whats the best polymer frame pistol?

[nalioth 405]

The XDM comes with a much better stock trigger, and higher capacity so I suggest the XDM series if you check out the Springfields.

The XDM is aimed at the "race gun" market. "Higher capacity" = more weight for carriage.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Glock

Advantage: Extreme reliability; Best Aftermarket Parts, Upgrades, Replacements; Low price point ~ $499 if you shop around for a base model; they retain value well as there is a large Glock following and torture tests have shown that they last over 100,000 rounds (springs and parts that can wear out cost less than $10 to replace and are easy to find); Mags are cheap and easy to find.

Disadvantage: No external On/Off safety; Set Frame Dimensions with no Adjustable Grips, other than 21SF it is not ambidextrous on slide and mag release

Advantage: No external On/Off safety. The primary safety for every dangerous instrument is between one's ears.

 

XD:

Advantage: Added Grip Safety; easy to find magazines.

Disadvantage: To pull slide back, grip safety must be pressed; Not Ambidextrous on Mag Drop, slide release.

Advantage: Mag release IS ambidextrous. This has been corrected.

 

M&P:

Advantage: 3 interchangable grips

Disadvantage: No external safety besides trigger - New models can have safety and/or magazine safety (won't fire without mag).

Advantage: No external On/Off safety. The primary safety for every dangerous instrument is between one's ears.

 

HK P90:

Advantage: Very ergonomic (best feeling pistol in my hand out of all); Full ambidextrous controls for slide, mag drop and de-cocker.

Disadvantage: Price Point is over $1000. After market parts will be difficult to track down.

WTF is a H&K P90 ?

 

Corrected: It is the P30.

 

Walther P99:

Advantage: Very ergonomic (best feeling pistol in my hand out of all); Full ambidextrous mag release and de-cocker. S&W produces a licensed copy here in the USA.

Disadvantage: None.

 

 

I agree that a safety is a feature that is only as good as the user. I personally hate having an external safety because you can inadvertently have it on when you intend to fire at an aggressor. My finger is my safety on my Glock, but obviously enough XD users don't feel that is enough! Berretta users want even more. Some law enforcement groups require a manual safety (CA Corrections coming to mind).

 

When explaining features to someone just starting out on defensive pistol shooting, a lot prefer to have the external safety because it makes them feel more comfortable because they don't have 50 years of first hand experience behind polymer pistols like the whiz-bang forum members here do.

 

Point being made: Advantages and disadvantages are in the eyes of the user. Someone transitioning from a Kimber 1911 probably is looking for something familiar and that is what I based the analysis on! I would still have someone feel them in their hands because if it isn't comfortable, you won't want to shoot it as much regardless of the features.

 

 

 

NOTE: I have edited the original post to reflect corrections from copy past and my hurry to get to lunch.

Edited October 14, 2009 by BuffetDestroyer

[longhorn 81]

My personnel choice is the XD-45. The best advice would be to go shoot them for yourself. The Glock's finger notches are too small for my hand. Other than that it is a great gun. I really enjoy them both.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

My personnel choice is the XD-45. The best advice would be to go shoot them for yourself. The Glock's finger notches are too small for my hand. Other than that it is a great gun. I really enjoy them both.

 

Wow.. you're one of the only people I've ever heard complain that Glock's grip was too small for your hands, (most complain that it's too large, esp the Glock .45 ACP models). You must have some real sasquatch paws on ya!

 

[Azrial 1,091]

There are a lot of folks here that will recommend their personal polymer framed pistol "as good" or even better then the Glock. Well who knows, some day the Glock design is sure to be surpassed!

 

But keep in mind that no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock. So on one hand, you have solid proof through thousands of reports, and on the other some guy's rock solid faith in his own opinion based largely on the fact that he has one and it has worked pretty good...

 

"...no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock."

 

Please, Sir, what is your source? Or is this coming from just some guy? Maybe no other polymer, but for all pistols, as you stated, then I think that some makers in Germany would have something to say about that, and so would the 1911 folks here in the USA.....

 

PS: I currently own three FiveseveNs, not one.

 

I have had 763 Glocks under my care at one point and was one of the members of a three person committee that tested and compared them against other pistols for selection as our carry pistol. As a part of our study we reviewed the previous studies from many other agencies. This combined data was accumulated at great expense in terms of man hours and money. Once the pistol was selected we kept detailed logs of usage as well as maintenance and repairs. In short we were very satisfied with the Glock.

 

I am a professional that has carryed a firearm in the line of duty for over two decades in the US and abroad. As part of my duty I have been assigned to several tactical units and task forces. I was responsible for detirmining the team loadout on several of these.

 

Now who the hell did you say you were again? What experience and training did you say that you have? Where have you carried a firearm in harm's way?

 

Based on the answers to these three questions I will decide what value to put on what you and your frat buddies think about pistols. I must admit that your opinion already has diminished value in my eyes based on your juvenile babble that brave men fight without body armor. This is not Halo3, you only get one life in the real world.

[Garys4598 1,065]

The Bride prefers the FN FiveseveN, too!

Well.... I'd say it's a good thing that the FN FiveseveN has as little recoil as you indicate. Otherwise.... your 'Bride" moving that firearm just a few more inches to the rear, would see her receiving a bloody nose.

(Of course... I'm exaggerating.... but just a little.)

 

Ummm.... was it you that showed her how to hold a pistol like this and to acquire such a sight picture?

 

[james peek 14]

The XDM comes with a much better stock trigger, and higher capacity so I suggest the XDM series if you check out the Springfields.

The XDM is aimed at the "race gun" market. "Higher capacity" = more weight for carriage.

what does "race gun" market mean. i assume competition.

[hallboss 1]

Wow...Just like has been said a thousand times, GLOCK and XD, I own both and like Azrial I took part in the testing of new firearms with my department and we choose hands down the Glock.

[james peek 14]

good info here. i really appreciate everyone's thought's, experience, and opinions. i'll be studying up for the future.

Edited October 14, 2009 by jrp

[BronCobraJet 80]

There are a lot of folks here that will recommend their personal polymer framed pistol "as good" or even better then the Glock. Well who knows, some day the Glock design is sure to be surpassed!

 

But keep in mind that no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock. So on one hand, you have solid proof through thousands of reports, and on the other some guy's rock solid faith in his own opinion based largely on the fact that he has one and it has worked pretty good...

 

"...no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock."

 

Please, Sir, what is your source? Or is this coming from just some guy? Maybe no other polymer, but for all pistols, as you stated, then I think that some makers in Germany would have something to say about that, and so would the 1911 folks here in the USA.....

 

PS: I currently own three FiveseveNs, not one.

 

I have had 763 Glocks under my care at one point and was one of the members of a three person committee that tested and compared them against other pistols for selection as our carry pistol. As a part of our study we reviewed the previous studies from many other agencies. This combined data was accumulated at great expense in terms of man hours and money. Once the pistol was selected we kept detailed logs of usage as well as maintenance and repairs. In short we were very satisfied with the Glock.

 

I am a professional that has carryed a firearm in the line of duty for over two decades in the US and abroad. As part of my duty I have been assigned to several tactical units and task forces. I was responsible for detirmining the team loadout on several of these.

 

Now who the hell did you say you were again? What experience and training did you say that you have? Where have you carried a firearm in harm's way?

 

Based on the answers to these three questions I will decide what value to put on what you and your frat buddies think about pistols. I must admit that your opinion already has diminished value in my eyes based on your juvenile babble that brave men fight without body armor. This is not Halo3, you only get one life in the real world.

I would seriously respect Azrial's advice. I don't know if he was in on the FBI study to find the optimum gun and round, but I assure you, there has been many thousands of dollars and many hours of real world testing to determine the optimum pistol. The 10mm didn't just arrive by accident. And I have one of the early original advertising ads put out by Glock, showing it being dropped from specific heights without misfiring (out of a helicopter), showing it being immersed in muddy water without misfiring, showing it being froze in a solid block of ice, being broke out and not misfiring, and there have been magazine articles where they had dissasembled 300 Glocks and dumped them in a pile and reassembled the guns from parts from other guns, (they had no way of telling what parts were from what gun) and the all performed flawlessly. The Glock, IMHO, is one of the finest, simplest firearms ever invented. There are even videos on YouTube showing it being fired underwater with no adverse effects. Really, What the hell do you want more out of a firearm?

[nalioth 405]

The XDM comes with a much better stock trigger, and higher capacity so I suggest the XDM series if you check out the Springfields.

The XDM is aimed at the "race gun" market. "Higher capacity" = more weight for carriage.

what does "race gun" market mean. i assume competition.

Race Gun @ wikipedia

 

Yep. A larger "factory capacity" allows for more shots without reloading during some types of competition.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

 

 

I have had 763 Glocks under my care at one point and was one of the members of a three person committee that tested and compared them against other pistols for selection as our carry pistol. As a part of our study we reviewed the previous studies from many other agencies. This combined data was accumulated at great expense in terms of man hours and money. Once the pistol was selected we kept detailed logs of usage as well as maintenance and repairs. In short we were very satisfied with the Glock.

 

I am a professional that has carryed a firearm in the line of duty for over two decades in the US and abroad. As part of my duty I have been assigned to several tactical units and task forces. I was responsible for detirmining the team loadout on several of these.

 

 

I would say that is a pretty strong argument for the Glock! I would 100% agree that it isn't just some mall ninja forum guy touting the praise of Glocks. There are some pretty fantastic torture videos that show what you can put one through and it still keeps ticking. The adoption by the majority of LE across the country shows that it isn't a POS and is very well tested in harm's way. Love 'em or hate 'em, they are reliable and durable!

 

Nothing wrong with the FiveseveN, but it's intended design and purpose is nullified by the lack of civilian available FMJ ammo. It is no more effective than a 9mm JHP from a kinetic energy standpoint (actually less, even out of the rifle). The XDM 9mm holds only 2 rounds less than the FiveseveN and is about $400 cheaper.

 

On that note, if they made a semi-auto that could feed 17 HMR, I would probably buy it because it would be much cheaper to shoot with similar ballistics to the 5.7! And since the FiveseveN only shoots hollowpoints in the U.S., the HMR would be equally effective for critters & defense if they don't limit it to a 10 round mag.

[Gaddis 1,689]

My Dardick and a pocketful of trounds.

 

That way, if I brush up against some chick and she asks me if that's a gun in my pocket or I'm just happy to see her..

[Twinsen 86]

STEYR M-A1 series. Way-better than Glock IMHO.

 

 

I concur.

 

Well, except that Steyrs actually have a solid steel subframe inside the polymer.

 

Wow! That's not only unnecessary, but it increases the weight of the pistol! A clear advantage.

 

Show me a polymer framed pistol that doesn't have a steel backbone, and I'll show you a steaming pile of shit. Polymer covered steel is a pure win. There is no polymer is as tough as steel. Contact points, rails, and frames are going to be steel until some magic happens and a polymer is created that can take a beating or give sufficient strength for firearms.

 

As for great polymer framed pistols, I agree on the 2011 style offerings as being the best. Kahr makes great carry pieces in polymer, easily the best for that application. There are a few others that I consider good, but they all have a steel version that I feel is superior.

 

In case there's anybody out there that hasn't seen my 900 rants about it, I don't like the Glock design and have seen it fail many times. More times than any other firearm brand or model. I recently bought an aftermarket barrel for my Hi Power that was out of spec and jammed up my gun. When I asked a guy at my range for help, he replied that he would go get the "glock tools". They ended up being a "glock hammer" and a "glock rod" for unjamming semi-auto pistols. I didn't say anything until now. Anecdotes are fun. For the record, those tools were not good enough to unjam the thing. What a mess. Sure am glad that gun had a steel frame, or I'd be injured and have some doctors bills. Whoa, Nelly! That anecdote worked on two levels?!

[james peek 14]

STEYR M-A1 series. Way-better than Glock IMHO.

 

 

I concur.

 

Well, except that Steyrs actually have a solid steel subframe inside the polymer.

 

Wow! That's not only unnecessary, but it increases the weight of the pistol! A clear advantage.

 

Show me a polymer framed pistol that doesn't have a steel backbone, and I'll show you a steaming pile of shit. Polymer covered steel is a pure win. There is no polymer is as tough as steel. Contact points, rails, and frames are going to be steel until some magic happens and a polymer is created that can take a beating or give sufficient strength for firearms.

 

As for great polymer framed pistols, I agree on the 2011 style offerings as being the best. Kahr makes great carry pieces in polymer, easily the best for that application. There are a few others that I consider good, but they all have a steel version that I feel is superior.

 

In case there's anybody out there that hasn't seen my 900 rants about it, I don't like the Glock design and have seen it fail many times. More times than any other firearm brand or model. I recently bought an aftermarket barrel for my Hi Power that was out of spec and jammed up my gun. When I asked a guy at my range for help, he replied that he would go get the "glock tools". They ended up being a "glock hammer" and a "glock rod" for unjamming semi-auto pistols. I didn't say anything until now. Anecdotes are fun. For the record, those tools were not good enough to unjam the thing. What a mess. Sure am glad that gun had a steel frame, or I'd be injured and have some doctors bills. Whoa, Nelly! That anecdote worked on two levels?!

from all the positive info about the glock design it's confusing to hear such a flip from your perspective. sounds like maybe a jagermeister special. you said out of spec barrel, well that should not count against the glock... and what did you mean by this "I agree on the 2011 style offerings as being the best".

[Ragnar 10]

The Bride prefers the FN FiveseveN, too!

Well.... I'd say it's a good thing that the FN FiveseveN has as little recoil as you indicate. Otherwise.... your 'Bride" moving that firearm just a few more inches to the rear, would see her receiving a bloody nose.

(Of course... I'm exaggerating.... but just a little.)

 

Ummm.... was it you that showed her how to hold a pistol like this and to acquire such a sight picture?

 

 

Your "critique" shows your lack of modern training and/or knowledge. She squeezes off her first 3-4 rounds on the push, which is why she gets the hits, the first one consistently at .8 seconds. This photo was taken at the beginning of her transistion from the low-ready to sights on, slack up, squeeze, suprise, and second sight.

 

You go ahead and extend your arms out in front of you at CQD (where the bad guy can disarm you) before you start your squeeze. She will have ventilated your alpha zone and probably bravo before you even have a chance to start your trigger pull.

 

Site picture? The Bride's is looking rock solid to me:

 

Get some instruction. Hopefully, for your sake, before you get some experience.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[Ragnar 10]

There are a lot of folks here that will recommend their personal polymer framed pistol "as good" or even better then the Glock. Well who knows, some day the Glock design is sure to be surpassed!

 

But keep in mind that no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock. So on one hand, you have solid proof through thousands of reports, and on the other some guy's rock solid faith in his own opinion based largely on the fact that he has one and it has worked pretty good...

 

"...no other pistol is as proven through adoption and hard usage by the military and the law enforcement as the Glock."

 

Please, Sir, what is your source? Or is this coming from just some guy? Maybe no other polymer, but for all pistols, as you stated, then I think that some makers in Germany would have something to say about that, and so would the 1911 folks here in the USA.....

 

PS: I currently own three FiveseveNs, not one.

 

I have had 763 Glocks under my care at one point and was one of the members of a three person committee that tested and compared them against other pistols for selection as our carry pistol. As a part of our study we reviewed the previous studies from many other agencies. This combined data was accumulated at great expense in terms of man hours and money. Once the pistol was selected we kept detailed logs of usage as well as maintenance and repairs. In short we were very satisfied with the Glock.

 

I am a professional that has carryed a firearm in the line of duty for over two decades in the US and abroad. As part of my duty I have been assigned to several tactical units and task forces. I was responsible for detirmining the team loadout on several of these.

 

Now who the hell did you say you were again? What experience and training did you say that you have? Where have you carried a firearm in harm's way?

 

Based on the answers to these three questions I will decide what value to put on what you and your frat buddies think about pistols. I must admit that your opinion already has diminished value in my eyes based on your juvenile babble that brave men fight without body armor. This is not Halo3, you only get one life in the real world.

 

I am sure you excelled at cleaning all those Glocks. However, all I read here is more obvious rhetoric and what sounds like ancient history (the 80's had great music, too), while continuing to ignore features and benefits of the more modern firearm in question. Did you not read my first reply to you? Thank you for making my counter-points so clearly, Sir. Maybe you simply do not understand what rhetoric is? Try Google, or listen to an Obama speech for starters.

 

I would expect better arguments based on your signature's disclaimer. Unfortunatly, you have now been weighed, measured, and found wanting, Azrial.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[Garys4598 1,065]

Your "critique" shows your lack of modern training and/or knowledge. She squeezes off her first 3-4 rounds on the push, which is why she gets the hits, and does it in under a second. This photo was taken at the beginning of her transistion from the low-ready to sights on, slack up, squeeze, suprise, and second sight.

 

You go ahead and extend your arms out in front of you at CQB (where I can disarm you) before you start your squeeze. She will have ventilated your alpha zone and probably bravo before you even have a chance to start your trigger pull.

 

Site picture? The Bride's is looking rock solid to me:

 

Get some instruction.

Sure...... Right.....

 

 

Well, I'm somewhat relieved to know that the two of you at the very least seem to understand which end of the firearm the bullet comes out of.

 

.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Gary

[Ragnar 10]

Sure...... Right.....

 

 

Well, I'm somewhat relieved to know that the two of you at the very least seem to understand which end of the firearm the bullet comes out of.

 

.

 

Amen, brother, so am I.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

STEYR M-A1 series. Way-better than Glock IMHO.

 

 

I concur.

 

Well, except that Steyrs actually have a solid steel subframe inside the polymer.

 

Wow! That's not only unnecessary, but it increases the weight of the pistol! A clear advantage.

 

Show me a polymer framed pistol that doesn't have a steel backbone, and I'll show you a steaming pile of shit. Polymer covered steel is a pure win. There is no polymer is as tough as steel. Contact points, rails, and frames are going to be steel until some magic happens and a polymer is created that can take a beating or give sufficient strength for firearms...

 

I think we're mixing up our terminology here.. or perhaps I misunderstood the point about the Steyr. Of course any pistol that has a primarily polymer frame is going to have steel contact points, rails, parts of the frame, etc. I thought aresv was saying that Steyr pistols have some additional steel cores in parts that, on a Glock, are pure polymer.. and my response was to that, i.e. that's unnecessary.

 

Whatever. At this point I think I've made my opinion pretty clear. Simply put: Glocks give you more proven reliability, (I know you disagree here, but most peoples' experiences back this up), toughness, longevity, and value for the money than any other poly frame pistola.

[scarbrough68289 76]

Seems the majority prefer Glocks. I looked at them and may still consider a subcompact but didn't care for how they felt. I choose a PX4 9mm and like it alot. I'm leaning towards getting a FN45 or the PX4 45 Special Duty as my next pistol, along with possibly a 1911 of some sorts. Trying to find a dealer that has the Para Double Stack to see how big the grips are before buying.

[Twinsen 86]

from all the positive info about the glock design it's confusing to hear such a flip from your perspective. sounds like maybe a jagermeister special. you said out of spec barrel, well that should not count against the glock... and what did you mean by this "I agree on the 2011 style offerings as being the best".

 

The out of spec barrel was for my Browning Hi-Power, not a Glock. I don't own a Glock. If I had been using a Glock, my right hand would be in a cast. Instead, I had a jammed gun with a busted slide and two fully functioning hands. All that got to me was a very hard recoil stroke and a busted gun. The tools were referred to as Glock tools, because those are the only guns that jam constantly. Last I checked, every single repeat shooter has stopped using a Glock in pin shooting competition at my range. New guys show up and we get to see it each week. It still happens every single time that I see a Glock. I've still never seen a flawless one in person or even on video. No, I don't want anybody to go to the range and film an attempt at a mag dump over and over until they get a cut of a Glock not jamming for an entire 15 rounds straight.

 

As for 2011 pistols, they're polymer 1911s. And that's why they're the best. I have a Hi-Power, and it jamming up sucked because the barrel bushing is integral with the slide, so clearing that jam required a lot of time a dissasembly of the extractor and a big hammer instead of just a wrench. I went to the pistol closest to the 1911 in design and immediately realized I had made a mistake. One day I'll get a 9mm 1911 and be done with it.

 

P.S. I cannot stand by Springfield 1911's or Kimber ones, I have seen too many new ones fail on people. Shit, even Kimber bolt actions jam and double feed and such. An unreliable bolt action... can you imagine?

[Vultite 57]

M&P series from smith&wesson, OPT for the optional trigger job from the performance center though (stock trigger pull is TERRIBLE) but the gun is great. Controls can be swapped from one side to the other for lefties, changable palm swells, always shoots (even the hot stuff), smith has a GREAT support staff (not like your going to need it)

[Brair 5]

I used to be a glock hater. The grip just felt wrong in my hands. A friend of mine recently found out about the SF (small frame) models of glock and he was also a hater. The SF really changed the feel of the pistol. He got one and I tried it. Well we are both converted now. They tweeked the sights just a little also since the last time I shot one.

 

Glock

It has been proven time and time again to work. You can get a lot of stuff cheap for it compared to other guns. Hard to go wrong. If the full size does not feel right check the SF. Compact models will take the same mags as the bigger ones.

 

XD and XDm.

Not been around as long as the glock so does not have the track record. However they do have a good one. The grip angle is more like the 1911 so that might be more familiar in your hand if you have shot a 1911 a lot. I like the backstrap safety. Assuming you are not a cop or doing open carry out in the field I would think you want something concealable. Call it paranoia but I just like the extra safety on the xd and xdm. When you shoot them you don't even notice.

 

 

I don't think you can go wrong with the FN either since they make good weapons. However just throwing this out there. Glocks and spring fields are much more common so you can get accessories much easier. The 5.7 round costs. 45-50 cents a round adds up fast and good luck getting it at times. It was about a buck a round not that long ago.

[aresv 49]

I think we're mixing up our terminology here.. or perhaps I misunderstood the point about the Steyr. Of course any pistol that has a primarily polymer frame is going to have steel contact points, rails, parts of the frame, etc. I thought aresv was saying that Steyr pistols have some additional steel cores in parts that, on a Glock, are pure polymer.. and my response was to that, i.e. that's unnecessary.

 

Whatever. At this point I think I've made my opinion pretty clear. Simply put: Glocks give you more proven reliability, (I know you disagree here, but most peoples' experiences back this up), toughness, longevity, and value for the money than any other poly frame pistola.

 

Surprisingly I think we agree, too. I think Glocks have a good track record and proven reliability. They're very popular, easy to work on, and easy to get parts for. Many people are familiar with them.

 

The Steyr's steel subframe ties together the rear frame rails, trigger assembly and front frame rails. This part also carries the pivot points for the takedown lever and slide release. The subframe lets the pistol SAVE weight and stay slimmer than if the designers had used a chunky block of plastic to achieve sufficient strength and rigidity

 

The Steyr still has an all-polymer magwell/grip, polymer accessory dovetail, and even a polymer guide rod. Unlike some pistols, however, Steyrs have steel sights.... but Steyrs do have an authentic Austrian tenifer finish.

 

Furthermore, the Steyr M and S series pistols were designed primarily as a .40 S&W platform. The 9mm version is identical except for a lighter slide and different barrel. The .40 Steyr has a fully supported chamber. It was designed properly starting from square one, rather than hastily modding an existing 9mm pistol.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Wow, I must be in a different dimension than people on this forum.

 

My AR's don't jam every time I look at them (I own 3 and have owned 8 in different calibers), nor do my Glocks (I own 4).

 

In fact, the only time I have seen either jam is with out of spec reloads or too much crap hanging on it (flashlight and top railed tubular dot sight on a Glock). I'm either lucky or lying with all the 10's of millions of other conspirators.

 

I owned a Steyr M40 and it worked fine, was not heavy, and was reliable, but I hated the grip angle and I sold it. My buddy hates 40's, but loved the grip angle on it. Everyone's hands are different. I took a loss of about $200 because CDNN had them for around $300 for the longest time (bought it for over $400 and sold it for $225).

 

I still have my 30-06 ProHunter and it is a very nice rifle. However I had to send the first one back to the factory because it bulged the cases at the base (six different factory loads were tried) and couldn't shoot better than 1.25" at 100 yards with premium and match ammo. They sent me a brand new one that shoots .6" groups at 100 yards.

Edited October 15, 2009 by BuffetDestroyer

[Ragnar 10]

Gary:

 

Although it would make me proud, I can not claim to have taught The Bride to shoot. However, I see you are in Washington State. The most excellent instructor that is responsible for really teaching The Bride to shoot, Brian Hoffner in Houston, just taught more than 80 LE instructors at the Washington State Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Association this past August at the Yakima Army Training Center. If you ever get a chance to take one or several of his classes, do so. He is an excellent instructor, especially in tactical shotgun, which is a nice way for me to transition out of this pistol thread (too hot for me), and back to Saiga 12s.

 

Cheers!

Edited October 15, 2009 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[Garys4598 1,065]

Gary:

 

Although it would make me proud, I can not claim to have taught The Bride to shoot. However, I see you are in Washington State. The most excellent instructor that is responsible for really teaching The Bride to shoot, Brian Hoffner in Houston, just taught more than 80 LE instructors at the Washington State Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Association this past August at the Yakima Army Training Center. If you ever get a chance to take one or several of his classes, do so. He is an excellent instructor, especially in tactical shotgun, which is a nice way for me to transition out of this pistol thread (too hot for me), and back to Saiga 12s.

 

Cheers!

Thank you! If I ever receive the opportunity, I absolutely will do that.

 

Cheers to you as well!

[janusthephoenix 24]

5) 5.7 defeats body armor

 

I'm surprised nobody has addressed this yet. There is no such thing as an armor piercing gun or caliber. The Five seveN becomes an AP weapon when loaded with military SS190 AP rounds. Have fun getting your hands on those, but even if you could, they are designed for piercing PASGT armor. Kevlar will still stop these rounds.

[kdbutler 563]

The Glock is a good gun, I prefer the standard XD series, they just fit my hand better; I also like the Walther P99.

 

The which handgun question has been asked a thousand times, you know the good brands, just get what fits you best

+1

 

The XD9 was my first handgun, and it has a special place in my heart. Comparing it to the G19, the XD9 points better, and I'm much better in the accuracy department with it. The grip angle, which is closer to the 1911 than a Glock's was the big seller for me.

 

How a polymer handgun points, when compared to other systems the operator has used (say a 1911), may outweigh the reasons why others may like a particular piece.

 

Get what you can shoot, and shoot it well. Just my .02.