corynewman 0 Posted December 27, 2008 Report Share Posted December 27, 2008 I hope that there is someone out there that can help me. I bought a S12 and did the conversion to pistol grip, stock, trigger, etc... It would not cycle anything at first, so I read some forums and went to work. The barrel only had two gas ports, so I drilled a third and increased the size of the others by 1/32". Then I took the regulator and slightly increased the angle to allow more gas and for better alignment in #2 position. I still could not cycle anything in semi-automatic mode. So I clipped off about 3.5 coils off the spring. I can now cycle Winchester Super X 00 Buck-2 3/4" without problem. I can also cycle slugs-basically anything that is high brass. I want to cycle the cheap wally world stuff, but at best it will not eject (Winchester Super X 4 Shot-2 3/4") All this in number 2 position. I do not have a chance cycle anything in position 1. Any suggestions? I am at witts end! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I just got one... and it will cycle the cheap low base stuff on setting number 2 as fast as I can pull the trigger. Thats RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX! If you were to take a picture of me, I bet you could catch 4 hulls in the air! Dunno why you are having such problems! Thats messed up! seems like you did all you could to make it work better... and it just doesnt... I would say run a shitload of 3" magnum slugs through it... to get it all broken in... might just do the trick! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bf2rules141 3 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) did you put in a U.S. gas piston??? is it jamming??? Edited December 28, 2008 by bf2rules141 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SamSeven 0 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) Geez man, that sucks! Mine also worked fine out of the box. Remington 3" Mag 00 buck ran great, and the hulls were tossed from the bench all the way down the short pistol range (10 or so yards), on setting 1. On setting 2, the gun cycles my low brass 1-1/8 oz 4 year old reloads! Edited December 28, 2008 by SamSeven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 is the gas regulator ( the screw thing that holds the "puck" in) screwed all the way down? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 First of all, if I got one of those guns with only two ports, I'd send the damned thing back to RAAC and ask for replacement. That's BS that all these defective guns are in circulation. If not then.... It should have had four holes. Have you thought about adding two more, or is there no room left? Also, are you sure your gas block isn't covering, or partially covering the holes you do have? Have you considered modding the bolt and carrier like this? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33224 Anywhere you can cut down resistance and friction = very good.... Good luck and keep us posted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacksoncustomshop 0 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I don't know if RAAC would take the gun back now that you have drilled and customized it. Its worth a try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 It should have had four holes. Have you thought about adding two more, or is there no room left? It would not cycle anything at first, so I read some forums and went to work. The barrel only had two gas ports, so I drilled a third and increased the size of the others by 1/32". Then I took the regulator and slightly increased the angle to allow more gas and for better alignment in #2 position. After the modifications the OP made, there is little chance that RAAC will accept it back, as he has modified it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Pull your bolt all the way back, ride the bolt home, SLOWLY. Does it stick when the bolt and bolt-carrier are above/behind the hammer? If so you need to reduce the hammer's height. The Tapco G2 trigger's Hammer has ALOT more profile than is necessary, you may be getting a ton of extra resistance on the hammer as the bolt goes back. Cutting the spring isn't good when you need as much power as necessary to go forward. Reducing friction and resistance on the way back is the key. Compare G2 hammer to the stock hammer and make the profiles similar. You'll see a huge difference, i know i did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swany 1 Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Pull your bolt all the way back, ride the bolt home, SLOWLY. Does it stick when the bolt and bolt-carrier are above/behind the hammer? If so you need to reduce the hammer's height. The Tapco G2 trigger's Hammer has ALOT more profile than is necessary, you may be getting a ton of extra resistance on the hammer as the bolt goes back. Cutting the spring isn't good when you need as much power as necessary to go forward. Reducing friction and resistance on the way back is the key. Compare G2 hammer to the stock hammer and make the profiles similar. You'll see a huge difference, i know i did. I agree that there's something else causing friction. I have a 2 holed gun and fired it today for the first time. Shoots in position 1 and 2....00buck express and slugs... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Pull your bolt all the way back, ride the bolt home, SLOWLY. Does it stick when the bolt and bolt-carrier are above/behind the hammer? If so you need to reduce the hammer's height. The Tapco G2 trigger's Hammer has ALOT more profile than is necessary, you may be getting a ton of extra resistance on the hammer as the bolt goes back. Cutting the spring isn't good when you need as much power as necessary to go forward. Reducing friction and resistance on the way back is the key. Compare G2 hammer to the stock hammer and make the profiles similar. You'll see a huge difference, i know i did. Do NOT follow these instructions. The AK bolt carrier is not supposed to be 'slowly rode home'. You're supposed to let it fly. The difference in thickness (or 'height') of the G-2 hammer, compared to the factory Saiga hammer does indeed cause some extra drag on the bolt carrier....but everyone has known that for years. It's not just with Saigas either, first time I noticed that was 6 years ago when I replaced the crappy Century Arms FCG in my Maadi with a G-2. It is not enough added friction to make your gun malfunction. If you are having issues, you need to address them correctly, not take shortcuts and go messing around with the proven design of the FCG. If you grind your hammer face down to look like the Saiga one, you are quite possibly going to do at least one of two things.... 1. When you grind off the "excess height" of the hammer you are going to weaken the steel from it's currently hardened state, and you will soon notice a lot of wear on the hammer face from the bolt and firing pin. 2. If you take too much off the hammer face you may in fact end up with a runaway FA gun that will either get you locked up, or possibly even blow up in your face. I recently replaced a Tapco G-2 in a friend's 7.62x39 that this happened to BTW. It wasn't a butchered garage conversion either, it was done by a reputable company, they just screwed around with the wrong part too much. If you want to reduce the amount of drag on your bolt carrier some, sand and polish the bottom of it like the pics I provided in the link above. If you do anything to the hammer face at all, it should only be polished and lubed, not ground off an eighth inch or more... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c3006 2 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I agree polish is the only way to go here. c Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Get used to the two port guns guys - its factory standard now. HOWEVER - there are some cases where the dual ports do not line up properly with the gas block hole. This is easily checked with a pick or small allen wrench and a light. Remedying this is a little more complicated. Re-profiling a G2 hammer to match a stock saiga hammer is NOT wrong or dangerous to do, if the above is not the case! That is like saying when I get new shoes I should get them one size bigger and put more socks on my feet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 (edited) Cobra... I have a quick question. If reprofiling your hammer could ruin the heat-treat on it, then wouldn't a ramping/reprofiling of the underside of the bolt ruin the heat-treat on the bolt too? And wouldn't we all rather have a ruined heat-treat on our hammers than our bolts? Just a question, we all know that I'm the guy that's too afraid to cut rivets on his S-12. Also, Cornynewman, I do not remember how reliable my Saiga-12 was when I got it, but I left the bolt locked back whenever it was stored and I only used very heavy 3" stuff when I got it. I only used gas setting 1 as well. I believe in breaking semi autos in though, as many that I have gotten I noticed cycled unreliably the first 50-100 rounds. Paint gets knocked off places, things polish themselves, springs weaken, etc. Edited January 2, 2009 by Twinsen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
c3006 2 Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 There would be nothing wrong with recontoring your hammer as long as you reheatreated it. I have found that just polishing them very slick works very well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 There would be nothing wrong with recontoring your hammer as long as you reheatreated it. (and if you make sure not to remove too much) I have found that just polishing them very slick works very well. Exactly c3006...That's what I was trying to say. I didn't say it could not be done, I said it wasn't at all necessary and could possibly be dangerous....there are much more important things that need done if you have a gun with not enough gas flow. There are not any short cuts. You gotta knock or press the damn block off and do port surgery....period...or stick to shooting the same loads they use in Russia. Listen to what c3006 says if you don't trust me... Now there's someone talking who obviously has some experience...instead of someone just talking out their ASS, ... who happens to have no idea what they are doing except for what uncle Tom has held his wuttle hand and let him do....bigshot there gets the top secret info on things from the big cheese at RAAC, and whoever else will talk to him on the phone, then comes in here and tries to act like he actually knows something about Saiga conversions. Gimme a fuggin break! If you want to try and correct me on shit and make me look stupid like you, make sure you at least know what you are talking about ok? I know from actual experience with these things, ten times more than you will ever know from talking to people. Now go hold your little buddy's hand and leave me and my posts alone. Twinsen, I hear what you are saying about modding the cheapest, most replaceable part. That's always a good rule of thumb. However...I am not talking about removing anywhere near the amount of material from the bottom of the bolt carrier, as it would take to remove from the hammer face to make it just like the Saiga hammer. Nor am I talking about grinding on it at all and raising the temperature of it enough to make it lose it's temper. The only thing I do is carefully remove the top 'corners' of the plateau, I guess you could call it... and make it into more of a rounded smooth polished hump. I don't actually remove anything off the height. Even if you don't polish the hammer face at all, this will make it cycle a lot smoother and better. Look at the bottom of your carrier. When it's new it is painted black, along with the rails. Like you said...that shit adds friction. When a gun gets "broken in"..basically it's just got to the point where the paint is worn off it's metal contact surfaces, theyv'e polished themselves more or less, and the recoil spring has gotten worn and weakened some. As far as the mods to the bolt...yes, some material is removed and it's re contoured, but it'd done very slowly and is not heated up like someone might do if they put it to a grinding wheel. If anything that takes direct steel on steel hits (like the hammer does from the back of your bolt every time the weapon is fired) it has to be hardened or it's going to deform. The area of the bolt and carrier that I modify, and others who know what they are doing (Like TROMIX) does not take that kind of punishment anyway. If the mod is done correctly and carefully, no damage is done to the parts. Now back to what I was saying about not shaving too much (or any IMO) off the hammer face.... A good friend of mine, who you all know in fact...brought me a Saiga x39 that he had professionally converted by a licensed gunsmith, at a company thatyou are also familiar with. (Don't anyone even ask me because I'm not saying!) This Saiga went FA on him the first time he took it to the range. Lucky for him, it was a private range....and even more lucky for him, he didn't have an out of battery discharge from his gun dangerously slamfiring like that! He brought me a new Tapco FCG and asked me to show him how to install it....which I did. Before I did that though, I carefully examined the weapon to try and figure out what had gone so wrong. It took me about 30 seconds, after popping the dustcover. The guy who converted it had done exactly what saiganoobie said. He had taken the Tapco hammer and ground it, or milled it down to the point where there wasn't any resistance against the bolt carrier. Well, she sure was a slick as snot, wet dream of a smooth action! That's for damn sure! But there was a price to pay for that. The damned hammer wasn't being pushed down far enough to be grabbed by the disconnector! Why? Because someone didn't like the way it was grabbing and slowing the damned bolt carrier, that's why! Stick that in your little pipe and smoke it bvamp! When I try to help someone here, please keep your attitude and your stories about you socks and shoes to yourself please. Saiganoobie gave a new guy some BAD info. He's working at Gunsmoke part time now so he's suddenly become a guru. Well if you are going to give out advice to people on here, who probably shouldn't even be working on their own guns (not til they have spent a GREAT deal of time reading everything they can find about them here...ya know? there are a whole lot of people who come here every day and from hearing us talk about converting these things, they just think they can jump right in head first, with no experience or research...), then you had better make sure it's GOOD advice, or you might just find yourself responsible for something you wish you were not. RANT OFF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 ...in order to heat the hammer up enough to distemper the metal, you would have to not know what you are doing, and not be repeatedly placing the hammer in cold water as you go, to keep it cooled off. If you overground the hammer face, yeh it will not go back down far enough to engage the disconnect, but if you are matching to a saiga original hammer, this is pretty darned hard to do. If you do this correctly, you will be able to hold the part in your fingers as you work on it, as it will not be allowed to get hot enough to burn you, and thus....distemper the metal. If you grind the hammer face down to match the saiga shotgun hammer, you will have a 3 faceted face to the hammer. I am sure that everybody is aware that the internals of different makes of AKM pattern guns are actually all slightly different. This includes the bolt itself, as well as FCG components. In fetching various parts for Tom while in OH recently, I did get a chance to see side by side about oh, 12 different types of AK parts. Guess what/ they were all slightly different per manufactured region. In the grand scheme of Tapcos angle on making money on gun parts, do you not think that they accounted for these differences by making a universally shaped hammer, that may or may not be exactly like one that you are replacing, but can be made to fit and has material enough to shape to the original contour of said part? I also know that at least in our place of business, and I am SURE in just about every OTHER place of gunsmithing business, an expert checks every assembly for correct function, before and then AFTER test firing. It sounds like your friend's gun, James, came from somewhere where this important step was accidentally skipped, for whatever reason. So in short, yeh sure SaigaNoobie should have specified some of these details, but that doesnt mean that he is wrong with the solution. Note to him in the future - try to be as exact and specific as possible when dealing with modifying firearms and their components. For such a simple thing, this sure has gotten complicated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacksoncustomshop 0 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Get used to the two port guns guys - its factory standard now. How could this be a factory standard? Mine did not cycle ANYTHING and it only had two gas ports; and neither of them were blocked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Get used to the two port guns guys - its factory standard now. How could this be a factory standard? Mine did not cycle ANYTHING and it only had two gas ports; and neither of them were blocked. If it's the "standard," then I would simply ask RAA to send me one without blockages (both my ports were partially blocked from what I could see) and I'll take it to a gunsmith and have two more ports added. Two ports just won't hack it. I think I'd rather wear the thing out from over boosting the system than risk FTE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Thats what the russians told the importer. This is an issue that is being worked on and worked out. They made them a little bigger, and saved a step in the manufacturing process by changing to two holes. Most of them seem to work fine, from what information I have gathered about it, with some wanting to be problem childs. Hopefully, while everyone is in the same place in a couple of weeks (shotshow) something can be worked out to fix this issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Cory, you've got good people guessing at things that may or may not help you. Can you go into detail on what the original problem was (failed to eject round, ejected-but failed to chamber second round)? What FCG parts did you use on your conversion, did you profile the hammer to match the original, new piston, are you using an aftermarket retaining plate or buffer? Compliance issues aside, you can reinstall the factory hammer and see if the carrier feels better to hand cycle or let go into battery and if possible test fire. How well versed are you with AK actions-knowing this will help people help you with the amount of detail required. Ben, this is the first I've heard of on the two port guns-is this on all versions (barrel lengths) and do you know the port size specs? Are they drilled front and back or side to side-interesting. Edited January 4, 2009 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Cory, you've got good people guessing at things that may or may not help you. Can you go into detail on what the original problem was (failed to eject round, ejected-but failed to chamber second round)? What FCG parts did you use on your conversion, did you profile the hammer to match the original, new piston, are you using an aftermarket retaining plate or buffer? Compliance issues aside, you can reinstall the factory hammer and see if the carrier feels better to hand cycle or let go into battery and if possible test fire. How well versed are you with AK actions-knowing this will help people help you with the amount of detail required. Ben, this is the first I've heard of on the two port guns-is this on all versions (barrel lengths) and do you know the port size specs? Are they drilled front and back or side to side-interesting. I know you're not talking to me 6500, but I have the same exact issues Corry does. Mine is NOT converted. I didn't change it at all. It's a 19" S-12. It began failing to eject right out of the box on both #1 and #2 settings - even with high brass rounds on #2. My ports are side by side and are NOT visible when I remove the piston. I had to stick a dental pic down there and feel for them. I think they are both partially obstructed, but since I can't see them, I can't really tell. I sent it back to RAA last week. They said they were expecting a new shipment soon and they thought some of them might be three and four hole models. If two holes is the new standard, then I'm not sure what to think (or do). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 6500 - there is only one model shotgun coming in now, the IZ-109. The holes are drilled from breech to muzzle, and Tom had told me how big they were several weeks ago when he noticed the issue, right now I cant remember for sure, but thought he said they were 1/32" bigger or something along those lines. Tom would be the one to ask for the actual #. The guns with partially blocked holes are DEFINATELY going to give issues to the end user. There is more information, but at this time, it is not being released to the public, until a plan/fix/solution is decided upon, by those that be. As soon as I have more information, and can release it, if the parties involved havent already done so, I will go ahead and release the details of whats been decided upon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GimmeLiberty 0 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Here is what I got from RAAC. "Sorry for the problem with your 12 gauge. The Russian factory retooled and were suppose to make the production process better. They made the 2 hole shotguns with bigger gas ports but they still don't do the job with some of our ammo. They are now making 3 hole and 4 hole shotguns. Both cycle fine. " He went on to tell me how to get an authorization to ship the shotgun back and he would send me out a new one. They paid shipping both ways. They responded REALLY fast and are genuinely determined to make things right. I was quite impressed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 ...There is more information, but at this time, it is not being released to the public, until a plan/fix/solution is decided upon, by those that be. As soon as I have more information, and can release it, if the parties involved havent already done so, I will go ahead and release the details of whats been decided upon. OMG! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 They responded REALLY fast and are genuinely determined to make things right. I was quite impressed. Thank You for the good words and the positive outlook on things, sir!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Just read the thread from the other Corry on the same issue, lots of good info. Give RAAC a call, sounds like it's well known to them at this point. Edited January 5, 2009 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ManOnFire 0 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) Guys, I just picked up my Saiga last week (in Phoenix, AZ) and it is a "2 holer." Here's my story about how I found out, and why I even cared how many holes there were . I take my new shotgun out of the box, break it down, and I polished every metal to metal contact I could reach, with the help of some threads on this forum. That made a noticeable difference even when hand cycling it. In addition, I CLP'd everything until it was nice and smooth (except the front part of the gas tube). This morning, I headed out to the range (45 minute drive, 40 degrees and pouring rain, but I HAD to fire that new shotgun). I get out to the range, eager to shoot, with my 300 rounds of Chinamart Federal, 2 3/4", 1 1/8 oz, 1200fps, 7.5 shot.....a 10 round magazine, and a smile on my face. Tap, rack, BANG!!!! but failure to eject. No problem...I saw this one on the forum...set the blind plug to 2 and try that shit again. Tap, Rack, BANG!!! Failure to eject. Rinse and repeat 25 times (1 box) and I instantly thought "It's the cheap Chinamart ammo" and proceeded, discouraged... but on a mission, to Bass Pro Shop, where I picked up: 1) Remington 2 3/4", 1325 fps, 00BK shot 2) Remington 2 3/4", 1oz, 1560 fps Sluggers 3) Kent, 3", 1 1/4 oz, 1300 fps, 2 shot 4) Winchester 2 3/4", 1 1/16, 1550 fps, 3 shot 5) Winchester 2 3/4", 1oz, 1600 fps rifled hollow point slugs 6) Winchester 2 3/4", 00BK shot All of these cycled just fine (2 stovepipes with #6, so that ammo is suspect still). This left me scratching my head....a 1 1/8oz@1200fps failed....but a 1 1/16oz@1550fps cycled fine?!? So I removed the blind plug and puck and shined a light down there.....sure enough...2 holes....now I'm no mathematician, but I'm thinking if I got 50% more gas by drilling another hole that lines up with the gas block, that should more than make up for the 300fps difference between these rounds and should, in turn, cause it to cycle even this cheap Chinamart sh*t. I have a few questions: 1) Should i go ahead and have the existing holes polished or slightly enlarged by a gunsmith? 2) Should I have a gunsmith drill a third hole the same size 3) Should I drill a third hole, exactly the same size, that lines up with the gas block 4) Should I remove the gas block to see if there is, in fact, a 3rd hole that is covered by the gas block? 5) Am I being completely f*cktarded and missing something obvious If number 4 is the case, is there a way to press the gas block forward, so the holes line up properly (i mean, is there a tolerance in terms of where it sits on the barrel)? Or am I relegated to drilling another hole or enlarging/polishing the existing holes? Thanks, for listening to the long winded story. -MoF Edited January 5, 2009 by ManOnFire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 we will see what happens in the course of the coming weeks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 If the gas block isn't mispositioned (and I assume it's not as it's pretty much dictated by the gas tube/ bolt carrier assembly length) I would try for four holes if you plan on doing it yourself, but I'd be inclined to get a 4 hole in the diamond configuration from RAAC. The deal is that in the diamond configuration, the plug setting 1 or 2 uncovers/covers ports to change the ammount of gas flow and I'm not sure of the effect your going to get by drilling additional holes that will now be in a square pattern from the pics I saw posted. One other question is that if the gas block is centered properly, but still blocking the exhisting ports, is there anything wrong with enlarging the transfer hole in the gas block to uncover the port holes drilled in the barrel? You can also try shining a light down the barrel or gas block to look for the holes, in the other thread T.R. and others pretty much nailed down a s/n area of concern that only have 2 ports. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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