getitat 609 Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 Hello I purchased a 7.62x.39 Saiga 16" about four months ago (maybe longer) and the POS is still unshootable. I've spent more time on it than any of my conversions, more $$$ that any except my S12's, and I'm really aggravated that I bought the lump of feces. I got it 'cause I have a buttload of AK mag's and ammo, which were purchased for my Red Jacket AK pistol. I figured I'd go ahead and get a rifle, since I had a spare IOR scope and mount, and more ammo than I'd ever shoot through my pistol. Well, the worthless piece of shit hasn't cycled two rounds in a row yet. The bolt slides over the end of the fresh cartridge, gouges the shell and wedges the round between the bolt and the breech. I thought it might be the fact that I screwed up and trimmed too much off the mag catch and the mag's were sitting too low in the receiver. So, I ordered a new catch and pin from K-Var and installed it today (kind of a PIA in itself...) and trimmed it by microns with the flat side of a dremmel wheel until one of the four different mag's I had on the bench would lock in, and then, only if I forced the catch home with my finger. The other three mag's (all four are new, or virtually so) wouldn't even lock in yet. Not a bit of play in the mag, and the same lame horse shit with the failure to pick up a new round. Trimmed a hair more off so the other three would lock in, same shit So, I'm pretty well convinced that the problem is some vodka-soaked assembly issues....(not me!) Apparently, the bolt guide is just too high, or the mag seats are too low. What really sucks is this POS is already converted, with Dinzag-supplied muzzle-threading and crowning, etc. I have a feeling I'm pretty much SOL with RAA since I've pretty much altered the hell outa it. Anybody have a similar experience with a fully converted Saiga? I guess my only recourse is to cross my fingers and roll the dice with a replacement, and swap what can be swapped, re-do what I have to re-do (like the muzzle threading/crowning) and hope tha same sorry SOB didn't work on the next one I buy. I was never really enthusiastic about the .39 load (I got into Saiga's 'cause they made .308 AK's) and this BS has really soured me. I know I could get Surefire mag's or whatever and forego the guide/mag catch mod's, but the reason I went this route was to utilize the 50 or so mag's (and Norinco drums) that I already have. Vent OFF One good reason to shoot 'yer stuff before you modify it, I reckon..... guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
streetfrog1 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I see no mention of a bullet guide installed. And what you describe is exactly what would happen if it were skipped. You can't use regular AK mags without a bullet guide installed on the trunnion. call Dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Yep, that's the problem alright. No bullet guide = no military AK mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Guido! You've been here long enough to know about the bullet guide!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Yep sounds like a bullet guide issue. Does it cycle with the factory 10 rounder? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 have you tried to cycle it with say, surefire or promags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wally 2 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 spend $12 and get a master molder mag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
knutz 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Since your gun is such a POS and I just happened to find $50 in the parking lot of my shop today and I'm feeling generous I'll give you $50 for it. whaddya say? I'll even pay for shipping out of the goodness of my heart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Jeez.....guys....read the post. It picks up the first round just fine but either short strokes the bolt or the bolt runs over the top of the next round in the mag. He has the mag up as far as it will go and the bolt still misses the back of the case head. It needs more gas (if its short stroking) or the rails are shot into the receiver too high compared to the bore position. That can be fixed by welding the bolt carrier to hold the bolt lower when it is extended forward in the carrier picking up the shell from the magazine. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=26198&hl= Refer to above post, this has been an ongoing problem for Guido2 and it ain't Dinzag's bullet guide. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norty 13 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I had the same problem on a Yugo M70. The rails inside the reciever that the bolt rides on were not installed correctly(too high). It would not cycled by hand either. My 2 cent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Hello Thanks for all the help and opinions. As 1911 mentioned, I posted this problem a few weeks ago and included pic's of the wedged bullet and the Dinzag engineered bullet guide in place. I'm confident the Dinzag guide would work flawlessly, if I could just get a round to that point in the process. As Tony and Norty mentioned, I believe the rails are simply at the wrong elevation in respect to where the mag seats. It won't even strip the first round out of a mag by hand cycling. It hasn't yet gotten to the point of the feed ramp or gas blowback being an issue. It will only fire a round that is inserted by hand. That is with any of three different ammo manufacturers, and handloads as well, and four different types of new magazines. I'm afraid this one is truly not worth any more time and trouble on. Once again, may be worth it to test these buggers out prior to spending $$$ and time converting them. Anyone know if a standard AK bolt is fitted to these? Respectfully posted, guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 all i got to say is, thanks for the laugh. i needed it. know how you feel. go outside, grab a 2x4 or a old bat and beat the hell out of a tree. it gets out pent up anger. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris in va 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 I don't have a micrometer. Can anyone do some measurements for this guy to compare his to? We have to get this solved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Hello Guess I'll make this a "parts gun" (like I needed one of those...) -Main point of this post is..... "Sometimes quality control......Isn't!" Make sure the factory has done their part prior to you doing yours. Even if Master Molder or Surefire mag's had it functioning, it would defeat the purpose, for me. I'm trying to utilize the mag's and drums I already have. Having two similar rifles that each require specific mag's would not be very beneficial, either. Sigh....Wonder how long the waiting list is for the Dinzag die and crowning tool? Respectfully posted, guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Just out of curiousity, why did you buy 50 mags and several drums for a single AK pistol? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Just out of curiousity, why did you buy 50 mags and several drums for a single AK pistol? Well, when it comes to ammo and mag's, my philosophy is "Enough is Never Enough!" Anyway, I got the mag's at very good prices when different retailers were closing 'em out a couple or so years ago. That was well prior to the "Hi-Cap Hysteria" that we're seeing now. And, as far as the Norinco drums, I only have one of each (75# & 100#) and those are pretty much "get 'em when you can" items. I have maybe 35-40 hi-cap AK mag's, the rest are 10's and 20's for bench firing. I guess I don't really have a valid reason..... Respectfully posted, guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Respectfully, Guido2, none of the mags you've listed are "high capacity", but rather "standard capacity". All of the capacities you've listed have been issued for decades by the various militaries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Respectfully, Guido2, none of the mags you've listed are "high capacity", but rather "standard capacity". All of the capacities you've listed have been issued for decades by the various militaries. Well hell, that's sure to cheer guido up, 'cuz it's not like he's pissed off enough about his weapon. Besides, isn't that relevant to state laws anyway? Because a standard 30rd mag for any weapon is absolutely a hi-cap mag in NJ. Actually, anything over 15 is hi-cap over here. Guido, sorry to hear about your problems but thanks for giving some of us the heads up. The 7.62x39 is my next purchase and one that I will convert...unless I convert the .308 first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Besides, isn't that relevant to state laws anyway? Because a standard 30rd mag for any weapon is absolutely a hi-cap mag in NJ. Actually, anything over 15 is hi-cap over here. Buying a skunk and calling it your pet cat doesn't make it smell any different. The term "high capacity" was coined by the Brady bunch to put the onus of evil on anyone who uses them. Evil intent is not in the object, but the person wielding it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Nalioth you nitpicker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Respectfully, Guido2, none of the mags you've listed are "high capacity", but rather "standard capacity". All of the capacities you've listed have been issued for decades by the various militaries. Hello, nalioth Well, if you're talking about those ridiculous-looking 50 and 75 round stick mag's, no, I don't have any of those. The "standard" 30 round, and occasional 40 round mag's I was referring to are hi-cap per the recent AWB, and the looming resurgence of said AWB/"Hi-Cap" mag ban was the context from which I was speaking. Those mag's are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain, thanks to our bud "Hussein" Obama. Although, I don't believe I even listed any capacities for any mag's other than the "bench" mag's in my original post.... Respectfully as well.... guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 It depends on what you consider high-cap. Laws consider 30 rounds to be high-cap, and to be honest, i think just because high-cap is standard in military use doesn't mean it's standard cap. So IMO that's just nitpicking, guido wasn't incorrect or anything, though i wouldnt call military mags high-cap, that sounds too commercial for my taste. Besides, if 75 and 100 round drums still aren't high-cap enough for you nalioth, something's wrong Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acercanto 6 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Buying a skunk and calling it your pet cat doesn't make it smell any different. And to that I say: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/687162102.html Acer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Buying a skunk and calling it your pet cat doesn't make it smell any different. And to that I say: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/687162102.html Acer .... and to spiral further into offtopicness . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jailbait 2 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 send me a pm before you try and part it out..... please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norty 13 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Hey guido2, check this link & see if it helps you out. http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&...74&t=106997 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Are you using a buffer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Leo.Kermes 1 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Hello I purchased a 7.62x.39 Saiga 16" about four months ago (maybe longer) and the POS is still unshootable. I've spent more time on it than any of my conversions, more $$$ that any except my S12's, and I'm really aggravated that I bought the lump of feces. I got it 'cause I have a buttload of AK mag's and ammo, which were purchased for my Red Jacket AK pistol. I figured I'd go ahead and get a rifle, since I had a spare IOR scope and mount, and more ammo than I'd ever shoot through my pistol. Well, the worthless piece of shit hasn't cycled two rounds in a row yet. The bolt slides over the end of the fresh cartridge, gouges the shell and wedges the round between the bolt and the breech. I thought it might be the fact that I screwed up and trimmed too much off the mag catch and the mag's were sitting too low in the receiver. So, I ordered a new catch and pin from K-Var and installed it today (kind of a PIA in itself...) and trimmed it by microns with the flat side of a dremmel wheel until one of the four different mag's I had on the bench would lock in, and then, only if I forced the catch home with my finger. The other three mag's (all four are new, or virtually so) wouldn't even lock in yet. Not a bit of play in the mag, and the same lame horse shit with the failure to pick up a new round. Trimmed a hair more off so the other three would lock in, same shit So, I'm pretty well convinced that the problem is some vodka-soaked assembly issues....(not me!) Apparently, the bolt guide is just too high, or the mag seats are too low. What really sucks is this POS is already converted, with Dinzag-supplied muzzle-threading and crowning, etc. I have a feeling I'm pretty much SOL with RAA since I've pretty much altered the hell outa it. Anybody have a similar experience with a fully converted Saiga? I guess my only recourse is to cross my fingers and roll the dice with a replacement, and swap what can be swapped, re-do what I have to re-do (like the muzzle threading/crowning) and hope tha same sorry SOB didn't work on the next one I buy. I was never really enthusiastic about the .39 load (I got into Saiga's 'cause they made .308 AK's) and this BS has really soured me. I know I could get Surefire mag's or whatever and forego the guide/mag catch mod's, but the reason I went this route was to utilize the 50 or so mag's (and Norinco drums) that I already have. Vent OFF One good reason to shoot 'yer stuff before you modify it, I reckon..... guido2 in Houston Does the serial number on the bolt carriage match the gun's number, I had a customer buy both a 223 and a x39, she showed up at the shop with a story of sadness, say her gun worked great the first time out but never again. then she describe the same thing as you experienced. it turned out she cleaned both guns at the same time and put the 223 bolt carriage in the x39. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Hello I purchased a 7.62x.39 Saiga 16" about four months ago (maybe longer) and the POS is still unshootable. I've spent more time on it than any of my conversions, more $$$ that any except my S12's, and I'm really aggravated that I bought the lump of feces. I got it 'cause I have a buttload of AK mag's and ammo, which were purchased for my Red Jacket AK pistol. I figured I'd go ahead and get a rifle, since I had a spare IOR scope and mount, and more ammo than I'd ever shoot through my pistol. Well, the worthless piece of shit hasn't cycled two rounds in a row yet. The bolt slides over the end of the fresh cartridge, gouges the shell and wedges the round between the bolt and the breech. I thought it might be the fact that I screwed up and trimmed too much off the mag catch and the mag's were sitting too low in the receiver. So, I ordered a new catch and pin from K-Var and installed it today (kind of a PIA in itself...) and trimmed it by microns with the flat side of a dremmel wheel until one of the four different mag's I had on the bench would lock in, and then, only if I forced the catch home with my finger. The other three mag's (all four are new, or virtually so) wouldn't even lock in yet. Not a bit of play in the mag, and the same lame horse shit with the failure to pick up a new round. Trimmed a hair more off so the other three would lock in, same shit So, I'm pretty well convinced that the problem is some vodka-soaked assembly issues....(not me!) Apparently, the bolt guide is just too high, or the mag seats are too low. What really sucks is this POS is already converted, with Dinzag-supplied muzzle-threading and crowning, etc. I have a feeling I'm pretty much SOL with RAA since I've pretty much altered the hell outa it. Anybody have a similar experience with a fully converted Saiga? I guess my only recourse is to cross my fingers and roll the dice with a replacement, and swap what can be swapped, re-do what I have to re-do (like the muzzle threading/crowning) and hope tha same sorry SOB didn't work on the next one I buy. I was never really enthusiastic about the .39 load (I got into Saiga's 'cause they made .308 AK's) and this BS has really soured me. I know I could get Surefire mag's or whatever and forego the guide/mag catch mod's, but the reason I went this route was to utilize the 50 or so mag's (and Norinco drums) that I already have. Vent OFF One good reason to shoot 'yer stuff before you modify it, I reckon..... guido2 in Houston Does the serial number on the bolt carriage match the gun's number, I had a customer buy both a 223 and a x39, she showed up at the shop with a story of sadness, say her gun worked great the first time out but never again. then she describe the same thing as you experienced. it turned out she cleaned both guns at the same time and put the 223 bolt carriage in the x39. Good idea, Leo I don't have a .223, but it certainly could have happened at the factory. The more I think about it, for the bolt to properly index with the breech, it seems that the problem would have to be height of inserted mag (mag seating surface too low) or the bolt diameter too small. If the bolt itself were mounted too high, it seems it would not mesh with the breech....Make any sense? -I will check numbers tomorrow. Thanks, guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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