Well I can't have what I really want.

[hallboss 1]

I really want a Taurus Judge, but in California they are illegal. I don't care for revolvers, but in the case of the Judge, I was going to make an exception.

 

So I am looking for a high-"er" power handgun and since I don't like revolvers that leaves me with some limited caliber choices. I love the 40 (I have a G22 and a XD-40 and I also have a small frame 45), but I am looking for something with a little more omph for backup during hunting. I think my best choice is the G20 10mm, however I have heard some people comment that the 10mm is a hot .40 with not that much more power and I have heard other people say the 10mm is a bear killer with more power than a 357 mag and almost as much power as a 44 mag.

 

Ballistics for the 10mm are pretty impressive.

10mm- 1290fps 650lbs

.357mag 1250fps 530lbs

.44mag 1250fps 730lbs

.40ca 1205fps 500lbs

.45acp 1000fps 400lbs

 

According to those numbers, the 10mm is the ultimate auto ammo. But we know numbers lie, I would like to point out the numbers for the 45. I am not a fan of the 45 and love the 40, but I don't think there is that big of a difference between the two ammos.

 

So any real world experience would be appreciated.

Thanks

[acercanto 6]

Heh, I know 1911 (Flying Ashtray Guy) will have something to chime in about .45...

All I can add is that I'm a fan of .40 too.

 

Acer

[hallboss 1]

I love the 40, but I am trying to outfit myself for hunting and I thought the 10 would be a good caliber.

 

I have my rifle and now I am looking for a good sidearm and a short range "rifle" or slug gun.

 

BTW all the ballistics data I used was from Winchester Super X ammo.

 

As far as the .45, I honest to God investigated an attempted murder about five years ago, where a guy was shot in the forehead at an angle from 10 feet with a 45. The round glanced off, we all thought he was shot with a .32 or something slow like that until we found the casing. Probably an anomoly, but it happened. Pretty steep angle though, it left about a 4" gash across his forehead.

Edited December 15, 2008 by hallboss

[Twinsen 86]

Larger frontal area = more damage. I don't give a shit what the muzzle energy is. Hollowpoint 10mm is probably the nastiest pistol round you can get hit with though, besides the ridiculous huge ones.

 

And I have to know, why is the Judge illegal in California? I can't wait to hear this bullshit.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Glock 20 in 10MM. I really want one...... and all the reloading equipment to load them as they were meant to be....HOT!!!!

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

I see nothing wrong with the 10mm that money won't cure. I had a 10mm FBI test pistol by S&W and sold it years ago because it wasn't my cup of tea. Handloads will get you the numbers you're looking for and the factory loads will be at a premium and lack the availability or .45acp. I still have about 1,000 rounds laid back with no weapon in that caliber. When I want more "ooomph" than the .45acp I use a L.A.R. Grizzly in .45 WinMag. If I wanted a 10mm I would check out the Dan Wesson Razorback http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product...oducts_id/21715 . I would personally be leery of firing a high power cartridge out of a Glock for what to me are obvious reasons. (that said, folks do it) It is a fine cartridge that the FBI decided against because of the issue of female agents using it. If you like it and it fits into your scheme of things then go for it. As far as backup when hunting, I would have to ask what you are hunting that you would need a backup for? Unless it is likely to bite back (i.e. - bear) I fail to see the need. If you are shooting at bear with anything less that .45 WinMag then you are either foolhardy or have bigger balls than folks who have done it. Just another opinion that is worth what it cost you.

 

1911

 

This post is from another board -

"Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

 

+1...2...3...oh hell +10!

 

Although I do like the 10mm, if you do not have a 45, OMG man get a 45! Unless you reload 10mm will pale in performance and cost.

 

Many show stats for the 45acp then show double tap ammos stats for 10mm. The 45+P loads from double tap come close to loads for the 45 Super.

 

If you reload, the 45 Super is a KICK ASS! If you are manly enough there is the 460 Rowland that can throw out a 185gr pill at over 1500fps! Out of a 5 inch barrel this exceeds 44mag performance for barrel length.

 

The 10mm can be stout, there is no doubt. But for the good stuff you are either restricted to buying expensive ammo, and usually only online, or reloading.

 

So if you don't reload the 460 Rowland/45 Super/10mm are pretty much out of the question.

 

a 45 acp in most loadings 185-230gr will put a nice big hole in someone if you need it. Ammo is readily available pretty much anywhere."

[termite 463]

Take a look at the 454 Casull. It's a revolver, but still fun to shoot, and for the limp wristed ones, you can shoot the 45 LC in it so it doesn't hurt so bad. :) I carry mine from time to time in a shoulder holster.

[hallboss 1]

Larger frontal area = more damage. I don't give a shit what the muzzle energy is. Hollowpoint 10mm is probably the nastiest pistol round you can get hit with though, besides the ridiculous huge ones.

 

And I have to know, why is the Judge illegal in California? I can't wait to hear this bullshit.

 

The judge is illegal because it is pistol that can be used to fire a shotgun shell. In California if it shoots a shotgun shell, then it must only shoot a shotgun shell and visa versa with a pistol and a rifle. You cannot have a "mixed" type firearm in California.

[hallboss 1]

I see nothing wrong with the 10mm that money won't cure. I had a 10mm FBI test pistol by S&W and sold it years ago because it wasn't my cup of tea. Handloads will get you the numbers you're looking for and the factory loads will be at a premium and lack the availability or .45acp. I still have about 1,000 rounds laid back with no weapon in that caliber. When I want more "ooomph" than the .45acp I use a L.A.R. Grizzly in .45 WinMag. If I wanted a 10mm I would check out the Dan Wesson Razorback http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product...oducts_id/21715 . I would personally be leery of firing a high power cartridge out of a Glock for what to me are obvious reasons. (that said, folks do it) It is a fine cartridge that the FBI decided against because of the issue of female agents using it. If you like it and it fits into your scheme of things then go for it. As far as backup when hunting, I would have to ask what you are hunting that you would need a backup for? Unless it is likely to bite back (i.e. - bear) I fail to see the need. If you are shooting at bear with anything less that .45 WinMag then you are either foolhardy or have bigger balls than folks who have done it. Just another opinion that is worth what it cost you.

 

1911

 

This post is from another board -

"Just for grins you could research the .45 Super or .451 Detonics or .450SMC or .460 Rowland which btw can all trump the 10mm!

 

+1...2...3...oh hell +10!

 

Although I do like the 10mm, if you do not have a 45, OMG man get a 45! Unless you reload 10mm will pale in performance and cost.

 

Many show stats for the 45acp then show double tap ammos stats for 10mm. The 45+P loads from double tap come close to loads for the 45 Super.

 

If you reload, the 45 Super is a KICK ASS! If you are manly enough there is the 460 Rowland that can throw out a 185gr pill at over 1500fps! Out of a 5 inch barrel this exceeds 44mag performance for barrel length.

 

The 10mm can be stout, there is no doubt. But for the good stuff you are either restricted to buying expensive ammo, and usually only online, or reloading.

 

So if you don't reload the 460 Rowland/45 Super/10mm are pretty much out of the question.

 

a 45 acp in most loadings 185-230gr will put a nice big hole in someone if you need it. Ammo is readily available pretty much anywhere."

 

 

I'm glad you posted, you are probably one of the most educated when it comes to ammo especially handgun.

 

When I speak of a backup weapon, I do not mean that in the strictest sense of back up. I mean it for hunting pig and maybe have a close range shot, or my rifle is slung or the shot would just be easier with a sidearm. As well as where I hunt is in moutain lion country. Although being attacked is highly unlikely.

 

With that said, I am accurate with a auto and the glock/XD feel like an extension of my arm. A revolver, not so much...If I could shoot a revolver with some assemelance of consistancy, I would go for a .460 Smith in a heart beat.

 

When you stated using a higher powered round out of a glock for "obvious reasons" what did you mean by that?

 

As far as reloading, there are some things I leave to professionals and the highly trained, reloading is one of them. I'll strip a $60k Nitro injected motor down and put it back together in a parking lot, but measuring grains of powder and trusting I didn't screw up, is enough to drive me to medication....lol......so I am pretty much stuck with factory loads.

 

In the interest of fairness, when I posted those ballistics, I used Winchester Super X with bullet weight a close as possible.

 

 

Thanks

[flclisgreat 0]

his "obvious reasons" are,(my guess) is he doesn't like large calibers out of plastic guns.

[Vultite 57]

10mm is a great gun, but get a better 10mm then the glock, like say the colt delta....

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

My obvious reason is two-fold. Number one is that the Glock barrels are unsupported at the 6 o'clock position which leads to swelling of the case and in the case of +P, +P+ or hot homeloads sometimes a catastrophic failure. My second is that for the Glocks to be as totally reliable as they are they must of necessity have loose tolerances. IMO these two combined would keep me from ever having a Glock for use with a higher pressure cartridge. My daughter has a Model 21 (I think) that I gave her. (Full size .45acp) Before I gave it to her though it had a Bar-Sto barrel in it. I just wasn't comfortable with anything less. I also wasn't comfortable giving her a 2-3K custom pistol either. I really think that you would enjoy a revolver in that specific application: If you can find someplace that will rent them for you to try out and find one that is suitable to you. The cartridge choice is much more wide open in the revolver as Termite said there is the .454 Casull as well as cartriges all the way up to the 45-70 Govt. Good luck and take your time. If you will not hurrry, you should end up with a pistol/revolver that will serve you the rest of your life. Personally I would want something stouter than the 10mm for a Mountain Lion but it would be fine for a Bobcat imo.

 

1911

Edited December 16, 2008 by 1911

[hallboss 1]

Thanks for the info and most of my dislike for a revolver is mostly that I have no idea how to shoot one properly and they feel canted forward in my hand.

[Azrial 1,091]

I have two Glock 20 in 10mm and two Glock 21 in .45 ACP. I like both a lot but the 10mm is the ultimate in combat handgun cartridges. It is however, correctly loaded, an experts pistol. The recoil is more then the average pistol shooter will take the time to learn to master. That is what the FBI kept loading it down, till it was nothing but a .40 long.

 

Do not let the irrational "Glock Hatred" of others sway you. Many hate Glock for the reason that many hate Microsoft, it is popular to hate the "big dog." The 10mm is a high pressure round the Delta is a poor gun in 10. In 10mm I would only go with a Glock, or a Smith.

 

I carried two G20s on duty for a few years when I could make my own decision about what I carried.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Just to clarify; I am not a "Glock Hater". As I said, I bought my daughter one with a certain modification. I have a very dear friend who is a metallugist and is an expert witness. He is currently involved in a case with Glock due to one of the catastrophic failures I mentioned. I think it is clearly up to each individual to review whatever relevant facts are presented and make their own decision concerning what they want. Your having four Glocks (in 10mm & .45acp) that you have been entirely satisfied with is certainly a relevant point. Not the only relevant point, but simply a relevant point. Thank you for joining the conversation.

 

1911

[hallboss 1]

Purely on opinion alone, I love Glocks. I own a G22, which was what I carried during my career and as I stated before, auto's feel more natural in my hand. I am going to do more research on the G20, but seeing I will be using box rounds I don't see how there could be a problem. For now though, I am pretty easily swayed because I am uneducated with higher powered handgun rounds and cannot pose an intelligible argument for or against higher powered rounds.

 

As far as the G20 being an experts pistol, I qualified as "Expert Marksman" with my department every 6 months. Does that qualify me with the ability to shoot any pistol? No, but I would hope that I have a leg up when I grab this thing for the first time.

 

All this being said, it doesn't change the fact I really need to learn how to handle a revolver properly.

 

Azrial-how does the recoil relate to other higher powered loads. i.e. .40+P (Winchester Ranger)? Is it uncomfortable after 50, 100 rounds. How difficult are failure drills or target reaquisition?

 

1911-The failure that you are speaking of, what happened? Was it a hot load, improperly reloaded round and metal related failure? Design flaw?

 

Thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate the valuble info.

Edited December 16, 2008 by hallboss

[hallboss 1]

1911, I just saw that you have some ammo that you don't use .

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

1911-The failure that you are speaking of, what happened? Was it a hot load, improperly reloaded round and metal related failure? Design flaw?

The case is currently in court and I am not privy to all the details. I will say that this gentlemen is 68 yrs. old and when he approached me about what type of pistols to get for him and his wife he summarily rejected the option of a Glock: Due entirely to the case he is currently on. Does that make all Glocks bad? Absolutely not! It simply says that with his knowledge of metallurgy and whatever this case involves, he is not comfortable owning one. He/She have never had a pistol and I thought the Glock due to its simplicity might be a good option. We had to take another route. I thought the idea of a pistol that you simply pick up, pull the trigger and it goes bang (every time) was a good one. Apparently not for him. (I do have a personal preference that goes against non-metal pistols but even I own a LCP) All I know or think I know for now.

 

1911

[SOPMOD 254]

10mm is a great gun, but get a better 10mm then the glock, like say the colt delta....

 

WTF? My first 10mm was a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and it didn't make it through 6 boxes of ammo before the hammer shearing off and leaving me a nasty little scar on my right eyebrow.It would have put my eye out if it was any lower.

 

No offense towards Vultite(or 1911) but do not buy a Colt Delta Elite 10mm if you plan on shooting "full house" 10mm loads.

 

BTW All of my Glocks are 9mm but Ted Nugent has been using the same Glock 20 for years, taking medium sized game on 3 continents with the hottest ammo available and seems to swear by them.

[Vultite 57]

they must not be "stock" glocks then, b/c i've been at the range when one blows its top and its not pretty, about shit myself and i was glad i was reloading my magazine b/c others who were shooting almost dropped their guns they freaked out so much. The guy used +P ammo and kabang! I had a glock 21C, great gun, natural shooter, low recoil, but fat, hard to conceal and un-supported barrel. I like the colt delta b/c its slimmer, but i haven't ever heard of one breaking the hammer off, really sucks, 10mm is a powerhouse round, so guess a G20 would work, get a barrel to be safe...

[hallboss 1]

Thanks for the advice guys, right now I am looking into all of my options for my purpose (light hunting, mostly backup). I was leaning toward the 10mm, because of my love for auto's and the Glock, well because to me it is the ultimate handgun. However, now that I have been educated by all of you here and other people I know, I am probably better off "getting over myself" and becoming more proficient with a revolver. If I do this, I can actually buy a caliber that will do the job instead of a caliber that fits a auto and would otherwise be a "band-aid."

 

I have been looking into the Taurus Raging Bull .454. Great price and it can chamber the .44 mag and the .454.

 

But before I go and spend the money on that, I will pratice with a buddies .357.

Thanks again guys

Darin

[termite 463]

Hallboss, the raging bull will chamber the 45LC and 454, I'm pretty sure the 44mag will not work. I shoot the 300gr XTP in 454 in mine, nice little kick, so you might consider a glove if you shoot many 454 shells, I think that the 45LC that I have in the safe are 230gr, or somewhere in that range. I'm only 5'6" and can shoot it one handed with the 45LC, but better hold on to it with 454. I've never dropped it, but a couple of times, wished I had. :) You may also consider looking into the lever action rifles chambered in 454, mine is a Puma and shoots just fine, kicks like a mule, but that's the fun of it, Oh yeh, and the big holes that it makes in things.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Guncrafters 50GI upper on a Glock 20 or 21 looks like a sweet deal to maybe check into once.

 

Especially with New Jersey's proposed 50 caliber ban making the rounds now. A real liberal's "piss off" pistol.

[hallboss 1]

Hallboss, the raging bull will chamber the 45LC and 454, I'm pretty sure the 44mag will not work. I shoot the 300gr XTP in 454 in mine, nice little kick, so you might consider a glove if you shoot many 454 shells, I think that the 45LC that I have in the safe are 230gr, or somewhere in that range. I'm only 5'6" and can shoot it one handed with the 45LC, but better hold on to it with 454. I've never dropped it, but a couple of times, wished I had. :) You may also consider looking into the lever action rifles chambered in 454, mine is a Puma and shoots just fine, kicks like a mule, but that's the fun of it, Oh yeh, and the big holes that it makes in things.

Taurus Raging Bull 454

 

Maybe I am reading the description wrong, because I thought the same thing you said. The way they have the description written it looks like it will chamber 44 and 454. Like I professed earlier, I know nothing (or at least very little) about revolvers so I could very well be reading this wrong.

 

Thanks

Darin

[Norty 13]

Take a look at the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan. Its designed to be the gun that you are looking for. It shoots .454 & 45LC & has the beefy Houge Grip...your gonna need it too. The Alaskan also holds 6 rounds instead of 5.

[bayonet lug 1]

EAA also has a 10mm. 10mm is IMHO the best (non-wildcat) tactical round made. 180gr at 1350 or 200gr at 1200 . Its a shame its dying off.

 

 

 

And BTW with the glock you got 15+1. Cant do that with a revolver.

Edited December 18, 2008 by bayonet lug

[Azrial 1,091]

Just to clarify; I am not a "Glock Hater". As I said, I bought my daughter one with a certain modification. I have a very dear friend who is a metallugist and is an expert witness. He is currently involved in a case with Glock due to one of the catastrophic failures I mentioned. I think it is clearly up to each individual to review whatever relevant facts are presented and make their own decision concerning what they want. Your having four Glocks (in 10mm & .45acp) that you have been entirely satisfied with is certainly a relevant point. Not the only relevant point, but simply a relevant point. Thank you for joining the conversation.

 

1911

Glad to hear that you are not driven by irrational hatred! I did not think that you were. My comment was not addressed at you personally.

 

I am an expert witness myself in three states. Like most expert witnesses I am approached from time to time to give testimony in a case. I am paid usually paid for this service. Sometimes lawyers want me to testify to support a theory that I personally fail to agree with. I don't take these cases, but they always seem to find someone who will.

 

I have also noticed that my 1911's seem to lack some support at the 6 O'clock position, including a Detonics Mark V in .451 Detonics. Don't yours?

 

Few will argue that the 1911, wonderful pistol that it is, is the best suited design for a high pressure round. The .451 Detonics round addresses this very shortcoming by using cut down .308 brass!

 

Rounds like the 450SMC, .460 Rowland and .500 S&W are for hunting and competition handguns, unsuitable for combat and personal defense applications in my opinion. Not that some won't try and use them.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Azrial

[termite 463]

You are correct, the link does state 44 magnum, but the one I have, has only ever shot 45LC and 454. I'll do some more checking.

 

OK, I checked and the 44mag case is .457 dia., the 454 and 45LC are .480 dia., So it may be a little sloppy in the chamber and split the case, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited December 18, 2008 by termite

[mstranglr 9]

I shoot my G20 often and realy like it, but if you want the ultimate hunting auto, go Desert Eagle! I got to shoot a GI .50 last year too.

[Saigaczech 9]

My obvious reason is two-fold. Number one is that the Glock barrels are unsupported at the 6 o'clock position which leads to swelling of the case and in the case of +P, +P+ or hot homeloads sometimes a catastrophic failure. My second is that for the Glocks to be as totally reliable as they are they must of necessity have loose tolerances. IMO these two combined would keep me from ever having a Glock for use with a higher pressure cartridge. My daughter has a Model 21 (I think) that I gave her. (Full size .45acp) Before I gave it to her though it had a Bar-Sto barrel in it. I just wasn't comfortable with anything less. I also wasn't comfortable giving her a 2-3K custom pistol either. I really think that you would enjoy a revolver in that specific application: If you can find someplace that will rent them for you to try out and find one that is suitable to you. The cartridge choice is much more wide open in the revolver as Termite said there is the .454 Casull as well as cartriges all the way up to the 45-70 Govt. Good luck and take your time. If you will not hurrry, you should end up with a pistol/revolver that will serve you the rest of your life. Personally I would want something stouter than the 10mm for a Mountain Lion but it would be fine for a Bobcat imo.

 

1911

 

Actually the GLock 21 and 30 models are quite nice with the stock barrel. I won several GSSF Major SubCompact divisions with the Glock 30, ended up winning three guns and getting my master classification in GSSF. The .45 ACP is a low pressure round in standard 230 gr factory loading and quite reliable and accurate for what the gun was designed to do, self-defense. I have not seen any major problems with the brass thickness yet for reloads. Now a 10mm, .357 SIG or a .40 S&W chambering in a Glock is asking for trouble due to unsupported chamber. Can you say exploding tupperware?

 

 

As to a back up hunting pistol I would go with a caliber like a .357 magnum in a 4" revolverat a minimum. If you have bear or cougar in your area, nothing less then a .45 Long Colt or .44 Magnum, again in a 4" revolver with heavy loads. Bring enough gun. Remember, at close range you may only have time for one shot, make it count. IF expecting bear remove the front sights and make sure it is well greased. That way it wont hurt too much when the bear shoves it up your ***.