GMThirteen 0 Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 I am a U.S. Navy Gunners Mate with 12 years under my belt and still going strong.I di my own Saiga 12 conversion and two others for very close friends. Question is. How do I get to be a certified Saiga gunsmith and/or converter.I figured Hell,I can do it easy,I might as well make money doing it.Thanks again guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Well, you will need an SOT (manufacturer's license) first off... To get certified as a saiga mechanic isnt really that simple, and there is only one that I know of that was offered by the factory in Russia to become a factory certified Armorer for Itzmash, and that is the current warranty holder for the US importer, Tom Cole of Cadiz Gun Works.....(hey, whadda ya know, I work for Tom!) Further, you will have to pay an excise tax and stamp every gun, if you plan to do more than 50 a year (which wouldnt be difficult to achieve in short order, do you really want to call your 49 prior customers to ask for the gun back to stamp and pay a tax on that you didnt collect?) It is considered by the BATF that changing the gun's imported configuration back to the AK pattern, is indeed manufacturing, and unless you do one here and there for a freind, without the primary intent of making a profit or income, you will need to be licensed in the manufacture of firearms.... Hope this helps you get a start.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Ah...an SOT is a 'permit' to build fun(er) toys. A 07 FFL is a manufacturing license One needs an 07 plus an SOT to build, for example, full auto, short barrel, suppressed toys (or all of the above). Just an 07 lets you built guns that are not restricted under the NFA. Gunsmithing is fun. Running a shop is more fun. Learn to like Ramon noodles Alex 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I thought you just needed an FFL? He's not making the gun... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 (edited) I thought you just needed an FFL? He's not making the gun... If he is buying Saiga 12s for the purpose of both converting and reselling them, then yes believe it or not that does fall under what the ATF would consider manufacturing. The rumour is that the ATF deliberately takes a very broad definition of what is manufacturing, in order to increase the revenue the ATF collects from dealers and gunsmiths who then also have to get a manufacturing license. Anyway here it is straight from the FAQ ( http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h6 ) on the ATF website: (H6)May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms? Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms. (see http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/071907firearms_manufacturing_scenarios.pdf ). Edited September 16, 2009 by Frogfoot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm not sure who I despise more.. the BATFE or the IRS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thanks Frogfoot. So I guess if he just takes work in, then he's good to go on an 01. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 But if you want to just convert and you are not the guy actually purchasing the firearms, you should be ok with just an FFL right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Under the "latest guess" i think you would call it. Anyone doing a profile change is manufacturing. Just an 01 liscense can get into troube just cutting off an old Mauser stock, or putting new sights on a 1911. The writing is on the wall, so to speak, for the home conversion jobs, I just posted this letter from ATF yesterday. The 922R is not nearly as enforcable as this letter......... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 It is considered by the BATF that changing the gun's imported configuration back to the AK pattern, is indeed manufacturing, and unless you do one here and there for a freind, without the primary intent of making a profit or income, you will need to be licensed in the manufacture of firearms.... Interesting. I, too, thought that just being a regular FFL would be enough to receive people's Saigas and convert them, and send them back out. (I can't even imagine how bad-ass it would be, to be able to make anything you wanted, like Tom and Tony: "Meh, I think I'm gonna make a machine gun today.") Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 It is considered by the BATF that changing the gun's imported configuration back to the AK pattern, is indeed manufacturing, and unless you do one here and there for a freind, without the primary intent of making a profit or income, you will need to be licensed in the manufacture of firearms.... Interesting. I, too, thought that just being a regular FFL would be enough to receive people's Saigas and convert them, and send them back out. That is how most of the gunsmiths today still work. This letter that has been posted is one of the more recent "oh, we're tired of our previous opinion, here's a new one". No 01 FFL that I know of that does repairs/modifications has gotten additional "manufacturers" licensing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Further, you will have to pay an excise tax and stamp every gun, if you plan to do more than 50 a year (which wouldnt be difficult to achieve in short order, do you really want to call your 49 prior customers to ask for the gun back to stamp and pay a tax on that you didnt collect?) ------------------------------------------------- Also it seems if you do a few requests (less than 49) you avoid the TAX also... Just 'quotin'/sayin... Of course paying taxes would be the least headache... irs/batf ???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Ah...an SOT is a 'permit' to build fun(er) toys. A 07 FFL is a manufacturing license One needs an 07 plus an SOT to build, for example, full auto, short barrel, suppressed toys (or all of the above). Just an 07 lets you built guns that are not restricted under the NFA. Gunsmithing is fun. Running a shop is more fun. Learn to like Ramon noodles Alex Alex, yeh, well Tom has his list of FFLs. Fortunately, him having "all of it" in duplicate, and 35 years in the industry, makes my job a little easier, in that I can just say "yeh, Tom can do that" without so much as a thought. Although it does get confusing... which part of what he does goes with what, at times. living halfway across the friggin country doesnt help either. ANYWAY PEOPLE - this is one of those subjects that comes up from time to time, that is IMPORTANT, and maybe someone can draw up a thread that the staff can pin and close into the "law" section of the forum. There are a lot of smart and honest people here, someone should be able to come up with something. ...it might not be a bad idea, really....if you look at this place as a marketplace as well as a virtual ak gunsmithing school, it makes sense to have some legal matters addressed for the public, where it can be plainly seen.....It all comes down to liability..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Further, you will have to pay an excise tax and stamp every gun, if you plan to do more than 50 a year (which wouldnt be difficult to achieve in short order, do you really want to call your 49 prior customers to ask for the gun back to stamp and pay a tax on that you didnt collect?) ------------------------------------------------- Also it seems if you do a few requests (less than 49) you avoid the TAX also... Just 'quotin'/sayin... Of course paying taxes would be the least headache... irs/batf ???? how are you going to survive on selling 49 conversion jobs? you still need an FFL to charge for them.....the TAXES happen after 49, and apply to ALL jobs, including the first 49.....you would have to do some REALLY high end work to survive on that number.....which you wont get unless you have a seriously good and well known reputation....we have some of the best in the industry among us here, and they didnt get that way overnight.... and by the way, people, that letter there above, because I work for Tom, means that I might be able to look at and help you figure out the problem with your gun, but I CANNOT TOUCH IT to work on it, unless I am in Ohio, with Tom in the room, telling me what to do. This is why I have refused so many inquires to work on people's stuff. And yes, I am saying that outright and truthfully, to cover my own ass..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Jacket 329 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 .I di my own Saiga 12 conversion and two others for very close friends. Hell,I can do it easy I'd go shopping for Liability Insurance first off ............ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John_pro2a 3 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 You just need a dremel and a vice, right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 You just need a dremel and a vice, right? I have both! does that make me a gunsmitagician? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 You just need a dremel and a vice, right? You forgot a big hammer This is why I'll help you convert you gun but I won't convert your gun: Liability Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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