Joeddox 1 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 First off I didn't even know there was a 12 round mag out. I must be slipping. But why the heck aren't 12 round mags they 922r compliant? (I'm guessing a spring or something isn't US made?) Why didn't they make them like the 10 round mags? Are the 10 round mags compliant still? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 As far as I know, the Surefire 12 round mags are all made in the USA. I'm not sure about the spring though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 The Surefire 12 (13) round mags contain (3) 922r compliance parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mollysman420 19 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) All my guns are made to be 922R comply with out mags so I dont have to have any worries? Edited January 21, 2009 by dragonwolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Springs are not countable 922r parts. Please familiarize yourself with the 922r law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 The Surefire mag body has a U.S. flag and "made in U.S." molded right into it. They also come with a card stating that the mags count as 3 922R compliance parts. Body, floorplate, and follower. Nothing else in the mag is a restricted part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joeddox 1 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So how does the 12 round mag make a stock saiga 12 non-compliant? Does it not have the same parts as a 10 round mag? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So how does the 12 round mag make a stock saiga 12 non-compliant? Does it not have the same parts as a 10 round mag? Saigas are imported as "sporting purpose firearms". When you slap a 10 or 12 round mag in a shotgun, the legislators have decreed that the weapon is no longer "sporting", and 922r must be complied with. Same for a rifle, if you use any mag of 11 round capacity or higher. If you want to use the aftermarket military type mags, adding a gas piston is a cheap and easy way to 922r compliance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 All my guns are made to be 922R comply with out mags so I dont have to have any worries? If you're Foreign part count is OK without mags, then you're good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So how does the 12 round mag make a stock saiga 12 non-compliant? Does it not have the same parts as a 10 round mag? The 10 rnd mag throws the Saiga 12 out of compliance also... The easy ways to get back to compliant: Polychoke US Gas Piston US Foregrip Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wheel 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So how does the 12 round mag make a stock saiga 12 non-compliant? Does it not have the same parts as a 10 round mag? The 10 rnd mag throws the Saiga 12 out of compliance also... The easy ways to get back to compliant: Polychoke US Gas Piston US Foregrip I was under the impression that the IZ-109 with threaded barrel contained 14 counted parts for 922r. Using a USA built Mag brings the count to 11. The simplest way to make it compliant by bringing the count down to 10 would then be to remove the thread protector on the end of the barrel. Yeah, I know... not the best idea, but it would work in a pinch if you want to go "test-fire" your new S12 while waiting on all the other USA made parts you'll surely have ordered already. I've ordered stuff, but haven't got it yet, and will be going out tomorrow with the thread protector removed for a quick test-fire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rodm1 2 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So how does the 12 round mag make a stock saiga 12 non-compliant? Does it not have the same parts as a 10 round mag? The 10 rnd mag throws the Saiga 12 out of compliance also... The easy ways to get back to compliant: Polychoke US Gas Piston US Foregrip I was under the impression that the IZ-109 with threaded barrel contained 14 counted parts for 922r. Using a USA built Mag brings the count to 11. The simplest way to make it compliant by bringing the count down to 10 would then be to remove the thread protector on the end of the barrel. Yeah, I know... not the best idea, but it would work in a pinch if you want to go "test-fire" your new S12 while waiting on all the other USA made parts you'll surely have ordered already. I've ordered stuff, but haven't got it yet, and will be going out tomorrow with the thread protector removed for a quick test-fire. The IZ-109 has 15 countable parts. http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 The IZ-109 has 15 countable parts.http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance No, it's only got 14. It does NOT come imported with a pistol grip, so you can uncheck that immediately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) Crap, I need a foregrip. I totally forgot. So that I'm compliant without my muzzlebrake. Edited January 22, 2009 by Twinsen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I don't believe a thread protector is considered a muzzle attachment. I think it's the threads themselves, with nothing welded over them, that push it up one more notch. It shouldn't matter whether you take it off or not. The gun has 14 countable parts including the threads (which open up the possibility of screwing on a Russian flash hider.....at least that's how I see it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I was looking at it with hate filled eyes today anyway. Propped up on the drum... looking awesome. I don't even know what's out there for HGs, I never looked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joeddox 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks everyone learned more then I thought this time. Maybe an admin could post the awesome link provided: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance So maybe people will be less confused with compliance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) Thanks everyone learned more then I thought this time. Maybe an admin could post the awesome link provided: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance So maybe people will be less confused with compliance. Maybe more people could actually read the 922r subforum. That link has been in it's own subforum there for some months, now. Edited January 22, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joeddox 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks everyone learned more then I thought this time. Maybe an admin could post the awesome link provided: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance So maybe people will be less confused with compliance. Maybe more people could actually read the 922r subforum. That link has been in it's own subforum there for some months, now. Buttons and check boxes seem more fun no? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) Thanks everyone learned more then I thought this time. Maybe an admin could post the awesome link provided: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance So maybe people will be less confused with compliance. Maybe more people could actually read the 922r subforum. That link has been in it's own subforum there for some months, now. Buttons and check boxes seem more fun no? I never said anything about buttons and checkboxes, just that the link you want the mods to post has ALREADY BEEN POSTED and is PRESENT IN IT'S OWN STICKY in our 922r section RIGHT FUC***G HERE Edited January 22, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joeddox 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks everyone learned more then I thought this time. Maybe an admin could post the awesome link provided: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance So maybe people will be less confused with compliance. Maybe more people could actually read the 922r subforum. That link has been in it's own subforum there for some months, now. Buttons and check boxes seem more fun no? I never said anything about buttons and checkboxes, just that the link you want the mods to post has ALREADY BEEN POSTED and is PRESENT IN IT'S OWN STICKY in our 922r section RIGHT FUC***G HERE My fault didn't know there was a Tech Section Subforums. I was just meaning that would be a good link at the top of the saiga 12 forum, but I guess everything has it's place. Thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Crap, I need a foregrip. I totally forgot. So that I'm compliant without my muzzlebrake. According to that chart, I'm at 7 parts (compliant) without my muzzlebrake, and 6 parts (more compliant) with it and if it counts as the attachment. I didn't realize that with a 5 round mag you weren't required to meet 922r. So that opens up 3 parts for me. I don't know how I figured I wasn't compliant, even with those other 3 parts. Hrm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joeddox 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Crap, I need a foregrip. I totally forgot. So that I'm compliant without my muzzlebrake. According to that chart, I'm at 7 parts (compliant) without my muzzlebrake, and 6 parts (more compliant) with it and if it counts as the attachment. I didn't realize that with a 5 round mag you weren't required to meet 922r. So that opens up 3 parts for me. I don't know how I figured I wasn't compliant, even with those other 3 parts. Hrm. Hey Twinsen who are you trying to convince now ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I didn't realize that with a 5 round mag you weren't required to meet 922r. That's only the case if you leave the FCG and sporter stock on the gun. As soon as you convert to an AK "Pistol grip" you're part of the club. If you actually use the mag in your compliance count that could mean you are illegal to use the factory mags since it removes 3 compliance parts... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Crap, I need a foregrip. I totally forgot. So that I'm compliant without my muzzlebrake. According to that chart, I'm at 7 parts (compliant) without my muzzlebrake, and 6 parts (more compliant) with it and if it counts as the attachment. I didn't realize that with a 5 round mag you weren't required to meet 922r. So that opens up 3 parts for me. I don't know how I figured I wasn't compliant, even with those other 3 parts. Hrm. Hey Twinsen who are you trying to convince now ;-) Well I put pictures up of it. So the internet and anyone watching. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 "Aww shit! Quick! I need to get a U.S. made Flashlight and U.S. made Front Sight post in order to get compliant! What if I swap the cleaning kit with a Pro-Shot?" Unfortunately this is how ridiculous this topic seems! We all try and help each other here, but if we are going to Wikipedia for a definitive source of info before searching here, we are going to be in a lot of trouble. All of this 922r information is posted multiple times on the forum (not just on the sticky). Even the online pictures of the Surefires show the welded-in U.S. flag. When someone posts a topic like this, it sends the wrong message to people that may not be as informed or read stuff here everyday. Maybe using the title "Are Surefire Mags 922r Compliant?", rather than making a statement with a question mark after it. For example, a similar Topic Title is: "Reading Saiga 12 Forum Posts causes Instant Death in Babies?" Note: Now I am guilty because I am bringing this post back to the top. Damnit! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wheel 0 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 For example, a similar Topic Title is: "Reading Saiga 12 Forum Posts causes Instant Death in Babies?" That literally had me LOL! Thanks for the heads up on the possible interpretations of the "barrel attachment" item for 922r. It doesn't seem logical that threads would meet the definition of "attachment," but better to be safe than sorry. I've seem more than one statute interpreted in a totally illogical manner, so I'll play the safe side on that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grammaton76 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks for the heads up on the possible interpretations of the "barrel attachment" item for 922r. It doesn't seem logical that threads would meet the definition of "attachment," but better to be safe than sorry. I've seem more than one statute interpreted in a totally illogical manner, so I'll play the safe side on that one. Actually, "threads" aren't the concern, it's "capacity to accept a flash hider". Do they make a flash hider for the Saiga-12? If not, threads wouldn't be a non-sporting feature. The really dicey thing is that even if they do make one, it's up to ATF as to whether or not to consider the whole gun non-sporting over the presence of a non-sporting feature. http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures Rumor mill has it they're going to reclassify the S12's as destructive devices sooner or later though... sure hope that doesn't happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 grammaton, there are two aspects of the flash suppressor. 1. Would the presence of a flash suppressor make the firearm nonsporting? If so, this means the entire firearm must comply with 922r (consist of no more than 10 parts as defined by the ATF. 2. Is a flash suppressor considered a muzzle attachment and thereby raise the parts count. I think it does. I'm not sure that other things that screw on do (choke tubes). BTW, Yes, there are foriegn/factory made slash suppressors (see rusmilitary.com - firearms - accessories about mid page). OK, now I'm on a soapbox. Let me preface the stuff below by saying, I don't know anyone who has been busted soley on these type of infractions. But I don't intend to test those waters and what I write is to try and help others avoid them too. All of this stuff is My Opinion. So, I don't know if we have an ATF created all inclusive list of what would take the Saiga12 out of the ranks of sporting firearm. What I've heard and accepted is that either a pistol grip or a mag > 5 rounds does so. This is implied because they allow them to be imported (and thereby in a sporting configuration) in that configuration. Maybe a flash suppressor will too? RonSwin had first hand conversations where the ATF allowed EAA to import shotguns that way as long as they agreed to not import the full capacity mags (otherwise they'd clamp down) and I'd guess that RAA got the same treatment? To configure your shotgun into a non sporting (i.e. use full cap mags and/or pistol grips) you have to lower the foriegn parts count. There is a well known letter where the ATF specified what the parts of a Saiga shotgun are. It was hosted over on soupbowl but that link seems dead. Anyways, long story short is that the shotgun isn't considered by the ATF to have a trunion (Answer was on ATF letter head over an ATF signature). As imported it has 13 parts. Possible exception are the threads, I don't know where anyone has gotten a definative answer as to what a muzzle attachment is from the ATF (point me to the documentation if you know of it please, I'm curious). IF your bbl has threads and foriegn attachments (chokes?) then you MAY have a 14 part shotgun. I've always thought a muzzle attachment was a flash suppressor, possibly a compensator. So, the only way you'd have a 14 part gun is if you had a foriegn flashsuppressor. My bbl is internally threaded for rem chokes, so this doesn't bother me and I've never really researched it. I'd NEVER consider using mags for 922r compliance if you are doing a pg conversion. If you do, you have not complied if you ever insert a foriegn made mag into the shotgun. In fact, owning foriegn mags could be construed as constructive intent and get you in trouble. Go the more accepted routes ... US stock, PG, FCG is the most typical. The piston and handguard can also be used. I'm guessing that similar logic holds for the flash hider. If you install a US muzzle device, but still own a foriegn muzzle device then you could get nailed via constructive intent. If converting, you are raising the part count by 1 (pistol grip) so make sure to account for it. So, to summarize. a.The wiki is NOT ACCURATE for saiga shotguns. b.Mags can't be 922r compliant. They can be US made parts, and they can lower your parts count IF YOU DON'T EVEN OWN ANY FORIEGN MAGS. b2. Muzzle devices might fall in the same class as MAGS. c.Dragonwolf has the right idea. Springs don't count (body, floorplate and follower only). d.Naolith had the best idea of all. Read the law, don't blindly rely on internet posers (me). Make sure you agree. Or, get yourself some good legal advice. Now you all can paypal me .02 cents. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I seem to remember the BATF classifying chokes as integral to a shotgun's barrel, and thus only 1 imported part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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