whats the best polymer frame pistol?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Glock

[Ragnar 10]

5) 5.7 defeats body armor

 

I'm surprised nobody has addressed this yet. There is no such thing as an armor piercing gun or caliber. The Five seveN becomes an AP weapon when loaded with military SS190 AP rounds. Have fun getting your hands on those, but even if you could, they are designed for piercing PASGT armor. Kevlar will still stop these rounds.

 

True, guns rarely kill people, it is usually the bullet.

 

The SS190 AP ball FMJ is designated as Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition, designed to penetrate body armor. Its sale to civilians is restricted and BATF mandates that FN stores the ammunition in a bonded warehouse and releases only upon sale to law-enforcement or military purchase order. The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core. It is interesting to note that the SS109 FMJ bullet is essentially of the same design, except it uses a lead core with a steel penetrator. The SS109 is frequently found in civilian-legal M855 loads sold as surplus or contract-overrun ammunition. FN Herstal has stated that the SS190 round will easily penetrate protections that stop normal pistol rounds, but will not penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO round such as Level IIIA armor. The SS190 has demonstrated varying penetration depths of about 10 to 13 inches in gelatin testing by various agencies. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy forensics laboratory tested SS190 fired out of a P90 into 10% ordnance gelatin, 10% gelatin covered with heavy clothing, and 10% gelatin covered with Level II soft armor. The average penetration depth in all test events was approximately 10.4 inches; the temporal wound cavity did not exceed 3.75 inches. Testing of the P90 done by Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS showed an average of 12 inches penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. Houston, TX SWAT has also done testing with similar results. Many have asserted that these figures are not deep enough, as the current FBI minimum penetration depth is 12 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin. The standard maintained by ATF is that the round is designed to fire from a pistol and civilian sales would be contrary to existing bans on armor piercing handgun ammunition.

 

Specifications:

Function: service ball round

Bullet Type: FMJ

Tip Color: none

Weight of Projectile: 31 gr.

Muzzle Velocity: 2133 fps

Muzzle Energy: 313 ft-lbs

 

For non-duty use, the 5.7X28 FN SS192 Hollow Point Ammo is widely available today (click link below), eventhough this ammo had been banned from importation because of its penetrating abilities, it has recently been taken off of the restricted list and is again available for purchase:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/2000rds-57-fn-ss192-hollow-point-ammo/cName/pistol-ammo-fn-57

 

At 2,000 FPS this copper-jacketed 28-grain hollow point with an aluminum core is still a very hot load. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[james peek 14]

i think i'm going to have to buy two of each

[james peek 14]

if i only could.

thanks again for all the insight and info. i know it was not all for me but still good stuff to think about.

[BronCobraJet 80]

Steyr (in 9mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig):

Advantage: Basically, it's a better Glock than Glock. Traditionally rifled barrel is safe to use with cast bullets. Simplest field stripping procedure of any pistol. Pretty darn accurate. The stock trapezoid sights are fast and accurate.

Disadvantage: Few people in the US have heard of them. Trapezoid sights are weird, and not night sights. Factory mags are a little expensive, but Browning High Power mags can easily be modded to work.

 

That is really wacky how your are field stripping a Styer on a GLOCK rubber mat. lol.

[Azrial 1,091]

I am sure you excelled at cleaning all those Glocks. However, all I read here is more obvious rhetoric and what sounds like ancient history (the 80's had great music, too), while continuing to ignore features and benefits of the more modern firearm in question. Did you not read my first reply to you? Thank you for making my counter-points so clearly, Sir. Maybe you simply do not understand what rhetoric is? Try Google, or listen to an Obama speech for starters.

 

I would expect better arguments based on your signature's disclaimer. Unfortunately, you have now been weighed, measured, and found wanting, Azrial.

I understand that you are little more then a child, standing here desperately babbling, trying to talk like a man. You silence on the subject of your qualifications makes the truth pretty plain. You have no qualifications or experience, you are simply fascinated with your own opinion.

 

The 5.7x28 is an interesting little round, but really has little more more power then a 9x19. The rounds available to civilians do not exhibit the scary ballistic vest penetration that you impotently brag about. A .223 M4 carbine with a 10" to 14" barrel with deliver a very similar projectile at higher velocity, and we all know very well what its terminal performance is like. You would have us believe that it is some how more potent from a 5" barrel with the shorter 28mm case driving it? The truth is there in no magic to it, is is just another fast .22 pistol. Big deal.

 

I would say that it pretty safe to assume that everything you have to say is simply parroted bullshit, and most of that you apparently don't understand. If you ever really want to find out how you measure up and happen to be in my neck of the woods, let me know. For an antique I still seem to be in my prime, you are of course welcome to prove me wrong.

 

I have to hit the sack, I have a 50 mile training ride in the morning. Nite all!

[Azrial 1,091]

 

....The SS190 AP ball FMJ is designated as Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition, designed to penetrate body armor. Its sale to civilians is restricted and BATF mandates that FN blah, blah, blah.

 

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy forensics laboratory tested SS190 fired out of a P90 into 10% ordnance gelatin,

 

By the way, the next time you plagiarize Wikipedia and other Internet sources to make a point, you really should give them credit instead of trying to sound like you originated this. Almost every line of your little spiel is stolen from an Internet source. All that folks need to do to prove this is take your little discourse apart and Google it.

 

Just another pretentious liar.

[Twinsen 86]

The 5.7x28 is an interesting little round, but really has little more more power then a 9x19.

 

Although the effect on target is lesser than 9x19. Frontal area, folks. We knew it 100 years ago. At some point we forgot it.

[Ragnar 10]

The 5.7x28 is an interesting little round, but really has little more more power then a 9x19.

 

Although the effect on target is lesser than 9x19. Frontal area, folks. We knew it 100 years ago. At some point we forgot it.

 

What I have been taught, and believe, is that winning a pistol fight seems to be mostly about two things: shot placement, per the FBI's Miami Shootout report http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm ; and the fact that action beats reaction, i.e., awareness, preparedness, and mindset.

 

Thus, having tried many handguns, unfortunately not the Styer yet, and having carried an H&K USP every day for more than five years, I now either carry a Rohrbaugh, the FN, or both. The Rohrbaugh because of its best-in-class concealability, reliability, and frontal area (9mm vs 380). The FiveseveN because I have personally been able to consistently shoot better groups out of it versus any other pistol, and it carries a lot of BBs, 20, or 30 in the extended mags (which actually work very well even though the ones I have come from, dare I say, ProMag, gasp!).

 

I also understand and agree with the frontal area argument, which is why I have a 12 round mag of slugs clamped on to a 12 round mag of 00 that is locked in the well of my S-12. Saiga wins, but is not always preferable or available.

 

I really do enjoy these "best" threads. Thanks to whomever threw the first grenade.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The 5.7x28 is an interesting little round, but really has little more more power then a 9x19.

 

Although the effect on target is lesser than 9x19. Frontal area, folks. We knew it 100 years ago. At some point we forgot it.

 

Odd how that seems to work, ain't it? I was gonna throw more gas on the fire but nahh.. it's burnin fine on its own.

 

Edited October 16, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Twinsen 86]

Yeah man, when it comes to frontal area, you gotta be talking 12ga. Buckshot? YEAH SURE! Slugs? YEAHHH THAT TOO!

[Ragnar 10]

Yeah man, when it comes to frontal area, you gotta be talking 12ga. Buckshot? YEAH SURE! Slugs? YEAHHH THAT TOO!

 

Speaking of slugs...

 

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-gauge-federal-le-tactical-full-power-hydrashok-slug/cName/12-gauge-slug

 

Get 'em while they're there.

[Paulyski 2,227]

My personnel choice is the XD-45. The best advice would be to go shoot them for yourself. The Glock's finger notches are too small for my hand. Other than that it is a great gun. I really enjoy them both.

 

Wow.. you're one of the only people I've ever heard complain that Glock's grip was too small for your hands, (most complain that it's too large, esp the Glock .45 ACP models). You must have some real sasquatch paws on ya!

 

I must agree about the finger notches point.

They did not feel right to me either.

 

That is why I chose a 2nd gen.

 

I do not miss the rail @ the bottom because my G-17 is a concealed piece.

Other than a laser, if you are dressing up a pistol that is for carry, I feel that your just building a toy. (Unless you have immediate intent on using it. Then you are a cop, or murder.) As for home defense, the last thing you want to do in the middle of the night is to screw up your night vision with a flashlight.

Really, Who walks around with a pistol with a flashlight down their pants?

The Glocks can get this though!

The guide rod Laser!

Top that for practicality!

 

There are a lot of folks here that will recommend their personal polymer framed pistol "as good" or even better then the Glock. Well who knows, some day the Glock design is sure to be surpassed!

 

But keep in mind that no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock. So on one hand, you have solid proof through thousands of reports, and on the other some guy's rock solid faith in his own opinion based largely on the fact that he has one and it has worked pretty good...

 

"...no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock."

 

Please, Sir, what is your source? Or is this coming from just some guy? Maybe no other polymer, but for all pistols, as you stated, then I think that some makers in Germany would have something to say about that, and so would the 1911 folks here in the USA.....

 

PS: I currently own three FiveseveNs, not one.

 

I have had 763 Glocks under my care at one point and was one of the members of a three person committee that tested and compared them against other pistols for selection as our carry pistol. As a part of our study we reviewed the previous studies from many other agencies. This combined data was accumulated at great expense in terms of man hours and money. Once the pistol was selected we kept detailed logs of usage as well as maintenance and repairs. In short we were very satisfied with the Glock.

 

I am a professional that has carryed a firearm in the line of duty for over two decades in the US and abroad. As part of my duty I have been assigned to several tactical units and task forces. I was responsible for detirmining the team loadout on several of these.

 

Now who the hell did you say you were again? What experience and training did you say that you have? Where have you carried a firearm in harm's way?

 

Based on the answers to these three questions I will decide what value to put on what you and your frat buddies think about pistols. I must admit that your opinion already has diminished value in my eyes based on your juvenile babble that brave men fight without body armor. This is not Halo3, you only get one life in the real world.

I would seriously respect Azrial's advice. I don't know if he was in on the FBI study to find the optimum gun and round, but I assure you, there has been many thousands of dollars and many hours of real world testing to determine the optimum pistol. The 10mm didn't just arrive by accident. And I have one of the early original advertising ads put out by Glock, showing it being dropped from specific heights without misfiring (out of a helicopter), showing it being immersed in muddy water without misfiring, showing it being froze in a solid block of ice, being broke out and not misfiring, and there have been magazine articles where they had dissasembled 300 Glocks and dumped them in a pile and reassembled the guns from parts from other guns, (they had no way of telling what parts were from what gun) and the all performed flawlessly. The Glock, IMHO, is one of the finest, simplest firearms ever invented. There are even videos on YouTube showing it being fired underwater with no adverse effects. Really, What the hell do you want more out of a firearm?

AUTOMATIC AIMING!!

[gunman1 1,753]

Glocks are great guns, but ill take my xd... You really cant go wrong with either though. I just liked the way the xd held way more than the Glocks so i went with it. I say find a place that will let you rent one of each for a day and see which you like better.

I chose the XD for the same reason, fits my hand better than the Glock

[kdbutler 563]

if i only could.

thanks again for all the insight and info. i know it was not all for me but still good stuff to think about.

 

If you aren't already on info overload, here's an article I read before buying my XD9 that pretty much made me a believer:

 

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

 

Torture tesing began on a random, stock model that already had a round count of 17,500. Testing included freezing it in a block of ice for a week, burying it in dirt, sand, and mud, submerged in water, completely degreased, and run over by a pick-up. To say the results were impressive is an understatement.

 

I know glock guys love their gun, with good reason, but the XD9 is no slouch either. I loved mine while I had it, and I still regret trading it in.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Kevin in Texas

[havok 21]

I got a XD-9 subcompact in 03 when they first came out. The same day I got it, I shot it with my cousin and brother who was the proud owner's of their glocks. We shot a few hundred rds, from my XD and their glocks by the time we was done they both said the XD out preforms their Glocks. Easier to shot and can stay on target better was the comments from them. The very next day, they both pick up a XD at the same time. Once you shoot the XD its hard to set down. My brother traded his glock in the day he got his XD. My cousin held out for about a month and traded in his glock in for a down payment on a Ar-15. So in short we all prefer XD over glocks. We don't have a 1,000 pistol's in are care are test them and track down old info to compare, just shooter preference.

[unclejake 428]

Yeah man, when it comes to frontal area, you gotta be talking 12ga. Buckshot? YEAH SURE! Slugs? YEAHHH THAT TOO!

 

Speaking of slugs...

 

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-gauge-federal-le-tactical-full-power-hydrashok-slug/cName/12-gauge-slug

 

Get 'em while they're there.

Thanks for the heads up, just picked up 50 rounds, these are an awesome looking round! And their prices on most of their other ammo is IMPRESSIVE!