Do it yourself SBR

[mgconnor13 206]

Any one have info on the PWS CQB-30? I'm probably going to go with the Bulgarian four piece flash hider. I want to get as close to a krink as I can on a very limited budget (how's all your money disappear as soon as you get married? ) Still I would be interested in seeing how a AK would look with the PWS on the front. Been hunting for a Draco, found a few around town but they where all over priced.

 

I'm still debating how to attach the stock. Is the back plate thick enough that I could just drill it and bolt on an ACE folder or something similar?

[nalioth 405]

I'm still debating how to attach the stock. Is the back plate thick enough that I could just drill it and bolt on an ACE folder or something similar?

The OP closely mirrored a thread over at another forum.

 

Did you miss post #5 in this thread? It has the answers to your question (with pix).

[getitat 609]

Hello, nalioth

 

Have I mentioned (lately) that you are a veritible wealth of information?

 

Appreciate your presence and insight, Sir!

 

Respectfully,

guido

[getitat 609]

Hello

If I were to follow Nalioth's suggestion (as outlined above)and weld a Tromix buttstock plate to the rear of my AK pistol receiver while I was waiting for my Form 1 to clear, would I be in any sort of violation?

It seems to be no different than having a handguard with a bottom rail attached (which COULD be used to mount a forward grip...) although I could also see that the stock adapter plate would be a bit more "specific use" than a bottom rail might be.

Just wanted to get a jump on welding/recoating if it wouldn't land me in the klink.

 

TIA for any insights....

guido

[nalioth 405]

Hello

If I were to follow Nalioth's suggestion (as outlined above)and weld a Tromix buttstock plate to the rear of my AK pistol receiver while I was waiting for my Form 1 to clear, would I be in any sort of violation?

It seems to be no different than having a handguard with a bottom rail attached (which COULD be used to mount a forward grip...) although I could also see that the stock adapter plate would be a bit more "specific use" than a bottom rail might be.

Just wanted to get a jump on welding/recoating if it wouldn't land me in the klink.

 

TIA for any insights....

guido

Two opinions:

 

One: I'd say "go for it", but only if you don't have ANY STOCK OF ANY TYPE that will fit the attachment points. The law doesn't specify a crime has occurred until an actual stock is attached to a sub-16" (or 18" for shotguns) barreled untaxed firearm. However, we all know about the ol' bugaboo of "intent".

 

Two: Wait for your form to come back. If you feel like working on it, I'd say go ahead and pull the existing trunnion and install the fixed stock trunnion, cut that trunnion even (as required for the tromix plate install) and then weld up the holes the original trunnion left. If you've got it ready to weld the Tromix plate on, it doesn't take long to weld that.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Can't nail you with constructive intent if you happen to have a long gun in the house that uses the same buttstock. Just as if you have an AR pistol and an AR rifle, for example, you can have any length upper and whatever buttstocks you want in the house, so long as they aren't combined in an illegal fashion. That being said, I wouldn't do it. Just wait on the form one, then make the weapon ready to accept a buttstock once your form comes back. What's a few minutes welding compared to threeish months waiting, or worse yet, ten years in prison on a stupid technicality?

[MT Predator 2,294]

I disagree. A plate designed to bolt on a buttstock welded on an AK pistol is intent in my opinion. Put in your paperwork, buy your parts to convert, and wait. Otherwise, you can get caught with the welded on addition and be waiting longer for other things like getting out of prison.

[mgconnor13 206]

having worked for the federal government I've come to realize that government is full of self-righteous, self declared champions of goodness that would love to through you in the slammer till kingdom come just because. Just wait for your paper work and don't worry about anything, gives you time to plan and gather parts and make up your mind about what exactly you want to build. As far as I'm concerned ATF agents = and should be avoided like the plague.

 

"intent" is pretty vague. They can claim you "intend" to do a lot of things with out any proof. Play everything as legit as possible and don't draw attention. I know it sucks to wait for the paperwork to come back but your better off just waiting. Get your receiver engraved and collect you needed parts and just wait till that form comes back before you start working. Little boredom at home is better then a lot of boredom at club fed.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Rusty truck

[MT Predator 2,294]

I am in this process as well with a Draco. Before I get too far, who knows the real deal regarding SBRs made from pistols and the fact they have to be 922R compliant? I have read tons of info on the net about it, some armchair lawyers interpreting ATF Rulings say NFA does not need to be compliant as they are not "Sporting" weapons. Other folks say the ATF changed their stance on it and pistols converted to SBRs have to meet the parts count.

[corbin 621]

A lot of good info in this thread (and the other one Nalioth gave).

 

MI doesn't currently allow for SBRs (Damn it!), but when/if they do, I'm hoping to already have a plan in place for what I want to do. Currently my Draco has an Ultimak and an Aimpoint T-1 microdot. It co-witnesses:

 

 

The rear plate was drilled and threaded for a single point sling attachment. I added a washer and a nut on the inside as well.

 

Some ideas I had were to install a Bulgy style side folder:

 

 

We'll have to see though.

 

 

Corbin

Edited April 18, 2010 by Corbin

[mgconnor13 206]

That's sweet. I'm have the ultimak rail, I'm on the hunt for an Aimpoint and the triangle folding stock. I really like that bottom gun, pretty much what I want to build

[Donkismash 81]

That's sweet. I'm have the ultimak rail, I'm on the hunt for an Aimpoint and the triangle folding stock. I really like that bottom gun, pretty much what I want to build

I would look into Trijicons new 42mm RMR sight...also Scott(DPH) is gonna have another batch of his triangle folder coming in

[mgconnor13 206]

I have a question for others who went the Form 1 route and did it in there name instead a trust. When engraving the receiver does it have to be your full name or initials? how exactly does your name have to be on there? I know owner, city and state (can state be abbreviated?) have to be on it I'm just wondering in what form.

[MT Predator 2,294]

I am in this process as well with a Draco. Before I get too far, who knows the real deal regarding SBRs made from pistols and the fact they have to be 922R compliant? I have read tons of info on the net about it, some armchair lawyers interpreting ATF Rulings say NFA does not need to be compliant as they are not "Sporting" weapons. Other folks say the ATF changed their stance on it and pistols converted to SBRs have to meet the parts count.

Nobody has heard of this new ATF ruling regarding converting said Dracos into SBRs needing to be 922R compliant? If so, that throws a big friggin wrench into my project as I planned on using a Polish underfolder for a stock. That ruling would leave me with 3 replacable FCG parts I can count. I wanted that stock and a foreign foregrip set I have so they don't count. I cannot come up with anything else to replace as it is a Draco pistol to start with.

[corbin 621]

Nobody has heard of this new ATF ruling regarding converting said Dracos into SBRs needing to be 922R compliant? If so, that throws a big friggin wrench into my project as I planned on using a Polish underfolder for a stock. That ruling would leave me with 3 replacable FCG parts I can count. I wanted that stock and a foreign foregrip set I have so they don't count. I cannot come up with anything else to replace as it is a Draco pistol to start with.

 

 

If it's 10 or fewer foreign parts on the Draco, you'd have to only use U.S. mags, replace the piston, the pistol grip or maybe the muzzle attachment. I'm not sure if they include that as a foreign part, since it's just a welded on nut. Putting a U.S. made attachment couldn't hurt though.

 

If they don't call the welded on muzzle nut a muzzle device, there would be 14 parts (including a foreign mag). Subtract 3 for the FCG. Change out the pistol grip and you SHOULD be OK. If you only use U.S. mags, that'd get you even more U.S. parts. I'd probably add a U.S. made muzzle device, just to be sure.

 

Here's a pic of 922 stuff:

 

Edited April 23, 2010 by Corbin

[nalioth 405]

The ATF only recently reversed their position on NFA weapons requiring 922r compliance.

 

For years, their position was "With NFA weapons, you're paying for 'non sporting'" (and as such, did not need to comply with 922r).

 

I'd suggest you consult a lawyer.

[cellsworth 21]

Any one know where I could get a new or used 100 series style side folder to use? I've seen a few krinks done like that that came out well. Also been hunting around for a rail system. The draco hand gaurds are standard length right? Any verdicts on a stand alone gas rail and a hand guard verus a full quad rail? I'm looking for suggestions for a flash hider/ brake too while I'm hunting around for a pistol to start the build.

 

I believe that the AK 100 series side folder needs to be built into the gun. In the case of a Draco, it would be a much more labor intensive option than, say, something that would attach to an ACE folding mechanism.

 

Just in case you didn't know, you would need to use an adapter to put a Bulgarian 4-piece flash hider on a Draco. The Bulgarian 4-piece flash hider is for 24mm X 1.5 RH threads, while the Draco has 14mm x 1 threads.

[mgconnor13 206]

I realize the triangle folder would be a lot of work (but would look so sweet). Also realized the thread issue with the Bulgarian 4 piece flash hider. Probably just go with something else instead of the thread adapter. I'm still playing with ideas and figuring out what I want to build.

 

Talked to the NFA Branch the other day. I'm going to SBS my S-12 and I wanted to clarify the requirements for engraving the receiver.

The markings can't be a surface marking, has to be .003" deep, lettering has to be 1/16th" print or larger. Postal abbreviation can be used for the state. If you put your markings on the barrel the receiver SN has to be on the barrel too.

 

here's an example as I understand it

 

John A Doe

Some Where, NC

[nalioth 405]

I realize the triangle folder would be a lot of work (but would look so sweet). Also realized the thread issue with the Bulgarian 4 piece flash hider. Probably just go with something else instead of the thread adapter. I'm still playing with ideas and figuring out what I want to build.

Nothing wrong with the 14x1LH to 24mm thread adapter.

 

It's use will bring AK74 options to your Draco.

[macbeau 902]

The ATF only recently reversed their position on NFA weapons requiring 922r compliance.

 

For years, their position was "With NFA weapons, you're paying for 'non sporting'" (and as such, did not need to comply with 922r).

 

I'd suggest you consult a lawyer.

It seems that as of July '09, the ATF is, in fact, now requiering 922r compliance on SBR's

Macbeau sends...

[nalioth 405]

The ATF only recently reversed their position on NFA weapons requiring 922r compliance.

 

For years, their position was "With NFA weapons, you're paying for 'non sporting'" (and as such, did not need to comply with 922r).

 

I'd suggest you consult a lawyer.

It seems that as of July '09, the ATF is, in fact, now requiering 922r compliance on SBR's

Macbeau sends...

. . but only for Mister, Mrs., or Miss

 

Those letters are only binding for the person they're written to, and it is known that two (or more) folks can ask the same question and get two (or more) different answers.

 

 

Again, I'd suggest you consult a lawyer.

[macbeau 902]

Then basically you are saying that it's better to beg for forgiveness than get permission.

If you ask and the ATF sends you such a letter (as I posted above) then you are bound...

If you go on the fact that some people get letters to the contrary and the ATF has historically viewed SBS's and SBR's as exempt, then there is some room of doubt if the ATF hasn't put out something on the Federal Register (which I cannot find).

Consulting an Gun / 2nd Amendment savy attorney is a bit like an Easter egg hunt - and a $$$ one at that - and they don't get to write or interpret the law - Just defend you from procesution... Any attorney worth his salt would caution anyone (every prvate citizen) away from any NFA transfers (or form 1's) just for the liability.

BTW - I work in the local DA's office... That is the consensus here...

 

Again - It seems like it's better to beg for for forgivness (within the historical practices and published code sections) than get permission.

 

Macbeau sends...

[Krom 36]

Alittle off topic, I want go the same route as mentioned earlier, Draco to SBR eventually. But I wanna go pistol>rifle>SRB.

 

I was thinking of adding a longer barrel attachment to a draco to bring it to the min 16" barrel length and then tack wield the attachment on. Then install a stock and use it as a rifle until I want to change it over to a SBR.

 

Is this legal?

[nalioth 405]

Alittle off topic, I want go the same route as mentioned earlier, Draco to SBR eventually. But I wanna go pistol>rifle>SRB.

 

I was thinking of adding a longer barrel attachment to a draco to bring it to the min 16" barrel length and then tack wield the attachment on. Then install a stock and use it as a rifle until I want to change it over to a SBR.

 

Is this legal?

Yes, so long as your attachment is one of the four approved methods, and it's in place before you install a stock.

[Krom 36]

Alittle off topic, I want go the same route as mentioned earlier, Draco to SBR eventually. But I wanna go pistol>rifle>SRB.

 

I was thinking of adding a longer barrel attachment to a draco to bring it to the min 16" barrel length and then tack wield the attachment on. Then install a stock and use it as a rifle until I want to change it over to a SBR.

 

Is this legal?

Yes, so long as your attachment is one of the four approved methods, and it's in place before you install a stock.

 

What do you mean by "the four approved methods"? I'm assuming that it must be 'permanently' attached somehow? I know I need to do the research for myself, but it's nice to get a heads up before hand from experienced members.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

I also need to find a source of a ~4-5" muzzle device, or a way to fabricate one.

[madmax4x4 68]

What, if any parts on a draco are US made? Barrel, receiver, anything?

[nalioth 405]

Alittle off topic, I want go the same route as mentioned earlier, Draco to SBR eventually. But I wanna go pistol>rifle>SRB.

 

I was thinking of adding a longer barrel attachment to a draco to bring it to the min 16" barrel length and then tack wield the attachment on. Then install a stock and use it as a rifle until I want to change it over to a SBR.

 

Is this legal?

Yes, so long as your attachment is one of the four approved methods, and it's in place before you install a stock.

 

What do you mean by "the four approved methods"? I'm assuming that it must be 'permanently' attached somehow? I know I need to do the research for myself, but it's nice to get a heads up before hand from experienced members.

It's also nice to use the search:

Ask google this: "four approved methods" @ saiga-12.com and holy cow, there's the answer!

 

 

What, if any parts on a draco are US made? Barrel, receiver, anything?

Century adds a Tapco FCG, not for 922r purposes, but at the request of their lawyers.

[macbeau 902]

That said, "blind pinning" is often the best method for gun builders/owners/hobbiest's as it is the easiest to undo or correct later (via drilling).... Welding and Soldering (especially silver soldering) can be problematic, if refinishing or more welding is desired (all solder has to be completely removed before you can start welding).

 

If blind-pinned - Flatten the observable (head) surface and center-punch it before you inset it. This will make it somewhat easier to drill-out later. Also - set the pin with something like JB weld so it doesn't rotate when trying to drill it out (IE: you now (or sometime in the future) want to do a Form 1 on it.).

[Krom 36]

Thanks, my google-fu is weak, I didn't know I could specifically search the forum.

[vampire847 9]

ok i know i saw a parts kit for an underfold stock... anyone know how to install it?