I'm cussing mad right now

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I'm cussing mad right now, damned threads in my gas block are fucked up.

My OEM/Gunfixr plugs have always screwed in easily by hand... Not anymore.

 

I'm not sure what the fuck happened, but it appears the threads were damaged, either when I was trying to knock the KA puck out for cleaning or while cleaning the chamber out with a drill powered brass brush.

I can see that they are roughed up particularly around the very top and elsewhere, the OEM/Gunfixr plugs will now only go in a turn or two before binding fast.

 

And, I can't get the damned pucks, neither the OEM/Chaos/KA to go into the chamber, they act like they're hanging up on the threads.

Not that they haven't always taken a bit of manipulation to insert, but now... Forget about it.

 

FUCK! & Double Fuck!

Please, let this be fixable!

............................

 

Does anyone have a tap for loan/rent that I can try chasing the threads with?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Shit, sorry to hear about this, Chile.

 

I won't say it... ok I can't help myself.. that's what you get for using a high torque power-tool for cleaning purposes. Personally, I can't see how that'd ever be necessary.

 

I hope there's a reasonable fix that another member can suggest.. a way to chase the threads and realign them to where they're supposed to be.

 

Good luck, man.

[cscharlie 107]

If I couldn't find a tap to chase the threads with, and was able to get the the factory plug to start into the threads, I might try using a little more force and see if that would straighten the threads. I'd do it a little at a time. Stopping and backing up before going forward just like tapping a hole.

 

Edited to: change word tappet to plug.

Edited June 1, 2009 by cscharlie

[BronCobraJet 80]

I really don't see how a soft bristle brush could fuck up the steel? My gas plug (oem ) was a LOT harder to remove and install after the very first time of shooting it. Before I shot it I sprayed the puck and tube with Rem-Oil with teflon, and the crud didn't even stick to the plug after 190 rds. It was very easy to clean. Someone here says they use a very light coat of copper anti-sieze on the threads when they reassemble, so I bought some of that, but haven't tried it out yet. Hopefully someone will have an answer for you.

[Azrial 1,091]

I assume that you are sure that the threads are truely damaged and not just carbon fowled despite your intensive cleaning?

[6500rpm 670]

IF the threads are truely damaged, the first thing I'd do would be to try to get the proper tap and chase them (possibly rent the tap out after to re-coupe some of your cost).

OR, if you have your original plug and you can get the threads to start there's an old mechanics trick to make a thread chaser. Mechanic's typically use a bolt, you'll use your old plug. Grind or cut a slot across the threads on the plug and clean the edges with a fine file-it will leave a ^^^^^^ profile to chase the bad threads. If I get a chance I'll do a bolt and post a picture. If you have no clue as to what I'm talking about, maybe talk to a friend before attempting. Use cutting oil and go slow. Just a last chance option.

[elwoodm 0]

try finding some metric thread files. these are mainly used for outside threads but on large diameter inside threads they can work

[SaigaNoobie 66]

We couldn't get my gunfixr plug in my second shotgun by hand... so i used a tool to just force it in (turned it by the cross-slots), now it's easily moved by hand... you run the risk of damaging threads on the plug/gun but it MAY work, it did for me.

 

~SN

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I won't say it... ok I can't help myself.. that's what you get for using a high torque power-tool for cleaning purposes. Personally, I can't see how that'd ever be necessary.

I can't see how brass bristles could damage steel threads. As far as power tools i do it myself, its not nessesary, just as with any application a means of making a simple task easier.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I won't say it... ok I can't help myself.. that's what you get for using a high torque power-tool for cleaning purposes. Personally, I can't see how that'd ever be necessary.

I can't see how brass bristles could damage steel threads. As far as power tools i do it myself, its not nessesary, just as with any application a means of making a simple task easier.

 

I don't see how the brush could have damaged the threads either.. but according to his original post on this thread, Chile thinks the damage must have happened either when he was knocking his KA tappet out or while using a drill-powered brush. If we assume that those are the only possible causes, I'd think the drill would be the more likely culprit.

 

But, if his threads are indeed damaged, (and not just fouled with carbon), it was most likely caused by something other than a brass brush, drill-mounted or not. *shrug*

[james lambert 3,059]

As far as I can tell..no standard metric tap exists for that pitch and diameter

 

It is 26TPI

You could could cut the teeth of a standard tap leaving only two...and use it to clean up the threads by hand

Jim

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

When I mention using the drill, it is not because I think the standard brass brush did the damage.

It is because I'm thinking I may have inadvertently let the uncoated steel rod come into contact with the threads as I vigorously reamed the heavily fouled gas system out end to end.

The most visible damage was right at the top of the block.

 

The KA puck was mentioned because it took a unusual amount of force to knock it out, I had to knock it back and forth to loosen it up and finally out.

The sharp leading edges were noticeably chewed up a bit, just as were some threads.

So, I'm thinking perhaps the puck edges may have bit into the threads.

..........................................

 

That said...

 

I finally settled down, and proceeded to very carefully/thoroughly examine the damage and a plan formed.

I cleaned out anything that even remotely resembled carbon from the block/plug threads and then even more carefully chased the threads with various dental picks.

 

That finally allowed the OEM gas puck to fit into the block... The Chaos/KA still will not fit into the block.

They both bind 3/4 of the way in, and I'm not about to try tapping them in, like I've done before.

Neither of these aftermarket conversion (922r) parts have fit like the OEM, neither have inserted as easily, nor had the freeplay in the block as the OEM.

I'm curious about that?

 

Then I lubed the block/plug and started very slowly working the Gunfixr plug into the block using a hand tool to turn it back and forth, a little further each time, completely removing and inspecting the threads of both.

 

I finally got it 3/5 of the way in when it cleared and went in by hand the rest of the way.

I backed it out and it again binded at 3/5, and was very tight all the way back out.

It now reliably threads in/out, but requires the use of a tool... It no longer goes in very easily by hand like before... But it goes in, and I see no more damage.

...............................

 

Chile breathes a big sigh of relief.

...............................

 

I'd still like to know if anyone has the correct tap to chase the threads with? Loan/rent, anybody?

Edited May 31, 2009 by ChileRelleno

[TheDarkHorse 216]

Off topic here.....glad you got it operable again.....

 

but assuming that is you, Chile, in your avatar photo....

 

Has anyone ever told you that you kinda look like Alex Jones?

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Off topic here.....glad you got it operable again.....

 

but assuming that is you, Chile, in your avatar photo....

 

Has anyone ever told you that you kinda look like Alex Jones?

Thnx

 

Yes, it is.

 

Nope, never, and no way do I look like Alex Jones.

How could you reach that conclusion with 1/3+ of my face obscured?

Besides, Alex is a pussy, I'm conservative evil incarnate.

[TheDarkHorse 216]

Off topic here.....glad you got it operable again.....

 

but assuming that is you, Chile, in your avatar photo....

 

Has anyone ever told you that you kinda look like Alex Jones?

Thnx

 

Yes, it is.

 

Nope, never, and no way do I look like Alex Jones.

How could you reach that conclusion with 1/3+ of my face obscured?

Besides, Alex is a pussy, I'm conservative evil incarnate.

 

I guess the obscured portion must have made all the difference.

 

I stand corrected sir. You do not look like the pussy Alex Jones.

 

You do however, look like one crazy mutherfucker.

 

Back on topic. Someone. Please.

[govlingle 0]

When I mention using the drill, it is not because I think the standard brass brush did the damage.

It is because I'm thinking I may have inadvertently let the uncoated steel rod come into contact with the threads as I vigorously reamed the heavily fouled gas system out end to end.

The most visible damage was right at the top of the block.

 

The KA puck was mentioned because it took a unusual amount of force to knock it out, I had to knock it back and forth to loosen it up and finally out.

The sharp leading edges were noticeably chewed up a bit, just as were some threads.

So, I'm thinking perhaps the puck edges may have bit into the threads.

..........................................

 

That said...

 

I finally settled down, and proceeded to very carefully/thoroughly examine the damage and a plan formed.

I cleaned out anything that even remotely resembled carbon from the block/plug threads and then even more carefully chased the threads with various dental picks.

 

That finally allowed the OEM gas puck to fit into the block... The Chaos/KA still will not fit into the block.

They both bind 3/4 of the way in, and I'm not about to try tapping them in, like I've done before.

Neither of these aftermarket conversion (922r) parts have fit like the OEM, neither have inserted as easily, nor had the freeplay in the block as the OEM.

I'm curious about that?

 

Then I lubed the block/plug and started very slowly working the Gunfixr plug into the block using a hand tool to turn it back and forth, a little further each time, completely removing and inspecting the threads of both.

 

I finally got it 3/5 of the way in when it cleared and went in by hand the rest of the way.

I backed it out and it again binded at 3/5, and was very tight all the way back out.

It now reliably threads in/out, but requires the use of a tool... It no longer goes in very easily by hand like before... But it goes in, and I see no more damage.

...............................

 

Chile breathes a big sigh of relief.

...............................

 

I'd still like to know if anyone has the correct tap to chase the threads with? Loan/rent, anybody?

 

 

Very glad to hear you got the thing threading again.

Your postings have been helpfull to me. In fact, I spent the day at the range today screwing with my new Kreb sight that I bought in large part because of your favorable postings.

Another side, your full faced photo looks like the non-speaking guy in Texas Chainsaw Massacre II, who is Surely a conservative.

 

ANYWAY, I can attest that using high temperature anti-seize lubricant at the gas plug threads has worked for me.

I had a lesser gas-plug-thread-hell than you did. Mine was with a new gun and OEM plug.

I've seen postings saying not to use lube there, but I use very little. Just a dab inside the bristles on an old toothbrush which I keep in a plastic bag in my cleaning kit. I brush the plug threads and also the barrel threads just enough to put on a very thin film.

Big gobs would of course be bad, and I put it only on the threads and wipe the insidious crap off of everything else.

Because of crazy shit I've done at work, I swear by Permatex advanced formula anti-seize lube, wich has metal in it including copper and it says it's good to 1600F.

From shit at work I've done, I can tell you it works great a 800F, which is frick'n really hot.

Here's a pic I took of my plug after I got it free.

I was Cursing mad about it.

Still am.

Fuck'n gas Fucking threads.

Look how the bottom of the plug is marked up by the threads it had to rub against.

The more I screw with it, the looser it seems to get.

 

After your experience I'll keep using the anti-seize and I'll keep being carefull with these threads.

[Spartacus 1,619]

FUCK! & Double Fuck!

Please, let this be fixable!

............................

 

 

Good job that you got it to be workable.

This seems like one of those problems that I will be likely to see too.

 

I think the very worst thing that could happen is that you'd have to replace the gas block.

Not good, but it's not like the whole gun is fubared or anything.

[Stansplace 414]

Being a machinist, I will let you in on a little secret about quickly repairing slightly damaged threads. This will work great for you now that you can get the thing all the way back in with a tool. This trick will allow you to once again turn it by hand. Start the plug in the threads or even back it up to where it starts to bind if it is already installed. And I know this is going to freak someone here out. Take an aluminum bar or hammer or even a regular hammer and and a wood block and give the plug a wack. You can do this straight down or side to side or both. Don't beat the hell out of it, just a solid wack. This will reform the bad places in the threads if the damage is slight, which is what you described to here. This also works great on nuts and bolts, if you have a nut that won't go on a bolt all the way, start it as far as you can by hand then wack it on the workbench or concrete floor and it will go on a little further by hand, do it again, etc..... you get the point. I promise you this technique works.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Being a machinist, I will let you in on a little secret about quickly repairing slightly damaged threads. This will work great for you now that you can get the thing all the way back in with a tool. This trick will allow you to once again turn it by hand. Start the plug in the threads or even back it up to where it starts to bind if it is already installed. And I know this is going to freak someone here out. Take an aluminum bar or hammer or even a regular hammer and and a wood block and give the plug a wack. You can do this straight down or side to side or both. Don't beat the hell out of it, just a solid wack. This will reform the bad places in the threads if the damage is slight, which is what you described to here. This also works great on nuts and bolts, if you have a nut that won't go on a bolt all the way, start it as far as you can by hand then wack it on the workbench or concrete floor and it will go on a little further by hand, do it again, etc..... you get the point. I promise you this technique works.

Hmmmmmm... Three tricks that I've heard of in the past, once again given to me here.

 

cscharlie's, Trick #1 - Use the male item to carefully chase threads with minor damage.

 

6500RPM's, Trick #2 - Making a tap to chase with, out of a appropriately sized male threaded item.

 

Stansplace's, Trick #3 - as per above.

 

I've already cleaned up the blatantly visible damage, and then used #1.

I'd rather find a actual tap, but if not, then #2 & #3 may get a their turns at bat.

...................................

 

 

 

Nobody knows of anyone having the actual tap for the gas block?

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

[tover26 18]

Chile,

 

Do you know why it happened? There's been a lot of discussion about how to fix it, but as someone without that problem right now, I'd be curious as to how to prevent a problem like this from happening. Anti-seize, fine. But, when I run through the scenarios where this might happen and given that it's seizing 3/5ths in, maybe:

- you had a shot loaded up with extra powder on setting 3 or something and it blew fragments into the threads

- you had some bad shot that powdered under pressure and ran your threads to the 3/5ths point

- you slammed your choke against something with enough force that it torqued the choke and bent the threads just off center point

- why do you think it happened?

 

I just got a KA puck on Friday and installed it. The instructions note that you are supposed to keep the puck lubricated for best performance. It also notes that tolerances for Russian manufacture aren't all that rigid resulting in diameter variances that might make it impossible to get the KA puck into the choke tube. For these, they note that if you have a micrometer you can measure the diameter and contact them and they'll make a puck to your gun's measurements. I had to tap my OEM puck out from the other side. When I did that, and it's not just the plug threads as the muzzle threads are this way too, the entire thing seems to get gritty and not want to go on or come off about halfway through the threads.

[nycGUNguy 61]

I was just talking to Cobra about this problem. Thanks for the detailed play by play. I was able to fix my issue by rethreading the original plug into the threads. It seems that they are cut deeper into the plug than the Guinfixr plug threads, or at least it seemed that way to me. I also got my new plug to fit but only with the gun in a vice and had to grind down one of my heavy screwdrivers as a tool to turn the knob. I will go to the range tomorrow to try it out...

 

 

 

nyclu3

[zakmatthews 14]

If wind and water can carve through rock, I don't see why a brass brush doing a few thousand RPMs can't screw up some steel threads.

 

Like you said, it could have been the steel rod that caused the problem. Either way, I dunno about using a brass brush that way.

 

Hope you find a fix that works out!

[G O B 3,516]

USE ANTI-SEEZE ON THOSE THREADS!

[Gunfixr 76]

Stans machinist fix works, and I've done it myself many times over the years. However, while hitting it from the side works, in this instance you need to be sure to support the other side of the gas block when doing this. The reason is that even though it has 2 pins holding it to the barrel, a good whack on one side will rotate it on the barrel slightly. Yes, even with the pins in.

 

What probably screwed up the threads to begin with was tapping out the puck. They are a very close fit, and if they get the least bit crooked, they bind. In the threads, if it gets crooked, it's sitting against a thread, and tapping on it will bend over the top of the inverted "V", making whatever screws into the threads not fit anymore. When removing or installing the puck, care needs to be taken when applying force, as this can happen. It shouldn't be tight anyway. It should be snug, but slide back and forth freely. If it's tight, gas energy that could be operating the gun is being used just to move the puck.

 

The factory is varying these bores too much to try to make the puck too tight, unless they're being made for individual guns. If the aftermarket pucks are oversize to factory, there will be some occaisional problems.

 

If a gas piston requires lube to work, it won't. It's too close. The heat and carbon will dry up and foul up the part.

 

The threads on the Gunfixr plug are cut the same, but different. They are cut to a slightly tighter machining tolerance, more towards the top for a better fit. Also, the end past the threads is larger in diameter, the same as the puck, in fact. This means the threads are actually cut from the slight groove in front of the threads to the groove behind the threads, so that there aren't thread grooves across the end. You can often see thread grooves all the way to the end of the factory plug. The reason for the larger end is to keep fouling out of the threads, and force more of the gas to the puck, instead of leaking forward away from the puck.

[elwoodm 0]

the best idea is to only fix the threads that are damaged. running a tap in will take metal off of everything it touches plus take a chance of doing more harm than good. the best way i have found is to take a metric thread file with the proper pitch and cut off a small portion just big enough to get as much of the file to make good contact with the inside threads. clamp this little section of file with needle nose vise grip and clean up just the threads that are bad. this way you can stop and test just how far you need to go with it. it will also help with cleaning duties in those threads and it doesnt hurt the rest of the thread file just use a thin dremell cutoff wheel to cut the file.

[tover26 18]

Sorry to resurrect this thread Chile, but I ran about 120 shells at the range tonight as part of the break in process for the KA tappet. It was disappointing, but this thread made me keenly aware of some things that happened. Like your experience, my KA tappet fits very tightly in the tube. I started wtih Remington managed recoil at gasfixer setting 3. 1 out of 3 FTE'd. So I opened up the choke, checked that the KA tappet looked okay... it was very black and charred looking. Because of being at the range, I didn't feel like dissassembling the gun and knocking it out. I wiped it out best I could.

 

Another 3 managed recoil slugs at setting 3 with 2 FTEs. I switched to HV Remington slugs, set to +1... and continued to have FTEs. 3 more slugs with setting at 2 and still had 2 FTEs. Moreover, the choke had gotten HOT and locked in. Having read through this thread, I decided to stop and not risk damaging the gun. Later, I had to use pliers and carefully twist out gunfixer's plug. The entire chamber was full of black char and it took a while of very careful shoe-hammering to get the KA tappet out. The entire thing, rings, and the 3 gas ports where junked up.

 

I've concluded that, as KA says in their instructions, that some of their tappets will fit too tightly due to differences in the Saiga manufacturing process. Because it fit too tightly, it wasn't moving like it's supposed to and that caused the heating and junk build up. I want to thank you for posting your experience as I'm very confident that had I not read through this, I would have kept shooting and fucked my gun up. I've got the factory one back in and will see if KA has any suggestions.

Edited June 13, 2009 by EricinMaryland

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Sorry to resurrect this thread Chile, but I ran about 120 shells at the range tonight as part of the break in process for the KA tappet. It was disappointing, but this thread made me keenly aware of some things that happened. Like your experience, my KA tappet fits very tightly in the tube. I started wtih Remington managed recoil at gasfixer setting 3. 1 out of 3 FTE'd. So I opened up the choke, checked that the KA tappet looked okay... it was very black and charred looking. Because of being at the range, I didn't feel like dissassembling the gun and knocking it out. I wiped it out best I could.

 

Another 3 managed recoil slugs at setting 3 with 2 FTEs. I switched to HV Remington slugs, set to +1... and continued to have FTEs. 3 more slugs with setting at 2 and still had 2 FTEs. Moreover, the choke had gotten HOT and locked in. Having read through this thread, I decided to stop and not risk damaging the gun. Later, I had to use pliers and carefully twist out gunfixer's plug. The entire chamber was full of black char and it took a while of very careful shoe-hammering to get the KA tappet out. The entire thing, rings, and the 3 gas ports where junked up.

 

I've concluded that, as KA says in their instructions, that some of their tappets will fit too tightly due to differences in the Saiga manufacturing process. Because it fit too tightly, it wasn't moving like it's supposed to and that caused the heating and junk build up. I want to thank you for posting your experience as I'm very confident that had I not read through this, I would have kept shooting and fucked my gun up. I've got the factory one back in and will see if KA has any suggestions.

Have you seen/read the thread in KA's section? I brought up my experience in response to his asking if anyone has had any issues.

My KA tappets base was out of spec, and the front showing some unusual wear.

I'm thinking that the sharp leading edge of the KA may make the possibility of damaging the threads more likely if much care is not taken during removal.

I'd like to see that edge flattened, it would strengthen it and lessen the chance of it biting into the threads.

 

Anyways, KA sent me a new one, it fits great & slides freely within the gas block.

 

I'm probably going out in the AM to run a few hundred rounds thru it and see how it performs, see whether it fouls so badly.

Granted tho, the original & Chaos pucks fouled to the point that they too had to be knocked out of the gas block.

The fouling in this gas system is incredible, not only powder & carbon, but plastic wad too.

I'm going to pick up some wad solvent and mix a little solvent cocktail, loosen it up a good bit before removing.

...................................

 

Damaged threads aside, serious shit like that blows... This kind'a stuff actually makes the S12 so damned interesting and fun for me.

A gun that I can fuck with, that needs/demands fucking with... Charming, isn't it?