Juggernaut 11,054 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Crazy! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 WTF?!?!? Well, I think most of us around here (forum) have been doing our part to help them turn a profit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 NOOOOOO!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 More good news http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/world/europe/16russia.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 better buy while you can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) More good news http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/world/europe/16russia.html That was back in 2007 but the first post concerns me. Edited September 21, 2009 by Superhawk138 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Nobody panic just yet.. a "petition in bankruptcy" doesn't necessarily mean Izhmash will be boarding up their windows anytime soon. This definitely bears watching, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Shoot! I need to get a wood factory thumb hole .223 to complete my set,..soon,.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raftman 1 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 THIS IS PROBABLY FAKE- DO NOT WORRY. Pravda.ru is NOT a dependable news source. Though bearing the name of the well-known Russian/Soviet state-run newspaper, pravda.ru is not the same thing. The original Pravda was disbanded during the Yeltsin administration, this Pravda simply adopted the name thereafter. It's in fact just a tabloid, full of sensational stories, similar to Weekly World News available here in the USA. They pepper in a few genuine stories for credibility's sake here and there, but it's largely utter fiction. Where's my proof? Look at the Wikipedia article on Izhmash, you'll find the description provided as to what Izhmash is and what they do has been taken word for word and copied into the Pravda.ru article. All Pravda.ru did is sandwich that description between a couple of dubious sentences about filing for bankruptcy. It seems rather silly, no? Can't exactly be dependable journalism, if it has to plagiarize background information from wikipedia. So I wouldn't worry too much, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Seems odd. The company appears to be selling everything it can produce as fast as it can get its products out the door. I'd love to be in that position. Lots of things could be at the root of the bankruptcy filing - Too many contracts in Ruble denominations coupled with rapid currency depreciation, fraud, corruption, mismanagement, tax and benefit rates - who knows? Maybe we'll just have to start producing AK shotguns right here in the good old USA. We already make standard AK parts to replace practically any part of an AK. Producing an entire AK 12 gauge just doesn't seem like it would be that hard. Hell, they pound them out with sticks and rocks in Waziristan WS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Im pretty sure that it means the yearly reviewal is due.....prolly just a price hike again.....the factory has to get, what it has to get, I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 OK, this is our chance. We pool our money and do a buy out! Who's with me? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 THIS IS PROBABLY FAKE- DO NOT WORRY. Pravda.ru is NOT a dependable news source. Though bearing the name of the well-known Russian/Soviet state-run newspaper, pravda.ru is not the same thing. The original Pravda was disbanded during the Yeltsin administration, this Pravda simply adopted the name thereafter. It's in fact just a tabloid, full of sensational stories, similar to Weekly World News available here in the USA. They pepper in a few genuine stories for credibility's sake here and there, but it's largely utter fiction. Where's my proof? Look at the Wikipedia article on Izhmash, you'll find the description provided as to what Izhmash is and what they do has been taken word for word and copied into the Pravda.ru article. All Pravda.ru did is sandwich that description between a couple of dubious sentences about filing for bankruptcy. It seems rather silly, no? Can't exactly be dependable journalism, if it has to plagiarize background information from wikipedia. So I wouldn't worry too much, No it is NOT FAKE. http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=Izhmash Lots of legit news sources picking this story up. Likely they will oporate under what ever restructuring occurs. I doubt Russia would let this factory fail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snoofer 138 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 OK, this is our chance. We pool our money and do a buy out! Who's with me? i'm in Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longhorn 81 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 OK, this is our chance. We pool our money and do a buy out! Who's with me? LET'S ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 This does explain some things...................... Like the amount of warranty issues coming thru............. and the "No-comprede english" I'm getting on the phone calls to Izhmash....... Well, Hell.........maybe if they ask nice obama can just print them up another batch of Yankee Dollars and send them over a pallet or two .................it's not like as if it's real money anymore or his money......... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rastamanila 313 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 OK, this is our chance. We pool our money and do a buy out! Who's with me? I'm in....Philippine Investor... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Okay, I'm in on the Saiga forum buy out of Izhmash. However, for my investment in the bail out, I mean buy out, I want to be Corporate Counsel and assistant weapons tester. I will require an unlimited budget for travel, entertainment, lobbying, bribes, ammo and targets. Also, I think I will need several college age female interns to assist me in thoroughly completing my new duties. WJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 they should find the biggest baddest jewish attorney in manhatten and sick them on the other factories that dont have licensing contracts with them. Hell, all they need to do is remind Israel that they had a HUGE hand in wiping the nazis out. This was one of the main places the guns came from to do that. I know it sounds like a bad joke, but Im being serious here. Maybe its time for them to pull in the debts owed to the factory socially.... In the case of the saiga, at least we are buying what we CAN from the factory..... I guess I have to redouble my focus on how to sell more of these puppies....I think Im going to take a serious look at publically debunking the rumors about these guns being "inaccurate range toys" Ill have to ring a few phones after I get back from my day job today, and see if I can get the ball rolling on something I have been tossing around for a while now, that just dont have the funds to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 I'm sure we can ask some of our members in Russia to follow up on this and a call to Mr. Woods at RAAC probably would not be a bad idea. RAAC has even more at stake here as this is their business. I really doubt Izhmash will be allowed by Moscow to close as Izhmash is a major supplier the Russian armed forces with firearms. I guess nobody is really buying their cars after all!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 I spoke with Clyde last week, actually. They are looking to ramp up marketing, due to the sluggish market we have right now in the US. EVERYONE has seen a pretty sizeable slow-down in product movement across the board. The economy sucks, and people just dont have the disposable income right now to spend. I think the biggest thing is to make more people aware of this gun, and prove its viability in the competition, hunting, and casual shooting areas of the gun community. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 One thing I'm willing to bet on.......................the prices are not coming down. If anything I can see the supply dropping and prices rising again. The Russians may be learning about the free market slowly. But after the last lesson of supply and demand on the S-12s, they have learned something. And on that note the current $666 special will end the end of this month...No matter what happens I have enough guns on hand to supply existing orders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sovbez 11 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 The worker from IzhMash, who is the member of the www.talk.guns.ru forum, said that for the last several month they had been working 3 days a week, as they had little orders. They get very little money for their job, so qualified workers left the plant long ago. New manager of the plant made nothing to improve the situation, but bought new cars for himself. IzhMash lost the market. People in Russia already do not want to buy anything from Izhmash because of poor quality and high prices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) they should find the biggest baddest jewish attorney in manhatten and sick them on the other factories that dont have licensing contracts with them. Hell, all they need to do is remind Israel that they had a HUGE hand in wiping the nazis out. Aside from the offense nature of the first half of that statement the second half shows a server lack of knowledge concerning the history of Jews in Russia. Try googling "pogrom" that should at least get you started. Further the red army killed its fair share of Jews. Maybe we'll just have to start producing AK shotguns right here in the good old USA. We already make standard AK parts to replace practically any part of an AK. Producing an entire AK 12 gauge just doesn't seem like it would be that hard. The argument has always been that one could not turn a profit on a domestically produced AK design. Given the traditionally low prices of AK platform weapons this was probably true. However, I think a domestically produced version of the S12 might be viable. Un-converted ones sell for $550 now. Even a fairly basic conversion will push it over $700. And as many here can attest, one can easily spend significantly more than that. The factory quality of the current $550 saiga is wanting. A domestic S12 that came with some of the goodies that we add on our own would probably be competitively priced with the buying a Russian gun and and converting it. The domestic guns would likely be of much higher quality. I look at what I have invested in my S12 versus what I paid for my browning autoloaders and its kind of nuts given the quality difference in each. Don't get me wrong I LOVE my S12 and enjoy working on my various saigas, but still. The real issue would be market share. How big is the potential market of a S12 type shotgun. I have seen more and more over the years as awareness and interest grows in this shotgun. I also believe that the after market support provided by many of the vendors here has increased the interest in and desirability of these guns. That said it might not make financial sense for a major manufacturer to tool up and build them. Particularly if they are turning more of a profit producing cheaper pump guns. It would be interesting to know the volume of S12 sales. A domestic S12 could be vary interesting, particularly if they did it right. Edited September 22, 2009 by Zambidis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 From communication with Clyde Woods, RAAC: I knew that the factory was having some problems with money. I did not know they were close to bankruptcy. We are business as usual here with products in inventory and also products ready to be shipped from Russia as needed. First time we have ever been in a position where we had Saiga's in stock or close. We hope the economy gets better to let us expand our market for the Saigas. Also some new products are coming soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VanKiller 322 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 I guess someone needs to give Clyde a lesson in marketing ........How are we going to get a good wave of "Panic Buying going" if he tells people things are OK................ Glad it's still business as usual................... From communication with Clyde Woods, RAAC: I knew that the factory was having some problems with money. I did not know they were close to bankruptcy. We are business as usual here with products in inventory and also products ready to be shipped from Russia as needed. First time we have ever been in a position where we had Saiga's in stock or close. We hope the economy gets better to let us expand our market for the Saigas. Also some new products are coming soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 hey... if I need to delete a few post.... just let me know!!! LOL!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tover26 18 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Debt does horrible things to any business. Izmash could be making money hand over fist, but debtors usually claim priority on repayment over supply chain, wages, and everything else. At a certain point, debt trumps shareholders... which is what happened in my company where we are today a company powered by who holds the most debt. As long as they're making money BEFORE debt repayments, I'd bet that someone restructures the factory and things'll continue. The problem might arise when some bean counter starts looking at supply chain and goes, "Hey, if we drop this material from quality X at price X to quality Y at a lower price..." They think they can produce the same product with less expense. These things are fun though... in a different universe, I'd go and offer to buy exclusive production rights in the USA and license the Saiga. RAAC and Cadiz - you guys looking for the silver lining? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 they should find the biggest baddest jewish attorney in manhatten and sick them on the other factories that dont have licensing contracts with them. Hell, all they need to do is remind Israel that they had a HUGE hand in wiping the nazis out. Aside from the offense nature of the first half of that statement the second half shows a server lack of knowledge concerning the history of Jews in Russia. Try googling "pogrom" that should at least get you started. Further the red army killed its fair share of Jews. Yeah it was kind of a racist/asshat comment. So from what I gathered the Molot factory (Izhmash owned) is shut down completely and their primary factory in Izhevsk is only producing 2 days a week. Since Russia bailed out other arms makers (like Sukhoi)I have no doubt they will never allow Izhmash to end production for good. I really hope that small orders like the ones RAA and Arsenal has are honored before any restructuring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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