Juggernaut 11,054 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Ok, man. Honestly I admire the examples of your work that I've seen. As for being a business member, my guess that you were not previously was exactly that.. I was guessing at why this thread was "altered" by Juggernaut. I see I was wrong. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, and I'm sorry it came across that way. He has been around for a better part of a year now... and I edited the thread because we had 3 pages of CRAP that was counterproductive for everybody..... Trust me... last thing I wanted to do... lost money on a job being late because of it....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Ok, man. Honestly I admire the examples of your work that I've seen. As for being a business member, my guess that you were not previously was exactly that.. I was guessing at why this thread was "altered" by Juggernaut. I see I was wrong. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, and I'm sorry it came across that way. He has been around for a better part of a year now... and I edited the thread because we had 3 pages of CRAP that was counterproductive for everybody..... Trust me... last thing I wanted to do... lost money on a job being late because of it....... Gotcha, Jugg. Your dedication to this forum is damned impressive, and we all benefit from it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glockmonger 18 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 The bolt, bolt head and carrier look freaking great, familiar, but great. I speak from experience when I say this mod makes it a night and day difference. I know cause I do the same damn thing. The guys that do shoot comp with some of my builds love the hell out of this mod. I had a vid of a mag change with OUT the mod but I am waiting for the weather to cool off to train some more and will eventually get a vid of a mag change with the mod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lvjeffro 30 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Some of you guys just dont get it The guns Jack builds and the guns I build are designed for competition They are not mall ninja crap with spikes and stupid shit hanging all over them In the games we shoot one half of a second in a course of fire may be the difference between first place and fortieth place. And we dont shoot against Bubba out in some corn field. We have to compete against the VERY BEST three gun shooters in the WORLD!!! One malfunction...one missed mag change ...one miss with a slug at 100+ yard target...and you lose the match And the matches are pretty big time stuff...Next week I shoot the Rocky Mountain 3 gun at the NRA Whittington center in Raton N.M. It is one of the smaller matches...the Prize table is only $150,000.00 I have seen many over $300,000.00 So you see we have to have or build the best stuff that money can buy. If your stuff dont work...you lose, Any single part that fails or causes you some disadvantage you lose. Jack builds guns to Win...and so do I. Jim Amen Jim, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 It doesent take much effort or brains to load it with the bolt closed ,no offense to your thread here.The bolt carrier does look good chromed Let me try and explain this to you. Yes, anyone can load a Saiga 12 with a full mag on an unmodified closed bolt, we all know this and it goes without saying. But, how long does it take you to do it? Now take a properly modified bolt and you can load as fast on a closed bolt as you can load on an open bolt. It is effortless. IT IS ALL ABOUT BEING ABLE TO SPEED LOAD THE SAIGA ON A CLOSED BOLT, with a round still in the chamber. This is what the mod is for. Now please do not try and tell me you can speed load your Saiga 12 with an unmodified bolt on a closed bolt. If you think you can, then you definitely have no idea of what can be done with this weapons platform. With practice you can load in 1.5 seconds from the shouldered presentation. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I can load a full10 roundl mag with no problems with the bolt closed. Golly, you must be a big boy. I bet you go to the bathroom all by yourself to. Sorry, couldn't help myself. Won't happen again. Jack chill out, take it easy,its going to be ok lol,the chrome looks good ,im just saying that it dosent take a rocket scientist to load the saiga with the bolt closed a monkey could do it. unless your old and weak "whoops" Damn, I love a good challenge. Here is what I will offer to anyone who thinks they can load as fast on an un-modified bolt as someone can on a modified bolt.. I will give $1000.00 to anyone who can beat me doing the following; I will shoot 10 steel plates, make a mag change and then shoot 10 more plates. You only have to shoot 5 plates, make a reload and then shoot 5 plates. We will utilize a regular shot timer, audible start to last shot fired. Should be pretty easy to take the money from an old guy. I can be found in West Palm Beach, FL. or at Fort Polk, LA. Which ever is easy for you to get to. Just show up, beat me and I will give you the cash. Regards, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Let us know when you are at Ft. Polk. I wouldn't mind running one just to see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Let us know when you are at Ft. Polk. I wouldn't mind running one just to see. I will be back at Polk from the 17th to the 26th of August training for the Arkansas 3 Gun Championship. Give a call, then drop on by. We have a private testing/training range, so shooting ain't a problem. Plenty of reactive steel targets. I need to get some video shot also. Jack 561 317-9096 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
r40734 19 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Is this a challenge to prove the effectiveness of the modified bolt and carrier versus an unmodified bolt and carrier? Or just a good old fashioned challenge, Man-vs-Man? By the way, I've seen jdtravers' work on a Saiga 12 first hand and it was incredible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Is this a challenge to prove the effectiveness of the modified bolt and carrier versus an unmodified bolt and carrier? Or just a good old fashioned challenge, Man-vs-Man? By the way, I've seen jdtravers' work on a Saiga 12 first hand and it was incredible. Definitely heads up racing, "Man on Man", turn the pressure up!!! Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Well if anyone steps up do this offer, be sure someone is recording it. I want to see. Just show up, beat me and I will give you the cash. That sounds dirty. :lol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koliadko 207 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Well if anyone steps up do this offer, be sure someone is recording it. I want to see. Just show up, beat me and I will give you the cash. That sounds dirty. :lol: LOL, OMG, it does, doesn't it. Didn't catch it the first time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glockmonger 18 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey, Jack; Please record that. I would like to watch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I don't suppose anyone has a decent picture of one of these "professionally machined" bolt & carrier sets do they? The one the OP posted ain't all that... It's blurry and all washed out from the extra shiny BC maybe... I'm honestly interested to see just what makes it so special. How is a bolt and carrier that has been "professionally machined" on the best equipment, by "one of the most reputable gunsmithing business and custom gun builders in the industry"...one tiny bit better than one that some guy did with a dremel in a trailer? (figuratively speaking of course...) I happen to know of a real leader in the industry, who I believe uses a DA sander to reshape his. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I don't suppose anyone has a decent picture of one of these "professionally machined" bolt & carrier sets do they? The one the OP posted ain't all that... It's blurry and all washed out from the extra shiny BC maybe...I'm honestly interested to see just what makes it so special. How is a bolt and carrier that has been "professionally machined" on the best equipment, by "one of the most reputable gunsmithing business and custom gun builders in the industry"...one tiny bit better than one that some guy did with a dremel in a trailer? (figuratively speaking of course...) I happen to know of a real leader in the industry, who I believe uses a DA sander to reshape his. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I don't suppose anyone has a decent picture of one of these "professionally machined" bolt & carrier sets do they? The one the OP posted ain't all that... It's blurry and all washed out from the extra shiny BC maybe...I'm honestly interested to see just what makes it so special. How is a bolt and carrier that has been "professionally machined" on the best equipment, by "one of the most reputable gunsmithing business and custom gun builders in the industry"...one tiny bit better than one that some guy did with a dremel in a trailer? (figuratively speaking of course...) I happen to know of a real leader in the industry, who I believe uses a DA sander to reshape his. Cobra, Come on now. How can you possibly maintain tolerances with a dremmel tool. When I make a .050 cut with the milling maching, it is exactly a .050 cut. I can push the tollerance to the maximum without worrying about damaging the bolt. It is all about being able to repeat the service the same way every time to the exact specifications. If you had access to quality, professional machine tools, I am sure you would be performing this service on them and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But you don't, so get over it! The milling machine is only one step in the process. I also use a vertical belt sander to shape the bolt, but I have already taken it to the proper dimensions with the milling maching. Then I use a silicon carbide wheel to finalize the shape, followed by a high speed polishing machine to polish the surface to its final finish. I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. I offer a professional service to the customer at a fair price. That's all there is to it. As I said before, this is the beauty of free enterprise, people have a choice. If they want the service done by a professional or by a guy with a dremmel tool. It is their choice. I am a master machinist and a GUNSMITH. I shoot the Saiga 12 professionally in competition and everything I have learned and the products I have developed go directly to the customer. I do this because I love doing it, but I can't do it for free. The proof is in the performance. Regards, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Make no mistake. I don't want to argue or be in any pissing contests either. I'm just wondering how you can get better results on a part that is pretty much round, by using the milling machine. Like you said, I do have one I could use, although I'm sure yours costs thousands more. I've done at least 20 of these things by hand and I've got it down to a science. I only damaged one of my own, one of the very first ones I did. Every single person who has gotten one was extremely happy with the work and improved performance. I honestly believe you can pay very good attention to detail doing it by hand. If there's a way to get better results letting a machine do it then I'm interested in just how, that's all. Maybe I'll try one like that today.... Edit... Well some of that may not make sense now because you edited your post while I was typing... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glockmonger 18 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey Cobra, I also cut mine by hand then blend and polish. I also can do it with a mill if I wanted, but I find the mill on this to be a waist of machine time. When I am done with the parts, the loaded mag clicks in with very, very little pressure from one finger. But as you see I do mine a bit more extreme then most others I have seen. I also would like to see good close ups of a milled assembly. I like to combine this procedure with a FCG action job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Very nice work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glockmonger 18 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Very nice work! Thank you, Kind Sir. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 This is going to be my last reply, because seriously, this is counter productive and anyone who truly is an experience machinist or gunsmith will know what I am talking about. I take off .050 from the flat of the bolt to start with and make the bolt dimensionally the same all the way arround. It takes me less than 3 minutes from setup to completion and it is a precision cut. It is a round section into a FLAT section the first shell passes under to lock the magazine into the receiver. I machine the .050 from the flat blended into the round section. This is not a waste of machine time, it is utilizing a machine to SAVE time. Why the fuck would I want to waste time doing it by hand when I can do it by machine. This is what they are for. I do my blending and final polishing on the wheels/sanders, but the bulk of the cut is with a milling machine. You are possibly not taking off enough materiel if you are doing it all by hand and you will not gain the full potential of this modification. Maybe you are, BUT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN INITIAL INDEX CUT TO GAUGE YOUR BLENDING, then it is all guess work doing it by hand. This is the difference between a machinist/gunsmith and some guy working on a gun. Come on guys, I NEVER said mine is bigger or better than yours. I provide a service, a customer commented on it, and you showed your ass. Leave it alone. I never even advertised this service, but you are doing a good job for me!!! And by the way, I did his bolt for FREE. I did it to help him out because I could. I help a lot of people in this regard so they can enjoy the potential of the Saiga 12 Shotgun. No good deed goes unpunished. Regards, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Glockmonger 18 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I have to apologize if you think I was blasting you for that. Like I said in my first post, it looks good. I like seeing other gunsmiths work. But at the same time I like to see how they do it different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcec1 72 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey Cobra, I also cut mine by hand then blend and polish. I also can do it with a mill if I wanted, but I find the mill on this to be a waist of machine time. When I am done with the parts, the loaded mag clicks in with very, very little pressure from one finger. But as you see I do mine a bit more extreme then most others I have seen. I also would like to see good close ups of a milled assembly. I like to combine this procedure with a FCG action job. Wow I can see my self Damn thats shinny hehe A+ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 No problem. Before anyone asks, the answer is NO! (I won't do your bolt/carrier for free) Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I've got no dog in this fight, but I've got to call bullshit on some of the posts in this thread. We've got guys here who are doing quality work on S12's, that are developing products that we all can use. And it one bullshit post after another, is he a biz member?, I can do that myself!, I do mine this way!, you don't need no mods if you're a man! Jesus fucking christ, grow the fuck up. If you don't want the mod, can do it yourself, or have a different way to do it than yippie ki-yay. If it was just a discussion on techniques, it would be one thing. But the criticizing of paid business member is out of line IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 +2 Nuff said. Leave it alone. If it wasn't for all the drama queens wanting to weigh in on every post here, we wouldn't have threads go awry and end up in the trash can. Jack runs a respectable business and does excellent work. So do other Business Members on this forum. There are some jobs some of us do, that overlap. As long as one is not berating the other's work or techniques, and everyone is happy with work done by said individuals, then there's absolutely no problem, and no need for hoopla. If nobody has anything positive to say from here out, then please keep it to yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
krusader 1 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I've got no dog in this fight, but I've got to call bullshit on some of the posts in this thread. We've got guys here who are doing quality work on S12's, that are developing products that we all can use. And it one bullshit post after another, is he a biz member?, I can do that myself!, I do mine this way!, you don't need no mods if you're a man! Jesus fucking christ, grow the fuck up. If you don't want the mod, can do it yourself, or have a different way to do it than yippie ki-yay. If it was just a discussion on techniques, it would be one thing. But the criticizing of paid business member is out of line IMO. Paladin, why don't you use allah, or buddah when you cuzz like this? Just curious? You are using God's name in vain, and it is really offensive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
krusader 1 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 This is going to be my last reply, because seriously, this is counter productive and anyone who truly is an experience machinist or gunsmith will know what I am talking about. I take off .050 from the flat of the bolt to start with and make the bolt dimensionally the same all the way arround. It takes me less than 3 minutes from setup to completion and it is a precision cut. It is a round section into a FLAT section the first shell passes under to lock the magazine into the receiver. I machine the .050 from the flat blended into the round section. This is not a waste of machine time, it is utilizing a machine to SAVE time. Why the fuck would I want to waste time doing it by hand when I can do it by machine. This is what they are for. I do my blending and final polishing on the wheels/sanders, but the bulk of the cut is with a milling machine. You are possibly not taking off enough materiel if you are doing it all by hand and you will not gain the full potential of this modification. Maybe you are, BUT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN INITIAL INDEX CUT TO GAUGE YOUR BLENDING, then it is all guess work doing it by hand. This is the difference between a machinist/gunsmith and some guy working on a gun. Come on guys, I NEVER said mine is bigger or better than yours. I provide a service, a customer commented on it, and you showed your ass. Leave it alone. I never even advertised this service, but you are doing a good job for me!!! And by the way, I did his bolt for FREE. I did it to help him out because I could. I help a lot of people in this regard so they can enjoy the potential of the Saiga 12 Shotgun. No good deed goes unpunished. Regards, Jack Jack if I ever need anything done to my S12, I will go to you, you sound like a stand up guy who knows what he is talking about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 I've got no dog in this fight, but I've got to call bullshit on some of the posts in this thread. We've got guys here who are doing quality work on S12's, that are developing products that we all can use. And it one bullshit post after another, is he a biz member?, I can do that myself!, I do mine this way!, you don't need no mods if you're a man! Jesus fucking christ, grow the fuck up. If you don't want the mod, can do it yourself, or have a different way to do it than yippie ki-yay. If it was just a discussion on techniques, it would be one thing. But the criticizing of paid business member is out of line IMO. Paladin, why don't you use allah, or buddah when you cuzz like this? Just curious? You are using God's name in vain, and it is really offensive. Basically because I grew up in America, I learned to cuss like an American. I'm sure if I had been raised in the Middle East or Asia I would have used allah or buddah. Hopefully, that answers your question. If you're offended, wow, you probably get offended a lot. Oh, and by the way, I don't beleive in gods, devils, ghosts, angels, fairies, demons, or any other mythical beings. Perhaps that sheds a little light on the matter for you also. Although, now that I think about it, I know many christians that say "god dammit" or "jesus fucking christ" , etc, so perhaps my personal disdain for religions has nothing to do with it and it is merely a colloquial use of expressive language that is intended to emphasize statements as opposed to an attempt to insult anyone's belief system. Yea, that's it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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