?), Great Britian (have they take Basra yet????) and Australia (how is that return to East Timor going for ya?) have adopted a "bullpup" rifle as their general issue military rifle. The reason is, none of them know how to conduct warfare and a Bullpup is lacking in versitility on several levels...

Well, I would think that Israel knows how to conduct warfare. Do you have an explanation for the Tavor?

Edit - You appear to have something there. I still don't think the bullpup is an ideal platform for general issue.

Edited by macbeau, 29 February 2008 - 06:19 AM.

"Inside every liberal is an American trying to get out." -- Macbeau (2004)

"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." -- Sir Winston Churchill (1943)

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country," --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC. (1991)

"Statistics in the hands of an liberal are like a lamp-post to a drunk - they're used more for support than illumination." -- Bill Sangster (1989)

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
- Unknown...

 


#22 ClickClickD'oh

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:01 PM

Nope. The Tavor is replacing the M-16 as the main arm of the IDF.

#23 macbeau

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 06:25 PM

"snip" - point taken.

Edited by macbeau, 29 February 2008 - 06:20 AM.

"Inside every liberal is an American trying to get out." -- Macbeau (2004)

"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." -- Sir Winston Churchill (1943)

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country," --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC. (1991)

"Statistics in the hands of an liberal are like a lamp-post to a drunk - they're used more for support than illumination." -- Bill Sangster (1989)

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
- Unknown...

 


#24 ClickClickD'oh

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 07:01 PM

Not the last I heard... You must be privy to REAL info that neither I, the Israeli's, Jane's Defense Weekly nor the DIA don't know...


Maybe Janes should start reading the news..

http://www.israelnat...ews.aspx/124587

#25 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 07:18 PM

Errr, dumb questions:
a. Is there a specific definition for what qualifies as a buttstock?
b. If you remove the buttstock from a rifle and only have a pistol grip and handguard, does it have to be registered as an SBR?



The issue for SBR's is the barrel length. Anything under 16 inches with a stock is an SBR, so most pistols with buttstocks are SBR's. If you decide to shoot an otherwise rifle with an under 16 in bbl as a pistol (with no stock), well that's your choice I suppose. That same setup with anything that the ATF might consider a stock would land you in jail. I think to pass any smell test you'd need to weld up the receiver in a way that wouldn't allow a stock to be attached quick enough that it could be a rifle/SBR just by putting a couple parts together.

Seriously, check out the ATF website. In a couple hours of time invested, you will be able to figure it out. Sure, it should take you only about 5 minutes, but hey that's government for ya...

Edited by buckandaquarterquarterstaff, 28 February 2008 - 08:09 PM.


#26 macbeau

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 07:28 PM

Edited - Drive on... Be all you can be... :super:

Macbeau sends...

Edited by macbeau, 29 February 2008 - 06:23 AM.

"Inside every liberal is an American trying to get out." -- Macbeau (2004)

"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." -- Sir Winston Churchill (1943)

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country," --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC. (1991)

"Statistics in the hands of an liberal are like a lamp-post to a drunk - they're used more for support than illumination." -- Bill Sangster (1989)

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
- Unknown...

 


#27 BobAsh

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 11:02 PM

I know that alot of guys think they are the future, and I don't really care to speculate about that; too subjective.

Personally I don't care to shoot them, that's all.
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#28 dyi

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 02:31 PM

Wow apparently I missed a real poo storm here over nothing. Why build a bullpup? Because we can!!! :haha:

But seriously the one I posted by HCPOOKIE is a copy of the RUSSIAN SVU bullpup experimental. So regardless of this and that, can't we just appreciate it for what it is and if want to build one more power to you! Too many arm chair commandos.

Now for more porn:
Posted Image
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and for last!!!
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YES IT STILL HAS A BAYO MOUNT!
2001 EAA 19" S12, pistol grip setup, LRBHO, to send off SBS Form 1 soon
2006 RAA 16" S223, pistol grip setup, M16 mag conversion
2006 RAA 22" S308, Saiganov in-training
2007 RAA 16" S223, AK74 Clone in-training
2007 RAA 16" 762, AKM Clone in-training
2007 RAA 410, Traded for another S12
2007 RAA 410, Bull pup? in-training
2007 RAA 16" 762 Dimpled (build undecided)
2007 RAA 16" 762 Dimpled-Y (build undecided)
2008 RAA 19" S12 conversion in progress
2008 RAA 19" S12 conversion in progress
2009 RAA 16" 545 conversion in progress
2009 RAA 16" 545 conversion in progress
2009 RAA 16" 545 conversion in progress
Lots of non-saigas

#29 SOPMOD

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 03:45 PM

Not the last I heard... You must be privy to REAL info that neither I, the Israeli's, Jane's Defense Weekly nor the DIA don't know...


Maybe Janes should start reading the news..

http://www.israelnat...ews.aspx/124587



I don't mean to be a jerky but at the same time the gigantic machine of Israeli government is foisting a pretty darned good bullpup onto regular infantry their Hostage Rescue and Naval Commandos are continuing to purchase Micro Galils and Micro Uzis and they can choose whatever they want includind the latest M16 derivatives and or the MTAR)Micro Tavor);)

#30 csspecs

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:49 PM

Just wanted to point out that you want to make sure your front trigger will pull the wire enough to pull the real trigger. The longer you make the arm on the trigger the stiffer but shorter a trigger pull that you will have.

The trigger arm needs to be longer than a tapco G2 trigger by about a healthy 1/4 inch. Since I had 922r more than taken care of I used the stock saiga trigger and added a L shaped arm to it. I am still looking for a wire that I like, I am using some stainless steel but it is to soft to stay in the shape I want.

If you are doing something different for the trigger I would like to see it.

I would like to update that mine is done and working for my x39, I have a side scope mount on the forearm, thanks to a barrel clamp setup that I made the front is rock solid and does not seem to shift at all. I have a better red dot but it's sighted in on another rifle and I'm not messing with it for now.

http://img.photobuck...cs/IMG_2142.jpg

I would also like to mention that you want about an inch of clearance between the pistol grip and the arc of the magazine so that you can keep your hand on the grip while changing mags.

Edited by csspecs, 03 March 2008 - 02:21 AM.

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