gripnS12 0 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 So today my boss offered me to go shooting with him at a local range. He too is a gun freek, and occasionally we would bring up the Saiga 12 when talking about guns etc etc. He was talking about buying one so he was curious to check it out and fire it. I decided to bring it with me so we could do so. I have put approx 500 rounds thru my S12 with not a hiccup, issue or problem what so ever. Including with the AGP mags, that I bought new (3). I fired off a mag off regular federal target load, they were impressed...and by this time a few people had turned to look over at what it was. Of course Im preaching about the reliability of it,how smooth it shoots etc. Then I loaded up a mag full of 3" winchester 00 buck....commonly found at walmart in small bulk packs. Then switched the gas setting as usual, explaining the high and low brass settings. I inserted the mag, released the bolt from the manual BHO and handed to him with a smile. He steps up takes aim, and BLAM! The mag basically explodes, and ammo goes flying. The mag body landed approx 20ft downrange. Needless to say, I almost crapped my pants. I was very worried he had been hurt by the "blast". He too was very unsure about what had happen. I thought KABOOM round. Inspected the rifle, all is well. Inspected the spent casing....again all is well. The firing stopped so I could retrieve my mag body and parts (lame). Follower, spring, floor plate etc all is in perfect shape. (follower says gen2) But the body itself is broken, and just for the record these mags look just as new as day 1 and were not abused in anyway. My question is, is this a manufacture flaw? Will AGP help me out seeing im out a $60 mag? Has this happened to anyone else? Im just glad no one was harmed today. My camera is crap and I apologize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 VERY same thing happend to me on the 19th with a never before fired 2nd gen AGP.... Keven at AGP stands by his stuff.. I have yet to contact him... I'm sure he will make it right.... Question was it real cold???? it was about 14 deg... I'm wondering if it's a "cold" thing.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 It's not a new thing for an S-12 after market "high cap" mag to destroy itself like that (exactly like that) when using 3" magnums like that, especially with a full load and on the very first shot. This is typically how it happens due to all the extra weight in the magazine, coupled with all that extra power. Was it cold where you were shooting? That can also make it happen. Contact AGP and explain what happened and they will take care of you. It's nothing that unusual or dangerous like a kaboom. The reason the parts went so far downrange is likely only because of that huge spring in there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 the AGP mags we stuck in the beast in OH, and ran 3" turkey loads down in FA held up, but they were gen 1's, and also were not stuck in the freezer prior to firing. One of them did like to cause a jam, with the 3" shells, from overmoulding on the mag body, however. you can see for yourselves, in "the devil dog vs the beast" video in our business section. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gripnS12 0 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Just to clarify, this is not the first time I have fired 3" shells thru it. And not the first time firing these bulk packs either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 There is a major significant amout of recoil difference between 3" Buckshot and every other 3" shell. I have had a few dozen customers and myself break these mags with the 3" 00 Buck. You can shoot the hottest 3" Turkey Loads, Duck Loads and every high velocity other 3" load you can name with no problem. The 3" Buck shot kills mags and my shoulder. Mine broke in the middle of summer on the 2nd shot around 95 deg. Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 VERY same thing happend to me on the 19th with a never before fired 2nd gen AGP.... Keven at AGP stands by his stuff.. I have yet to contact him... I'm sure he will make it right.... Question was it real cold???? it was about 14 deg... I'm wondering if it's a "cold" thing.... Has anyone ever known a 5 round mag to break like this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gripnS12 0 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 It's not a new thing for an S-12 after market "high cap" mag to destroy itself like that (exactly like that) when using 3" magnums like that, especially with a full load and on the very first shot. This is typically how it happens due to all the extra weight in the magazine, coupled with all that extra power. Was it cold where you were shooting? That can also make it happen. Contact AGP and explain what happened and they will take care of you. It's nothing that unusual or dangerous like a kaboom. The reason the parts went so far downrange is likely only because of that huge spring in there. Thanks Cobra. I will contact them. I would say the mag was infact cold, and I remember reading somewhere that someone mentioned that. To me this is kind of a big issue. As I dont want this to happen to me or anyone else again. Looks like ill be sticking to 2.75" shells in this and 3" and up in the 590 And yea, the spring is almost ridiculous lol its big. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 There has been discussion of why buy a factory Russian 8rd Mag. Has anyone tried these loads in the factory 8rd mag? Curious as to results, I bet they would differ and that might answer the question on folks mind. On the other hand, as cool hand Luke says, "Every man has to know his limitations.". If you know the limitations of your platform you will be better off. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) As mentioned above this is not just an AGP issue. Someone reported the same thing while shooting 3" mags in a Surefire 12 rounder. I think we need to be careful when using 3" mags in these plastic magazines especially in the cold. A full magazine with 10 or 12 3" magnum shells is very heavy plus add to the mix the spring tension there is a lot of stored up potential energy in one of these bad boys. Maybe your mag had a small crack or defect and in combination with the cold making the plastic brittle and the rest of the factors caused the mag to fail. I think we should take note and if planning to shoot 3" shells especially in the cold load your magazines minus 3 or 4 shells, that should remove sufficient stress I would think. Personally I will never load more that 8 rounds in a single stack shotgun magazine no matter what the size. They are too expensive to risk breaking like this. Kind of makes me appreciate my steel M14 mags a lot more. The guys from AGP are great email these 2 guys and I'm sure they will take care of you: Jon@AGPTurbo.com, Kevin@AGPTurbo.com Edited February 6, 2009 by lipadj46 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Norty 13 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I have ran a bunch through the factory 5rd mags. No problem with the mags but my shoulder....not so good!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lctrav 0 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Dirty Harry in Magnum Force. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Project_Pat 0 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Maybe a dumb question ...but would a SAIGA-12 with a extended mag well eliminate this problem with the AGP mags and Magnum loads? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Maybe a dumb question ...but would a SAIGA-12 with a extended mag well eliminate this problem with the AGP mags and Magnum loads? I doubt it. I have one of the Russian magwells on one of mine and although it does offer some extra support, the problem lies in the lockup points where the shockwave enters the mag body. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gkcf 8 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Would an aluminum mag solve that problem? I've never seen anyone offer aluminum mags, I figured it was just because of a cost issue with machining such an intricate design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Prometheus 7 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I don't know how cold it was where you were, but the idea that "it's too cold" is IMO no excuse for todays modern polymers. If quality polymer is being used, todays temperatures (unless you were in Nome Alaska) should be no problem. I've seen Pmags shot and dropped loaded on to the concrete in 20 degree weather. I heard of Pmags being used at 0 and well below. I ordered 3 today from here at Saiga-12. I live in NW Indiana where I go shooting in the winter any time the thermometer breaks 32 degrees. I'd hate to think I just bought 3 paperweights. It's nice to know AGP stands behind their products but if it's a temperature thing, they are going to be shipping me a lot of replacements until they get this straitened out, lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) I don't know how cold it was where you were, but the idea that "it's too cold" is IMO no excuse for todays modern polymers. If quality polymer is being used, todays temperatures (unless you were in Nome Alaska) should be no problem. I've seen Pmags shot and dropped loaded on to the concrete in 20 degree weather. I heard of Pmags being used at 0 and well below. I ordered 3 today from here at Saiga-12. I live in NW Indiana where I go shooting in the winter any time the thermometer breaks 32 degrees. I'd hate to think I just bought 3 paperweights. It's nice to know AGP stands behind their products but if it's a temperature thing, they are going to be shipping me a lot of replacements until they get this straitened out, lol. I think there is only so much stress that 3mm (or whatever thickness they are) plastic can take and obviously the 3" mags are pushing this plastic magazine technology to the limit. Steel mags would be better but would be much more expensive to tool up for production for these small companies, plastic is easier and cheaper. I don't think you can compare the stresses other plastic rifle magazines undergo compared to a fully loaded 10 or 12 round shotgun magazine with the recoil of a 3" mag shotgun load. While low temps don't have much much affect on modern polymers it does have some affect and I'm sure it is all additive. With my mags I just know if I am planning on shooting 3" heavy loads I won't fill the magazine to it's full capacity. Edited February 6, 2009 by lipadj46 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Is this why the MD arms drums are limited to 2 3/4 inch loads? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 The attachment points should be reinforced with metal inserts or be made of metal. It is obvious that it is a problem arising from the combination of weight and inertia creating too much stress on the attachment points. cold weather being an aggravating factor. We need a third generation ASAP... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 There has been discussion of why buy a factory Russian 8rd Mag. Has anyone tried these loads in the factory 8rd mag? Curious as to results, I bet they would differ and that might answer the question on folks mind. On the other hand, as cool hand Luke says, "Every man has to know his limitations.". If you know the limitations of your platform you will be better off. 1911 Yes, I was shooting 3" high Brass Remington #1 shot most the day 75% through my izzy 8.. no problem... same with my 1st gen AGP's Is this why the MD arms drums are limited to 2 3/4 inch loads? that is just the way God wanted them to be.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hey Juggernaut! Was that other one that you're referring to the one that broke at the pit? The front mag catch came right off. I thought the mag hadn't been fully locked in when I saw that. Corbin P.S. I think I might be by the pit Friday. We'll see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 correct... just like the one on pictured on top.... I thought we got it to "Click"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 It DID click, I think. It's just that when I saw it come out after the first shot, I immediately thought "It must not have been 'clicked in' all the way". correct... just like the one on pictured on top....I thought we got it to "Click"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I had the same failure on one of my AGP mags. I was NOT firing 3 inch shells. I also traded one of my unfired AGP mags to a fellow member of this forum and he said it broke just like this too. I contacted AGP and they said the would warranty the mag. I'm waiting to send it back until I have tested all of the AGP mags I have. The date codes on both were '11'. I wonder if there was a bad batch? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1TIME 1 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Same thing happened to a friends gen 2 mag. Maybe the cold 2 degrees fahrenheit , 3 inch rem buck. Have not had any issues with any of my 4 gen 1 AGP mags, all work in much colder weather then that. I shoot only 2 3/4 through them if I need 3's I shoot my 870. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I had the same failure on one of my AGP mags. I was NOT firing 3 inch shells. I also traded one of my unfired AGP mags to a fellow member of this forum and he said it broke just like this too. I contacted AGP and they said the would warranty the mag. I'm waiting to send it back until I have tested all of the AGP mags I have. The date codes on both were '11'. I wonder if there was a bad batch? Where did you find the date codes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Small circullar imprint. Year in the center with an arrow pointing to the month. I had the same failure on one of my AGP mags. I was NOT firing 3 inch shells. I also traded one of my unfired AGP mags to a fellow member of this forum and he said it broke just like this too. I contacted AGP and they said the would warranty the mag. I'm waiting to send it back until I have tested all of the AGP mags I have. The date codes on both were '11'. I wonder if there was a bad batch? Where did you find the date codes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 There is a major significant amout of recoil difference between 3" Buckshot and every other 3" shell. I have had a few dozen customers and myself break these mags with the 3" 00 Buck. You can shoot the hottest 3" Turkey Loads, Duck Loads and every high velocity other 3" load you can name with no problem. The 3" Buck shot kills mags and my shoulder. Mine broke in the middle of summer on the 2nd shot around 95 deg. Greg I fired 3" 1 1/4 oz buck out of a single AGP ALL DAY at the last Florida "shoot out" last year. It is a gen one mag body, my s12 is a 2001 make, and has the trunion flaw. I prefer "cannon" rounds, myself. Why else have a 12 gauge? I will also add, that 1 1/4 oz turkey loads were used in a gen 1 mag out of the beast, in the "devil dog video" and also, as was not recorded, my firing of a full mag of the same turkey 3" loads, as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Doubt anyone is going to test out the factory 8's, unless they are using them for HD/SD and want to confirm thier gear. They are metal reinforced, so they stand a better chance, and they were developed in a nation well known for it's cold. But, pricing is out there, and I doubt anyone is standing behind them with any warranty work. I get the manliness of the 3 in loads, so it sucks these don't work. However, if my 12 is pressed into hd I'd use lighter buck loads, not heavier. Overpenetration is more of a problem, and shot to shot recovery time is too valuable to give away if you really aren't getting much for it. What I mean is ... I'd rather put shingles down with a 16 oz hammer. Sure, a 20oz is stronger, but it's not needed and slows the job down. And you might put the hammer thru the roof if you miss BTW, the drum was a 2 3/4 shell design because that's where the majority of interest was. Sucks about the mags not standing up, but the longer mags with stronger force is just hammering that contact point. Edited February 7, 2009 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Well on the bright side AGP and Surefire (Pro Mag too) are all good companies that will stand behind their products. I will have no problems shooting 3" turkey and buckshot shells out of my AGP's. I will just make sure to only load 8 rounds in a magazine and I am sure that will probably be enough to mitigate the risk of failure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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