Walther P22 for Home Defense?

[Tokageko 8]

Ok, so this friend of mine just decided to get his FOID card (another one corrupted, yay!) and is considering what to buy after it comes through the mail. As of the moment, he is considering a pistol for home-defence use. He asked me a very strange question: "Do you think the Walther P22 would work for home defence?" I think that has to be the first time in quite a while that I've been speechless when asked anything about guns, whether I knew the answer off the top of my head or had to do some research first.

 

I told him I'd get back to him on it.

 

The situation: He lives in a low rent area of town, though not neccessarily a high-crime area. His apartment is very small, only three rooms to it really. His door is at the top of a creaky set of wooden stairs (outside the building) and his door might be able to keep a determined 10 year old out. Landlord has said several times that he is going to fix it. He's 22 years old, has no girlfriend or room-mate, and no children. I am almost certain that there are no people with young children living in the area. Concealed carry is not a legal option here, and he's not very concerned about the need for it. He just wants to have something "just in case".

 

So, really, I just want to hear some oppinions on whether or not the Walther P22 would work as a home defence gun. Please give it some thought before saying it won't work. All comments/questions welcome.

[Diggler 0]

It would kill someone but probably not as quickly as you would need it to. It would kill but probably not stop, which is important because he could take the Walther off of you and beat you to death with it before he bleeds out.

 

I don't know if money is an issue but why doesn't he look at something like a Makarov if he needs a budget priced, rock solid handgun?

[k_dawg 0]

Owning a P22, I would not wish to risk my life on it. It's a fun little range gun, but it can be "finicky" with ammo, etc. The newer revisions seem to be a bit better thou.

 

It also isn't "cheap", especially for what it is. At a lower price point, for a new semi-automatic.. I'ld look at a Bersa .380 Thunder.

 

Also, there are a ton of .38 special revolvers that will be great for basic defence.

[Doerdie 0]

I have the same opinion on them, they tend to jam when you least want them to. It seems to cycle better with CCI mini-mag ammo, makes me think it in the power of the round. A good .380 or 9mm would be much better. If he goes the .22 route make sure its a hi-cap(10+rds) and cycles everytime.

Any gun is better than no gun when you need one.

Edited March 3, 2005 by Doerdie

[Diggler 0]

I haven't heard much good about the Walthers... except they're fun with a suppressor on them.

[stokstad 4]

Even as "inexpensive" as those may seem it is even in their scarecity still cheaper to but an S12. Hell I think you can still get .410s dirt cheap. I would trust that well before a 22. Kinda expensive to shoot but for home defense you only need a clip or 2. Like the others have said a 22 may kill a person but it doesnt have the stopping power. I would bet he likes the looks of the p22. If thats the case tell him to save up a bit and get a p99. I dont know anything of their quality or reliabilty. But they look the like a p22 but have some balls to them.

[Tokageko 8]

I hadn't heard much about reliability issues with the P22, or even found a decent review anywhere for that matter. To tell you the truth, I don't even know what the capacity is on the P22. Honestly though? For price considerations, I'd think about the Charles Daly CZ 75 clones (9mm). I believe they start around $299. Again, haven't been able to find anything about them.

 

I have to admit that I was intrigued by the idea of using a 22lr pistol for home defence, in a very small home that is. My reasoning goes like this:

 

Maximum Probable Range: 15 feet

 

Accuracy Potential of Pistol at Estimated MPR: Head Shot (with good support and practice)

 

Relevance: - at close ranges jacketed bullets will puncture the human skull

- hollow points would enter the body and likely expand very rapidly

- due to low recoil and short range good shot placement should be attainable

- for the same reasons multiple on target shots should be attainable (for the body at least)

- using a low powered round gives him the option of not killing an intruder

- the accuracy and power of the cartridge (especially with "hotter" ammo) also allow for the possibility of killing if neccessary

 

The way I picture the most likely scenario is this: Someone breaks in to my friend's apartment. He wakes up and retrieves the gun from next to his bed. Then he takes cover behind his bed and steadies himself, keeping his gun pointed at the door to his room. If the person tries to get in, he tells them he will shoot if they do not leave. If they come in, he shoots to the body, then to the head if the person doesn't stop. If the intruder doesn't stop, (assuming he is very close at this point) then he grabs one of his knives (stored under the bed) and proceeds as necessary.

 

Other escape routes are not an option in this particular situation. I'm not saying that 22lr is the perfect round for this, just that it could work. Any oppinions?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

On the Walther P22, NO, NO, and for the last time NO. Once in a while I hear of one working correctly. Yes a 22 is better than nothing (and better than a 25), but if he must use a 22, it ought to be reliable, and not too many are. Good ones include the Beretta NEOS (similarly priced) and Browning Buckmark (more expensive).

 

Though the ammo costs more per round, a 9x18mm Makarov would be a far far far better choice and would be about $100 less (assuming prices are uniformly different over there.) Most Makarovs never jam.

 

And yes a Saiga 410 would be worlds better for home defense. Whatever he uses, if it's in close quarters make sure it won't overpenetrate the walls and hurt an innocent person. Make sure to use hollowpoint or hydrashok bullets, even frangible ones are a possibility. If he can't find them in 9mm Mak, there are conversion kits for 380 ACP which is even milder, and is available in many different loadings.

 

Other choices that are better AND less expensive include any pump shotgun loaded with birdshot (buck or slugs may overpenetrate), and probably even a double barreled or single shot shotgun. Another option would be a Hi-Point carbine in 9x19mm.

[Tokageko 8]

BRG3, thanks. I thought I was the only one who thought birdshot in a pump gun was acceptable for home defence. It's nice to know I'm not alone. ; )

 

Just for the record, I do in fact know that there are many better choices than a P22, or other 22lr handgun. Actually, come to think of it, I did tell my friend this when he asked. His response was: "Ok, but still... Would it work?"

 

Thanks for the replies; I think I've got my answer on whether or not it would work.

 

Just for reference, I am planning on advising him to buy something more reliable, in a larger caliber. I honestly didn't know anything regarding the reliability issues with the P22. I wonder, do the same issues apply to the Wlather G22 bull-pup rifle?

 

I've been interested in it, but couldn't justify the price tag, especially on a gun I knew practically nothing about. Anbody have some experience with the G22?

 

BTW: ...not suggesting the G22 be used as an HD weapon, just something fun to shoot now and again. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[PM2790 0]

For $125 to $175 he should get a 12 gauge pump shotgun. Have it checked by a gunsmith. Take it to a range and practice. Put some #6-#8 shotshells in it to avoid overpenetration.

 

Shotgun: Longer sight radius for more accurate aiming.

More intimidating visually.

Tops in stopping power. 7/8 to 1 oz. shotload trumps any pistol bullet.

When you run out of ammo you still have an effective club.

 

Handgun: Short sight radius.

Wimpy visual effect.

A .22 hurts. Bad guy will make you pay for that. Pray that you get

a brain shot the first time.

When you run out of ammo a pistol makes a nifty bookmark.

[Tokageko 8]

Thanks PM2790. He actually has access to a 12 gauge pump gun. As of the moment I believe it is in storage. It would not have been legal for him to be in direct possession of it without a FOID card. As I am an exponent of shotguns for home defence, and combat use, I will also advise him to get it out of storage.

 

As for handguns, I've had that argument before. I'm on your side with it. I just don't want to debate what the "best" weapon is again. If you're curious, take a look at the Saiga-12 forum in the shotgun section and look for.... "Help me build a Defence shotgun" or something like that. It was started by eston. I started out being pretty reasonable, but then got carried away. I took it too seriously, and I'm honestly trying to avoid doing that again, with any topic.

 

hehehe, oh well, such is the curse associated with "being right all the time"

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Shot a NEOS 2 weeks ago.......I can't believe I'm actually interested in a .22 because of it...

 

very good feel to it while firing.......Best accuracy at 7/15yd lines in any pistol i've ever shot.

 

And beginner shooters will not buck, and anticipate the next shot as there is soo little recoil.

 

oh yeah..we had the short 4 barrel. I'd get the 6 long barrel.

[pistonring8 1]

The F.A.C. catalog ( www.gunsnstuff.net ) has double and singe barrel shotgun pistols for under $200. Dicks Sporting Goods sells a short 12 guage side by side shotty called a "Coach Gun" that is of good quality.

 

IMHO any gun is good for home defence. But a shotty is the ultimate home defence weapon! I should buy one.

[Bvamp 604]

a 22 is good if you can get up close to the person trying to harm you (unlikely you will get away unscathed) and either punching the perp in the chest and firing, or firing into the temple or eye. I would suggest neither, as you will be in a situation where you are in the process of "going down" and you are likely to be overpowered at that point.

 

as for shotguns, he might consider a cheap 20 guage pump with birdshot like was suggested, or if hes set on a handgun, I would suggest a DA/SA wheelgun type. a decent make wheelgun will NEVER fail you. ever. 38 is about a minimum of calibers, but like you said it will be very close range. more likely than not, if he does need to use it, it will be for scare effect and he will need to worry about where and how far his misses go. 44mag is defiantely out in that case, as is a 357. 9mm might be a good choice, plus the ammo is reasonably cheap to buy so he can practice a lot with it.

 

there is one other thing to consider: ammo. air marshals carry 32 autos with frangible man killers in them sometimes these days. they are guaranteed to take a gallon jug of flesh with it. (yes even the little 32 auto round) if you can GET rounds like that in your state, and they are legal to have in the gun, then anything goes. if he is insistant on a 22, tell him to get one that can accept a magazine with 20 rounds in it, as he will need them all.

 

I myself believe in the 12 gauge. this is my theory: you can fight a war with one, you can feed your family with one, they are a HUGE amount of fun to shoot moving targets with, and the noise of any shotgun action racking, bolt or pump, is one scary friggin sound in the dark. and considering entry teams have one of the first guys armed with a shotgun, its proven indoors tactically. a light skeet load with 8's is all you need, and you dont need a warning shot, as the action noise is a LOUD warning someone is about to be hurt bad. plus it is guaranteed to stop just about anyone at close range. you can also clobber someone with it if you need to. its something that if stolen, it isnt a huge issue (relative to a stolen handgun), as its not concealable. if someone knows he has a pistol, that might be reason enough for the crackhead next door to break in and take it. a common shotgun? less likely in my opinion that someone will target his apratment specifically to take it.

 

tell him to invest in a deadbolt while hes at it, and good window locks. I lived in a similar type of situation as he does, and i found out after moving the super there was a thief and was entering peoples apartments with his set of keys and stealing from people. my deadbolt i bought saved me the hassle of knowing that it was happening, and all my stuff was more or less safe. (i wouldnt be as nice as the rest of the people and call the cops on him, so hes smart not to have tried the crap on me) trust noone else to protect you and your property is my theory.

[shotgun_lobotomy 0]

my p22 hasnt jammed i about 3000 rounds, id say the .22 is a lil weak but better than nothing, just use a solid round nose high velocity, the p22 does have one advantage, u can faire those ten rounds at great acuracy at a almost full auto rate, in about the time that u can rack the slide of a pump shotgun and fire, i keep my p22 rright next to my bed with a lazer on it set at 20ft.

[JiiKoo 0]

i keep my p22 rright next to my bed with a lazer on it set at 20ft.

 

I can't help it, but sometimes I have doubts about some peoples mental health. I you living at some freekin war zone or what?

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

i keep my p22 rright next to my bed with a lazer on it set at 20ft.

 

I can't help it, but sometimes I have doubts about some peoples mental health. I you living at some freekin war zone or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yeah..its called living in the US....you never know what asshat is coming to relieve you of something.......

 

even in the best neighborhood.

[PM2790 0]

Unfortunately, as you start stepping up in .22 velocity, you now have a bullet capable of pentrating two layers of drywall. So, if you miss your target, you not only have to worry about the bad guy getting that much closer to you before you fire again, you get to wonder who you did shoot on the other side of the wall.

 

Let's look at this one more way. If you hunt, a .22 is good for rabbits, squirrels, groundhogs, etc. Is it good to drop a deer or wild hog? Of course not. A 200 pound bad guy outweighs either of those two. Why would you suggest a .22?

 

Now don't misunderstand. I love shooting .22s. Your friend in question should buy a .22 pistol because they are fun and useful. I would not advise him to use it in a home defense situation if he has a shotgun to use instead.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

cuz it looks like a walther 9mm

[Bvamp 604]

Jiikoo: here in the US we have a thing called "home invasion" in where the robbers come into your home, tie you up, and take piers to your fingers or your loved one's fingers until you give over your money and other property, sometimes they will go so far as to force you to go to your bank and withdraw your money for them. there have been a few incidents of this in my local area in recent years, so it can and does happen. we also have a thing called "drug addicts" who will kill you for a dollar and change without thinking twice, even in your own home.

 

its not very likely to happen to any single one of us, but in the event that it DOES happen.....

 

its good to be able to protect yourself

 

I still think its better to just put a 12 gauge round into thier chest or head, or even both. they will hit the floor so hard and so completely dead, they wont get a shot off at you or your wife and kids. like i said, if the crook turns out to not be armed, you can always clobber the bastard with the buttstock...

 

when going to a gunfight, be the one with the bigger gun is my theory.

[k_dawg 0]

I bet alot of fights ended with simply the sound of "racking" a pump 12gauge.

[Tokageko 8]

k_dawg: For quite a while I wasn't a fan of the "intimidation power" of hearing the slide racked on a pump shotgun. I was convinced though after hearing a couple of stories about it actually working. I'm sure there are more than I've heard about, as you said.

 

Either way, I've come up with a compromise to use: Load the magazine to capacity, then pull the slide back and push it forward slightly, finish by topping off the magazine. The shotgun I use holds the shell, that is to be chambered, very reliably. So, now the gun is ready to use by just pushing the slide forward and pressing the safety. It still makes noise, but I feel better knowing that I have that extra shell, and that it takes less time than pulling the slide back and pushing it forward again (however marginally it may be).

 

Bvamp: Thanks for the advice. I believe he already has a deadbolt lock, but I'm not completely certain. If he doesn't, I'll pass along that it would be a good idea; along with the window locks.

Edited March 8, 2005 by Tokageko

[Coastie 0]

Been away for awhile and it's good to be back amongst who I would consider, some of the world's more intelligent people.

 

Many good points have been made about the use of a .22 as a home defense weapon as well as the shotgun approach. Personally, I wouldn't rely on any .22 caliber as a personal/home defense weapon unless I had squirrels breaking into my place. I second the use of a good 12 gauge pump if price is a consideration. I have many handguns and as a retired LEO, I can assure you that a 12 gauge pump shotgun as your first line of defense is far more rational than any .22 caliber. Hoodrats and crackheads generally wear layers of clothing and you want something with more penetration and knockdown power than a .22 caliber.

 

Think of it this way, if you had Mike Tyson comin at you and your family in the middle of the night, what weapon do you think would best put him down? I can assure you it wouldn't be a .22 caliber.

 

Just my $.02 opinion.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

Been away for awhile and it's good to be back amongst who I would consider, some of the world's more intelligent people.

 

Many good points have been made about the use of a .22 as a home defense weapon as well as the shotgun approach.  Personally, I wouldn't rely on any .22 caliber as a personal/home defense weapon unless I had squirrels breaking into my place.  I second the use of a good 12 gauge pump if price is a consideration.  I have many handguns and as a retired LEO, I can assure you that a 12 gauge pump shotgun as your first line of defense is far more rational than any .22 caliber.  Hoodrats and crackheads generally wear layers of clothing and you want something with more penetration and knockdown power than a .22 caliber. 

 

Think of it this way, if you had Mike Tyson comin at you and your family in the middle of the night, what weapon do you think would best put him down?  I can assure you it wouldn't be a .22 caliber.

 

Just my $.02 opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

sounds good put that way.

 

Kimber .45acp outta do allright.

[Bvamp 604]

another way to look at it is like this:

 

22 == you MUST fire to scare em off, if you do scare em off. such a thing in most places is a crime, as it is intentionall discharging a weapon in public without cause.

 

12 pump == no warning shot, only an action racking as warning. most would be robbers hear that and believe me, it WILL scare them. the only one that would continue to enter is someone that WANTS to kill you. further, scaring off someone in that manner will allow them to "pass the word" on your residence as "crazy dude was going to blast me with a shotgun! DONT go there".

[shotgun_lobotomy 0]

not really vamp, my p22 looks like a evil f*cker and i think the red dot on their chest is better than a sound anyday

[G O B 3,516]

.22 for HD is like digging a foxhole with a spoon-it's not the proper tool, but if there is nothing else available.... If at all possible for HD, use a shotgun with #1-#4 buckshot. The proper tool for the job.

 

G O B

[Bvamp 604]

thing is? that gun wont be visible in the dark, and the laser emitter shows them what to aim for as they turn and run. plus they wont know you ahve it until they are in the room with you.

[k_dawg 0]

I know its bad form to recommend a non saiga shotgun..

 

But a Mossberg 500 "Cruiser" 18" pistol grip can be had cheap.. and is very good for defense. Basic, always reliable.. just business for cheap.

 

http://www.usagunsales.com/store/customer/...&cat=148&page=2

 

And, one advantage of the barrel mag, is you can more reliably load different ammo. i.e. 2 bird shot, then slugs.

[JDA1 0]

I would not recommend a .22 for self defense. EVER! A year ago while in my back yard doing a little casual plinking one of my neighbors dogs (a Chow mix) came after me. Eight out of Ten shots from my Firestorm .22 were solid hits (one even went into his muzzle) but he still got a good size peice of me (19 stiches). He was stopped by my 12 year old with a shovel. By the way the dog only weighed 57 pounds, so uhhh you do the math! Keep Shooting!