Why doesnt a Saiga 12 like Wally world winchester?

[pipesfa65 1]

Hello all.. This is my first post but I have been lurking here for a few months. I have been wondering if anybody knew why Saiga 12's in general don't like the wally world winchester cheap shells? I have a 2008 pre vodka special four hole gun that shoots everything except this load. I even removed the gas block to open her up a little since the side holes were covered slightly. This gun eats low brass federal, remington, winchester AA, etc. Also, it will shoot any of these on setting "1" Ive shot over 500 rounds of high brass stuff thru it as well. Does WW winchester suck that bad or is it the gun design itself? Is there something about this shell that the gun doesnt like? What say you experts?

[BobAsh 582]

Can't say for sure; inconsistant loading of powder or shot, poorly shaped hull, could be lots of things.

 

Of course it will shoot just fine in certain guns, but it's a proverbial poor performer even in pump guns. Any gas-operated auto is going to be picky about ammo...the design criteria for the gun is a nightmare. Just imagine the wide variety of shotshell loads compared to rifle ammo.

[BEACH HUNTER 0]

Hello all.. This is my first post but I have been lurking here for a few months. I have been wondering if anybody knew why Saiga 12's in general don't like the wally world winchester cheap shells? I have a 2008 pre vodka special four hole gun that shoots everything except this load. I even removed the gas block to open her up a little since the side holes were covered slightly. This gun eats low brass federal, remington, winchester AA, etc. Also, it will shoot any of these on setting "1" Ive shot over 500 rounds of high brass stuff thru it as well. Does WW winchester suck that bad or is it the gun design itself? Is there something about this shell that the gun doesnt like? What say you experts?

I have had more issues with Winchester ammo in all types of guns!! I have had lots of issues with the rim size...too big at times.. lots of jams getting stuck in mags....I have had thses issues in my ..Marlin "GOOSE GUN" Bolt with detach. box mags + 120 PUMP...My two... Mossie 500's ...my WIN "Defender" pump.... my 1100 ect.But most of the issues were with steel shot duck loads. stick with the FED'S OR REM'S in thew value packs!!

[kingjoey 5]

Our gas tappet will boost cycling enough that most Saigas will reliably cycle Win AA. Have you cleaned your tappet lately? If that's fouled up you're going to have trouble cycling any light ammo.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Our gas tappet will boost cycling enough that most Saigas will reliably cycle Win AA. Have you cleaned your tappet lately? If that's fouled up you're going to have trouble cycling any light ammo.

I clean my weapons every outing, regardless if they "Need" it or not, and mine still hates win bulk packs...

 

Fed and win low brass are fine though as seems to be the standard.

[pipesfa65 1]

I clean the gas system after every outing where my saiga 12 gets a "workout" and it still wont cycle ww winchester. It shoots everything else fine. FWIW I have trouble with the ww winchester cycling in my Benelli SBE2 as well. I am really not concerned because Federal is cheaper and I like it better anyways but I was just curious why the winchester sucks so bad. The saiga 12 is one of the most badass weapons I own and I want it to be as reliable as possible.

[kingjoey 5]

Don't feel bad, my pumps don't even like to cycle Winchester We use Remington HGL's for demo shooting, they're a bit more expensive but they run clean and cycle well.

 

I clean my weapons every outing, regardless if they "Need" it or not,

 

Same here, I get really OCD about that.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Just take a Winchester Universal shell and LOOK at it. The front end has a bulbous head on it. The leading edge is substantially LARGER then the body of the shell casing. If you look at the chamber entrance of your S-12, you'll see a sharp rim all the way around it. That leading edge flange on the shell, gets caught on that rim and it won't chamber. Of course they are fairly low powered as well, so ejection can be a problem as well.

 

Tony

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Additionally, the plastic they are made of is soft, and scars, catches on shit easily, they are even known to open up inside the mag on hot days and spill their load in there.

Also....When an unmodified S-12 bolt comes back after the shot, the sharp edges on the bolt lug crease the soft wall of the top shell in the mag, causing drag on the cycling, and deforming the shell in the process.

[GimmeLiberty 0]

Our gas tappet will boost cycling enough that most Saigas will reliably cycle Win AA. Have you cleaned your tappet lately? If that's fouled up you're going to have trouble cycling any light ammo.

 

I am intrigued. How is your piston different than the stock gas piston ? I have a 3 hole vodka special that I have gotten to work fairly well after opening the gas ports with the 5 rd mags, but I can't get it to cycle more than 50% when I slap on the Surefire mag. If your piston will help quite a bit, I would love to try it rather than pulling the gas tube off again to do more filing.

[TheGlobule 1]

Our gas tappet will boost cycling enough that most Saigas will reliably cycle Win AA. Have you cleaned your tappet lately? If that's fouled up you're going to have trouble cycling any light ammo.

 

I am intrigued. How is your piston different than the stock gas piston ? I have a 3 hole vodka special that I have gotten to work fairly well after opening the gas ports with the 5 rd mags, but I can't get it to cycle more than 50% when I slap on the Surefire mag. If your piston will help quite a bit, I would love to try it rather than pulling the gas tube off again to do more filing.

 

 

Go on the KA web site and look at the pics of it.

You will notice that the tappet is not flat like the factory one.

[vbrtrmn 167]

Remember Wallyworld buys the cheapest crap out there to "pass the savings" on to the poor suckers who shop there. So, when you go to your local gun store and buy what appears to be the same Winchester ammo that you buy at Wallyworld, it isn't. Don't forget, about 95% of the products there are made in China, China is a communist country, by buying crap at Wallyworld you are indirectly supporting communism. I try to buy all my ammo either from Virginia dealers or from small independent internet shops.

[kingjoey 5]

Just take a Winchester Universal shell and LOOK at it. The front end has a bulbous head on it. The leading edge is substantially LARGER then the body of the shell casing. If you look at the chamber entrance of your S-12, you'll see a sharp rim all the way around it. That leading edge flange on the shell, gets caught on that rim and it won't chamber. Of course they are fairly low powered as well, so ejection can be a problem as well.

 

Tony

 

So you're saying that something round, red, apx 2.5" long, with a bulbous head isn't welcomed into most chambers? If you were to cut the excess flange off do you think it would be more readily accepted? Maybe Saigas just don't like turtlenecks

[Twinsen 86]

Wot wot wah! If you cut it off though, the ... nevermind you know this.

 

I know less than five people that claim to own a gun that can reliably cycle Winchester bulk pack. Liars. I've seen them DNF in competition with that shit. It sells because of the name. It is the only hull that I won't bother taking home with me.

[vbrtrmn 167]

++ to Twinsen!

 

Frankly, I won't even buy Winchester ammo anymore, I bought a brick of .22 awhile back, about 1-in-10 rounds wouldn't burn, even tried to strike them again.

[kingjoey 5]

Our gas tappet will boost cycling enough that most Saigas will reliably cycle Win AA. Have you cleaned your tappet lately? If that's fouled up you're going to have trouble cycling any light ammo.

 

I am intrigued. How is your piston different than the stock gas piston ? I have a 3 hole vodka special that I have gotten to work fairly well after opening the gas ports with the 5 rd mags, but I can't get it to cycle more than 50% when I slap on the Surefire mag. If your piston will help quite a bit, I would love to try it rather than pulling the gas tube off again to do more filing.

 

The piston is designed to run cleaner. With nothing directly in front of the gasport you get less fouling and the fouling that you do get isn't along the outer edge of the piston where it is going to gum up the system. The forward edge is cut to a bevel to push debris away from the walls and towards the middle. The recess increases the initial volume of the cylinder which increases the cycling strength by allowing a slightly larger volume of gas to get into the cylinder. As the tappet moves back and the cylinder volume increases, the pressure isn't going to drop as much. Simple physics applied to existing technology.

[TheGlobule 1]

Wot wot wah! If you cut it off though, the ... nevermind you know this.

 

I know less than five people that claim to own a gun that can reliably cycle Winchester bulk pack. Liars. I've seen them DNF in competition with that shit. It sells because of the name. It is the only hull that I won't bother taking home with me.

 

My four gas ports Saiga 12 with polished bolt and carrier with or without a BlackJack buffer installed cycles the Winchester Wall-Mart value pack 7 1/2 bird shot from 5 rounds factory, 10 rounds AGP and 13 rounds Surefire mags when the gas tappet is clean (add me to your list).

 

I am going to the range this afternoon with a new (unmodified Saiga 12 with three gas ports) to check it out before conversion and will let you know.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Wot wot wah! If you cut it off though, the ... nevermind you know this.

 

I know less than five people that claim to own a gun that can reliably cycle Winchester bulk pack. Liars. I've seen them DNF in competition with that shit. It sells because of the name. It is the only hull that I won't bother taking home with me.

 

My four gas ports Saiga 12 with polished bolt and carrier with or without a BlackJack buffer installed cycles the Winchester Wall-Mart value pack 7 1/2 bird shot from 5 rounds factory, 10 rounds AGP and 13 rounds Surefire mags when the gas tappet is clean (add me to your list).

 

I am going to the range this afternoon with a new (unmodified Saiga 12 with three gas ports) to check it out before conversion and will let you know.

 

+1

There are things that can be done to make them cycle the cheap winchester ammo just fine....

[impcmonk 1]

I'm just getting rid of the last of my Wally World Winchester crap. I was in there the other day and saw a Federal pack for the same price. Does anyone know if there is a problem with the Federal also?

[TheGlobule 1]

Okay.... I went to the range to try the new gun and took my other Saiga 12 (the 4 holes converted and polished one) with one 10 rds AGP and one 13 rds Surefire mag as well.

First off, the factory 5 rounds mag would not lock in the new, of the box, gun (the mag release would not engage at all).

I removed the tread protector and put on the SGM forearm (922r) and tried the high cap. mags. both locked in the gun so I was back in business...

I first tried the Surefire topped with Winchester "Universal" 7 1/2 bird shot Wall-Mart value pack.

Shot five rounds and FTE at every round.

I was kind of expecting that so I swapped the bolt/bolt carrier with the "polished" ones and tried again.

Full mag dump, no FTE, no FTF...

Loaded the mag with Federal 7 1/2 bird shot Wall-Mart value pack.

Full mag dump, no FTE, no FTF...

Tried again the Federal with original un-polished bolt/bolt carrier.

Full mag dump, no FTE, no FTF...

Ok, I was on the roll there..

Tried the Winchester again with polished bolt/bolt carrier.

Bang, bang, FTF, bang, FTE, bang, bang, FTF, bang, FTF... Well, you get the picture...

I figured the gas tappet wad getting dirty by now and since I did not have the hammer polished...

 

This should tell you two things:

1. Polishing the bolt and bolt carrier and hammer at the right place is not really and option, it will improve how your gun will cycle low power/cheap/crap ammo

2. Wall-Mart Federal value pack is much better than Winchester value pack and is the same price (about $22.00)

 

Back, to the original mag fitting problem.

The mag locking tab looked kind of an odd angle and after a closer look I realized the tab pin is not centered as it should be and this is what is preventing the original mag to lock in the gun.

I guess I have to send it in for repair...

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Federal is still pretty light powered like the WW Universal, but the leading edge of the shell isn't flanged outward like the WW, so it feeds fine.

 

Tony

[Twinsen 86]

I've seen pump guns FTF bulk pack Winchester. I don't know anybody with an 1100 or 1187 that can use it either. The auto benellis, whatever models the guys have (not the M4) can't use it either.

 

I'm sure you can mod any gun to feed the stuff. Good luck finding a gun that doesn't need work to use it though. I can dump the ugliest reloads I've ever made out of my Saiga even in the MD-20, no problems. Win Bulk Pack is jammo even in the stock 5 rounder.

 

Oh and it sucks for reloading, the hull is like a ziploc bag.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Twinsen

[Prometheus 7]

Remember Wallyworld buys the cheapest crap out there to "pass the savings" on to the poor suckers who shop there. So, when you go to your local gun store and buy what appears to be the same Winchester ammo that you buy at Wallyworld, it isn't. Don't forget, about 95% of the products there are made in China, China is a communist country, by buying crap at Wallyworld you are indirectly supporting communism. I try to buy all my ammo either from Virginia dealers or from small independent internet shops.

 

This is the same nonsense that gun shops parrot as to why their ruger 10/22 for $300 is "better" than the identical model at walmart for $180.

 

Do You really think that winchester or ruger is making subpar ammo and firearms specifically to sell to walmart? If they are where is your proof?

 

Honestly dirt devil making a special item to sell on black friday is a known thing, they don't include certain accessories or whatever. HOWEVER they are different item numbers and model numbers than regular products. They don't sell the same item with the same name with a lower quality or number of parts.

 

This kind of drivel is parroted by all the over priced gun shops. Don't fall for it.

 

As to the winchester bulk pack stuff being crap. It's just winchester. Winchester is a bottom of the barrel name for ammunition. It's like buying hydrox cookies and wondering why they aren't as good as Oreo's. Why? There is a reason why it's cheaper, lol.

 

I try not to buy anything winchester and I only buy it on clearance and then I shoot it up to get rid of it ASAP.

[Gibbles 23]

The stuff runs great in my 870, and mostly runs in my S12, I don't have cycle issues to bad, but the rim on the hulls do get stuck on my ejector sometimes, and i do have a FTF sometimes, it seems that the plastic is just soft and it will deform easy.

 

I switched to the federal stuff for cheap blasting, it seems to run better.

[Twinsen 86]

Remember Wallyworld buys the cheapest crap out there to "pass the savings" on to the poor suckers who shop there. So, when you go to your local gun store and buy what appears to be the same Winchester ammo that you buy at Wallyworld, it isn't. Don't forget, about 95% of the products there are made in China, China is a communist country, by buying crap at Wallyworld you are indirectly supporting communism. I try to buy all my ammo either from Virginia dealers or from small independent internet shops.

 

This is the same nonsense that gun shops parrot as to why their ruger 10/22 for $300 is "better" than the identical model at walmart for $180.

 

Do You really think that winchester or ruger is making subpar ammo and firearms specifically to sell to walmart? If they are where is your proof?

 

Honestly dirt devil making a special item to sell on black friday is a known thing, they don't include certain accessories or whatever. HOWEVER they are different item numbers and model numbers than regular products. They don't sell the same item with the same name with a lower quality or number of parts.

 

This kind of drivel is parroted by all the over priced gun shops. Don't fall for it.

 

As to the winchester bulk pack stuff being crap. It's just winchester. Winchester is a bottom of the barrel name for ammunition. It's like buying hydrox cookies and wondering why they aren't as good as Oreo's. Why? There is a reason why it's cheaper, lol.

 

I try not to buy anything winchester and I only buy it on clearance and then I shoot it up to get rid of it ASAP.

 

All big box stores carry nearly identical products with lower cost components. From exercise machines with the same plastics but weaker internals, to pellet guns with cheaper wood and steel, to safes made with looser tolerances and thinner steel, to electronics with older or lower quality tech in them. They approach a manufacturer and ask them to produce a similar product than normal, at a lower price, no matter what the reduction in quality. It's not BS.

 

Never buy anything of high value at a bigbox store unless you are ok with lower quality.

 

And as for Winchester ammo being the bottom of the barrel, I consider Winchester AA to be the best hulls out there. Their bulkpack crap is them catering to Walmart. The bulk hulls are half as thick, and it makes an ugly fold at the front instead of a nice smooth roll. Try reloading one of them, they fold, and often when you try to complete the crimp, they bulge out in the middle. I've yet to find a suitable load for them. I picked up 50 or so once, and not one load that I've tried have they been acceptable with.

 

But again, yes, I figure you can mod your gun to be 100% with them. It's just not worth it because shells that work and are reloadable cost the same.

[Fallschirmjager 0]

This past Monday I went to the range and ran Winchester Universal with no problem. I've used AGP mags and the factory 5 rnd mag and no feed problems. Before I went I had the gun cleaned. I am recording how many rounds it'll cycle through it over time to see just how it feeds as carbon collects. The gas system has the 3 port design and factory 'hockey puck'. From the first day it ran Universal with no issues. Naturally it ran the 2 3/4 inch 00 buck and the 3" bird shot. It can be a lot of little things. If your gun is brand new, and never fired you may need to give it some break in time and then try again. I don't think my gun even has had 200 rnds through it, and I consider it is still in 'break in mode'. It had been test fired by the fellow that did the conversion. And he didn't do much firing it by judging from the finish wear on the action. Before you do any of the function polishing of bolt, etc. give it break in time and use ammo that is known to function and then go back and run the ammo you may have had problems with. Over the summer I'm curious how much ammo my gun will cycle without cleaning until I get fouling to the point of feed or eject problems. One of the aspects of the S12 that drew me to it was the ability to mix various shells in the mag and have the gun digest them. I haven't shot slugs yet, but that will come quite soon. Have fun.

[Grendel 0]

The Winchester "value pack" ammo from Walmart in the 100 round boxes is the only thing so far that my S-12 won't shoot reliably. It loves Federal or Remington cheap stuff, especially Federal, but the Winchester just doesn't seem to have quite enough "oomph" to cycle the bolt reliably. About half the time I ended up with the 2nd round out of a mag fed halfway out of the mag and jammed against the top feedramp in the barrel.

[kmoore 3]

Federal runs better than the other bulk pack. I prefer it to others. I think the slight rib in the case helps in extraction, but couldn't prove that.

 

I stopped buying winchester when the hulls opened in moderate heat. They were in mags and in the box! ... was mid nineties temperature wise. I hadn't noticed the shape as tony mentioned, but had always thought the hull wasn't slick, and an aluminum base didn't help. But I think a major problem could be power. I'd love to see chrono results on it, compared to the others. But, I didn't notice any higher failure rate with it as long as the crimp holds

 

But winchester AA is as good as any .. it runs ~ $2 more a box. The super handicap (set up to run from the back line of a trap field) is pretty hot stuff too!

 

As far as cheap ammo being subpar ...

Lead is the domininant cost in shotshells, and the bismuth they add to harden it makes it cost even more. When these bulk packs came out (~14 for 100) folks studied the contents and the payload was on a par with the premium stuff. Couldn't tell difference in shot hardness or shot size consistency.

Don't know if it's still the case. That stuff mattered more to me years ago when I was mostly shooting skeet and sporting clays. Maybe keeping stock of premium lead shot separate from cheap cost more that it saved? There were plenty of hardcore skeet/trap shooters that would run the bulk stuff because reloading just didn't save enough, and you can bet they wouldn't do that if it didn't throw good patterns.

[twinhairdryers 2]

I bought a few bricks of the Wolf cheapo blue hull 7s and 8s crap ammo for about 3.50 a box. That stuff feeds like butter, never a hitch. The Winchester wally world bulk is the ONLY one that hitches up sometimes in my s-12 and costs more. if you can find other cheap dove load crap ammo that feeds, buy it in bulk on your pre Obammo discount before that stuff rises.

 

some folks bitch about buying ammo online cuz they don't like shipping fees. it costs me money to drive to walmart, and i get better ammo for cheaper online. try it.