Suggestions? FTE (Failure to Eject) on New Saiga12

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Hello,

 

and first, thanks for reading my post. I'm new to the forums and to owning a Saiga 12 (just bought my first one a few days ago) but I know a fair amount about guns as I've been shooting for 20 odd years though I wouldn't consider myself an expert or a gunsmith in any right.

 

THE PROBLEM

 

So here's my problem, I took my new Saiga12 (converted) to the range today for the first time to get a feel for her (I've attached a picture below). I put one round in the 5rd. clip to test one out and she shoots great. (I was shooting Remington Birdshot, 1 oz., 2 3/4 in., 8 shot from Walmart). I put 2 rounds in the same clip and licked off two quick shots, no problem. I then loaded up all 5 and only got 1 round off before every subsequent round would jam and not eject. I tried another clip (10 rd.) and had the same problem. I could occasionally get 2 rounds to fire back-to-back, but never 3 w/o the spent round failing to eject. My gas regulator is set on 2 (I tried moving it to 1 just to see what would happen and it wouldn't even kick the round half-way out like 2 would).

 

MY THOUGHTS ON THE CAUSE

 

So I'm thinking it might be one of 3 things, but that's why I'm here asking you guys. My thoughts are that it could be one or a combination of the following:

 

1. Ammo. Another guy was a couple lanes down and was having the same problem w/ birdshot. He then fired low recoil buckshot and had the same problem, but when he switched to normal "full power" buckshot he was able to lick off several rounds in a row. I've heard such good things about Saigas cycling with most decent ammo though, so I'm not sure this is the problem, but intend to switch ammo and try it out.

 

2. Lube. My gun is brand new, though it was converted by a third-party my FFL dealing refused to name to me. One of the owners of the range suggested I break the gun down and grease it up really good so as to reduce any friction that might be causing the problem. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd appreciate an opinion on Rem Oil v. Grease as well.

 

3. New Springs. Since the gun is so new, I thought maybe it needs to be broken in. My pistols that I've bought new in the past always had really tight springs and it seems like any FTE problems I had would go away after firing a few hundred rounds through them. So maybe the springs are so tight that the rounds don't have enough force to fully push the bolt back? That kind of sucks b/c if I have to fire dozens of rounds to loosen it up by loading one at a time, that's a pain....

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

Thanks to anyone who reads this. Again, I'm fully acknowledging that I know next to nothing about Saiga shotguns but I plan on learning as I go. If anyone can help point me in the right direction, or if anyone has had a similar problem to this in the past, I'm very grateful for any insight.

 

Thanks again!

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Hello,

 

and first, thanks for reading my post. I'm new to the forums and to owning a Saiga 12 (just bought my first one a few days ago) but I know a fair amount about guns as I've been shooting for 20 odd years though I wouldn't consider myself an expert or a gunsmith in any right.

 

THE PROBLEM

 

So here's my problem, I took my new Saiga12 (converted) to the range today for the first time to get a feel for her (I've attached a picture below). I put one round in the 5rd. clip to test one out and she shoots great. (I was shooting Remington Birdshot, 1 oz., 2 3/4 in., 8 shot from Walmart). I put 2 rounds in the same clip and licked off two quick shots, no problem. I then loaded up all 5 and only got 1 round off before every subsequent round would jam and not eject. I tried another clip (10 rd.) and had the same problem. I could occasionally get 2 rounds to fire back-to-back, but never 3 w/o the spent round failing to eject. My gas regulator is set on 2 (I tried moving it to 1 just to see what would happen and it wouldn't even kick the round half-way out like 2 would).

 

MY THOUGHTS ON THE CAUSE

 

So I'm thinking it might be one of 3 things, but that's why I'm here asking you guys. My thoughts are that it could be one or a combination of the following:

 

1. Ammo. Another guy was a couple lanes down and was having the same problem w/ birdshot. He then fired low recoil buckshot and had the same problem, but when he switched to normal "full power" buckshot he was able to lick off several rounds in a row. I've heard such good things about Saigas cycling with most decent ammo though, so I'm not sure this is the problem, but intend to switch ammo and try it out.

 

2. Lube. My gun is brand new, though it was converted by a third-party my FFL dealing refused to name to me. One of the owners of the range suggested I break the gun down and grease it up really good so as to reduce any friction that might be causing the problem. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd appreciate an opinion on Rem Oil v. Grease as well.

 

3. New Springs. Since the gun is so new, I thought maybe it needs to be broken in. My pistols that I've bought new in the past always had really tight springs and it seems like any FTE problems I had would go away after firing a few hundred rounds through them. So maybe the springs are so tight that the rounds don't have enough force to fully push the bolt back? That kind of sucks b/c if I have to fire dozens of rounds to loosen it up by loading one at a time, that's a pain....

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

Thanks to anyone who reads this. Again, I'm fully acknowledging that I know next to nothing about Saiga shotguns but I plan on learning as I go. If anyone can help point me in the right direction, or if anyone has had a similar problem to this in the past, I'm very grateful for any insight.

 

Thanks again!

[sim1954 11]

Maybe take out you gas plug.Shine flashlight in the gas chamber you should see gas ports on the bottem check that they are clear and not fouled up. I use a dental pick but a paper clip will produce the same result All your ports should be clear you should have either 3 or four that are unabstructed check this first then wait for other members input.

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

If it has not been broken in usually you can use slugs or buck...I used high velocity bb's on setting 1. Run about 200 rounds through it before going to light loads like the remmington you're using. Use something with a muzzle velocity over 1300 fps. You should notice a difference.

Edited April 23, 2010 by TO THE FLOOR

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Hello,

 

and first, thanks for reading my post. I'm new to the forums and to owning a Saiga 12 (just bought my first one a few days ago) but I know a fair amount about guns as I've been shooting for 20 odd years though I wouldn't consider myself an expert or a gunsmith in any right.

 

THE PROBLEM

 

So here's my problem, I took my new Saiga12 (converted) to the range today for the first time to get a feel for her (I've attached a picture below). I put one round in the 5rd. clip to test one out and she shoots great. (I was shooting Remington Birdshot, 1 oz., 2 3/4 in., 8 shot from Walmart). I put 2 rounds in the same clip and licked off two quick shots, no problem. I then loaded up all 5 and only got 1 round off before every subsequent round would jam and not eject. I tried another clip (10 rd.) and had the same problem. I could occasionally get 2 rounds to fire back-to-back, but never 3 w/o the spent round failing to eject. My gas regulator is set on 2 (I tried moving it to 1 just to see what would happen and it wouldn't even kick the round half-way out like 2 would).

 

MY THOUGHTS ON THE CAUSE

 

So I'm thinking it might be one of 3 things, but that's why I'm here asking you guys. My thoughts are that it could be one or a combination of the following:

 

1. Ammo. Another guy was a couple lanes down and was having the same problem w/ birdshot. He then fired low recoil buckshot and had the same problem, but when he switched to normal "full power" buckshot he was able to lick off several rounds in a row. I've heard such good things about Saigas cycling with most decent ammo though, so I'm not sure this is the problem, but intend to switch ammo and try it out.

 

2. Lube. My gun is brand new, though it was converted by a third-party my FFL dealing refused to name to me. One of the owners of the range suggested I break the gun down and grease it up really good so as to reduce any friction that might be causing the problem. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd appreciate an opinion on Rem Oil v. Grease as well.

 

3. New Springs. Since the gun is so new, I thought maybe it needs to be broken in. My pistols that I've bought new in the past always had really tight springs and it seems like any FTE problems I had would go away after firing a few hundred rounds through them. So maybe the springs are so tight that the rounds don't have enough force to fully push the bolt back? That kind of sucks b/c if I have to fire dozens of rounds to loosen it up by loading one at a time, that's a pain....

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

Thanks to anyone who reads this. Again, I'm fully acknowledging that I know next to nothing about Saiga shotguns but I plan on learning as I go. If anyone can help point me in the right direction, or if anyone has had a similar problem to this in the past, I'm very grateful for any insight.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

The factory Russian guns are not made to cycle low brass bulk pack ammo - although some will. If you wish to leave it in factory trim, you may want to experiment with higher brass ammo to see what the gun likes.

 

Cycling high brass can help break the gun in, and will sometimes help with cycling bulk grade low brass - but not always.

 

Every one of these guns literally assembled by hand and will often have a character all its own. Spend $500 (more or less) on an off the shelf Saiga, and you will get a great $500 gun. The difference in expense between one of these and a high dollar gun can often be measured in ammo cost over time.

 

Your stock Saiga may like $1.00 a shell ammo, and if you are happy with the way it shoots - great! If you want a gun that reliably cycles ammo that runs Wally World bulk bird shot at .19 a shell, you can expect to put some money into, or invest some time and effort in your gun.

 

Once in a while, you get lucky and spend $500 on a gun that will cycle everything right off the shelf, and if you find you have one of these... my advice to you is to keep it just as it is and count yourself among a very fortunate and rare minority.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Not to bust your balls, but please call it a mag or a magazine, not a clip. Clips are found in M1 Garands, etc.

 

All of the info you need to make your weapon run is in this forum. A large part of it is in the stickies. I have come to the conclusion that nearly all of them need to be torn down to the barrel and reciever and 'enhanced' to work well with low brass. Some S12s need more work and some need just a little. Good luck with it and don't remove too much metal. If you have any questions about how to perform a certain mod that is in the stickies, many of us will be glad to help.

 

These should inspire you....

click here

 

.... and here

 

There are no different springs and both weapons do not have Gunfixer plugs. What you seek lies within the weapon. You have to find the right recipe for your particular weapon depending on what the characteristics of the failures are. I am not an expert or a gunsmith and I got my first S12 in January. Almost everyone here knows more about these weapons than I do.... you can make it run.

That being said, do not give up, be safe, and read the stickies.

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Hello,

 

and first, thanks for reading my post. I'm new to the forums and to owning a Saiga 12 (just bought my first one a few days ago) but I know a fair amount about guns as I've been shooting for 20 odd years though I wouldn't consider myself an expert or a gunsmith in any right.

 

THE PROBLEM

 

So here's my problem, I took my new Saiga12 (converted) to the range today for the first time to get a feel for her (I've attached a picture below). I put one round in the 5rd. clip to test one out and she shoots great. (I was shooting Remington Birdshot, 1 oz., 2 3/4 in., 8 shot from Walmart). I put 2 rounds in the same clip and licked off two quick shots, no problem. I then loaded up all 5 and only got 1 round off before every subsequent round would jam and not eject. I tried another clip (10 rd.) and had the same problem. I could occasionally get 2 rounds to fire back-to-back, but never 3 w/o the spent round failing to eject. My gas regulator is set on 2 (I tried moving it to 1 just to see what would happen and it wouldn't even kick the round half-way out like 2 would).

 

MY THOUGHTS ON THE CAUSE

 

So I'm thinking it might be one of 3 things, but that's why I'm here asking you guys. My thoughts are that it could be one or a combination of the following:

 

1. Ammo. Another guy was a couple lanes down and was having the same problem w/ birdshot. He then fired low recoil buckshot and had the same problem, but when he switched to normal "full power" buckshot he was able to lick off several rounds in a row. I've heard such good things about Saigas cycling with most decent ammo though, so I'm not sure this is the problem, but intend to switch ammo and try it out.

 

2. Lube. My gun is brand new, though it was converted by a third-party my FFL dealing refused to name to me. One of the owners of the range suggested I break the gun down and grease it up really good so as to reduce any friction that might be causing the problem. If anyone has thoughts on this, I'd appreciate an opinion on Rem Oil v. Grease as well.

 

3. New Springs. Since the gun is so new, I thought maybe it needs to be broken in. My pistols that I've bought new in the past always had really tight springs and it seems like any FTE problems I had would go away after firing a few hundred rounds through them. So maybe the springs are so tight that the rounds don't have enough force to fully push the bolt back? That kind of sucks b/c if I have to fire dozens of rounds to loosen it up by loading one at a time, that's a pain....

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

Thanks to anyone who reads this. Again, I'm fully acknowledging that I know next to nothing about Saiga shotguns but I plan on learning as I go. If anyone can help point me in the right direction, or if anyone has had a similar problem to this in the past, I'm very grateful for any insight.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

The factory Russian guns are not made to cycle low brass bulk pack ammo - although some will. If you wish to leave it in factory trim, you may want to experiment with higher brass ammo to see what the gun likes.

 

Cycling high brass can help break the gun in, and will sometimes help with cycling bulk grade low brass - but not always.

 

Every one of these guns literally assembled by hand and will often have a character all its own. Spend $500 (more or less) on an off the shelf Saiga, and you will get a great $500 gun. The difference in expense between one of these and a high dollar gun can often be measured in ammo cost over time.

 

Your stock Saiga may like $1.00 a shell ammo, and if you are happy with the way it shoots - great! If you want a gun that reliably cycles ammo that runs Wally World bulk bird shot at .19 a shell, you can expect to put some money into, or invest some time and effort in your gun.

 

Once in a while, you get lucky and spend $500 on a gun that will cycle everything right off the shelf, and if you find you have one of these... my advice to you is to keep it just as it is and count yourself among a very fortunate and rare minority.

 

 

Very insightful input from one and all. I'll give the high brass ammo a shot and run quite a few rounds through it. I appreciate everyone's feedback. Thank you all.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The factory Russian guns are not made to cycle low brass bulk pack ammo - although some will. If you wish to leave it in factory trim, you may want to experiment with higher brass ammo to see what the gun likes.

 

Cycling high brass can help break the gun in, and will sometimes help with cycling bulk grade low brass - but not always.

 

Every one of these guns literally assembled by hand and will often have a character all its own. Spend $500 (more or less) on an off the shelf Saiga, and you will get a great $500 gun. The difference in expense between one of these and a high dollar gun can often be measured in ammo cost over time.

 

Your stock Saiga may like $1.00 a shell ammo, and if you are happy with the way it shoots - great! If you want a gun that reliably cycles ammo that runs Wally World bulk bird shot at .19 a shell, you can expect to put some money into, or invest some time and effort in your gun.

 

Once in a while, you get lucky and spend $500 on a gun that will cycle everything right off the shelf, and if you find you have one of these... my advice to you is to keep it just as it is and count yourself among a very fortunate and rare minority.

 

^ This.

 

I test-fired my S-12 before converting restoring her, and she was prone to FTE issues with low-brass birdshot, (of course). I solved that to a large extent with a Gunfixr's gas plug, a Polychoke, and ~150 high-brass shells fired. Still, there were occasional FTE's with low-brass unless the gas plug was wide open, (setting 3).

 

Then I sent my gun down to Mike at Lone Star Arms, (Waffenschmied). He performed unique and extensive custom work on the gas system, fcg, etc. This is how my gun now performs firing Federal low-brass bird, (Game Load ~$4.90 per 25-rnd box at Walmart), on factory gas setting 1...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQU37GG6-Q

Edited April 23, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[btr 15]

I would insist on finding the person who did the conversion. Since that voids the warranty, they should fix it if they screwed it up.

 

How many gas ports do you have?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I would insist on finding the person who did the conversion. Since that voids the warranty, they should fix it if they screwed it up.

 

How many gas ports do you have?

 

Only problem is.... they could screw it up worse....

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Checked the gas ports today. I have 2 fully open (unobstructed), one that's half to 2/3 open and another that looks to be about 1/3 open. I'm going to search the threads for a way to try to get them all aligned and open.

 

Thanks,

[btr 15]

evlblkwpnz, yes, I didn't think of that... still, I'd ask, and if they seem to be a reputable company (like a name on the board) I'd get them to fix it.

 

If they won't or seem not so good, then:

 

Cadiz does the warranty work. If they won't cover it under warranty (doesn't hurt to call and ask) you could pay them to have it worked on. That would ensure it should work with both buck and federal bulk birdshot.

 

These guns should work with fine with both hipower and low power loads...

 

Bad quality control means this is not always the case.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Checked the gas ports today. I have 2 fully open (unobstructed), one that's half to 2/3 open and another that looks to be about 1/3 open. I'm going to search the threads for a way to try to get them all aligned and open.

 

Thanks,

Here's how to fix blocked ports without a press.

 

Here's how to determine if you have the right sized ports.

 

Here's a quick tutorial on how to reduce friction in a few places.

 

But do break it in first.

 

Good luck.

Welcome to the forum!

[selph arms llc 14]

If you want ill fix it for you for the cost of ammo and S&H. Let me know if I can help.

[Bvamp 604]

We see, here at the warranty center for these guns, a great number of converted guns that were not converted properly. We see aftermarket parts for saigas that are supposed to be dropped in and working NOT work and cause malfunctions. We see guns with four ports that did not come from the factory with four ports that STILL dont cycle. We see springs not bent right, the list goes on.

 

if you can, please post a picture of your hammer showing the profile from the side, and from the striking face of the hammer. three ports is enough to cycle these guns reliably, so if you have a gun with four ports in it, and two are partly obstructed (whoever put the fourth hole is irrelevant at this point) you should still have enough gas. There are a great number of guns that are converted, and the hammer is not profile properly, and causes malfunctions. Im suspecting this as well as your gas system to be the culprits. An easy check (not fix, mind you) is to take a q-tip and some automatic transmission fluid, and smear the bolt carrier's lower surface, and the hammer face, and see if that helps at all. if it does, you need to profile the hammer the right way.

 

we warranty guns to cycle federal 1 1/8oz bulk pack, and not winchester. the winchester stuff is either too soft of a plastic hull, or is not enough to cycle the gun, period.

 

One thing that should be kept in mind is that this is a combat shotgun, and that the Russians dont even have shells like we do, in that there is no such thing as "low powered" shells in most of europe.

 

Chances are, if your seller wont tell you who converted it, it was not converted by someone with the FFL to manufacture firearms. It also should be MARKED on the reciever who has done the conversion, especially if it is being sold as new.

[termpred 3]

To the OP,

 

I kinda have a similar problem as you, except my gun is not converted. The forearm that you use can make a difference on how it cycles. I have a tri-rail which I don't really like anyway and am going to try out a factory forearm. I had Remington and Federal Wal-Mart bulk shot that I was using during a clay shoot. It would cycle about 90% of the Federal ammo but wouldn't cycle the Remington at all. I decided that this needs to be broken in with slugs and buckshot first before determining there's a real problem. I also polished the bottom of the bolt carrier and the bolt and can already tell that the bolt carrier group moves more smoothly. I have 3 gas ports, but one seems to be partially obstructed, but I'll wait till it's broken in to tackle that issue.

 

In summary, mine wouldn't cycle Remington either. Mine's also brand new and not broken in. First break it in and see if that helps.

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Gentlemen,

 

thank you all for your input and education on the issue at hand. I believe I've discovered the cause (and cure) of the FTE issue....Remmington low-brass ammo. I cleaned and oiled my S12 up thoroughly and at the suggestion of several posts on this site, bought a box of Federal ammo from Walmart (7 1/2 shot, 2 3/4 in., 1 1/8 oz.). They were out of everything but the 100 pack, which I was hesitant to buy not knowing if they would cycle, but at $22.00 it was worth a shot.

 

I also bought a Gunfixer gas plug after all the rave reviews on this site and others, but I didn't install it (more on that in a minute).

 

I rolled out to the range and on Setting 1 the Federal would not eject. On setting 2 I had 0% FTE. I went through about 40 rounds on setting 2 and never had a single FTE. Moral of the story being that any other newbies to the Saiga12 our there, stay away from the Remmington Walmart low-brass.

 

Back to the Gunfixer gas plug...I'm not sure I like this, but please let me know what you all think. I do like the concept and the idea of having more than just what amounts to a basic on/off switch w/ the factory plug. The 3 settings are nice. BUT, it doesn't lock into place like the factory plug and mine is skewed in relation to the port and the number on the front. The "divots" (for lack of a better word) don't line up with anything so you can't tell when you have one directly over the ports. Eye-balling it, it appears the area created for gas to escape is 1/3 of the way between a notch in the front and a number....so how would I know that I have it lined up correctly? I'm hoping the answer isn't "just shoot a round and see if it ejects"...that wouldn't be feasible in any hunting/home defense situation.

 

Let me know what you guys think about the Gunfixer plug and what your experiences have been with it and how I should know if I have it set correctly.

 

Thanks!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Gunfixer plug? I never tried one, but it appears to be an innovative idea. My opinion?.... these weapons do not need the GF plug to be reliable. However, I may be missing out on the whole 'fixing' goodness that the plug offers (ignorance is bliss). I still haven't grasped the concept of exactly what it 'fixes'

[corbin 621]

The GF plug SHOULD click at the various positions once you screw in down. The spring loaded pin that holds the original plug in index should have the numbers line up WITH IT when it clicks. That's how you know which setting it's on.

[Vonstab 0]

Mine was also having fte issues, but only with bird shot 1250fps or less. Anything 1300 fps or higher worked fine. You can work ur gun or pay someone to tune it or get a weaker comp spring which i use with the lighter loads. I have the gunfixers plug but it doesnt change the upper or lower range of pressure related feeds, it just allows you to better tune the gun to a particular load. Ive tried it with lower powered loads and the stock plug with the same load and neither would feed lower rounds. The comp spring works and i can use a lower setting on the plug and not work the action as hard. After a bit the 1250fps rounds would feed better in stock configuration, but still not reliably. I also use a polychoke 2 but havent noticed any affect on the action with it and didnt really expect to.

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

The GF plug SHOULD click at the various positions once you screw in down. The spring loaded pin that holds the original plug in index should have the numbers line up WITH IT when it clicks. That's how you know which setting it's on.

 

 

Mine doesn't click at all...maybe it's an earlier version. Since it doesn't click, you think I should return it? The way it is there's really no way to know if it's lined up w/ the ports or not...

[NTRATUROWNRISK 1]

Mine was also having fte issues, but only with bird shot 1250fps or less. Anything 1300 fps or higher worked fine. You can work ur gun or pay someone to tune it or get a weaker comp spring which i use with the lighter loads. I have the gunfixers plug but it doesnt change the upper or lower range of pressure related feeds, it just allows you to better tune the gun to a particular load. Ive tried it with lower powered loads and the stock plug with the same load and neither would feed lower rounds. The comp spring works and i can use a lower setting on the plug and not work the action as hard. After a bit the 1250fps rounds would feed better in stock configuration, but still not reliably. I also use a polychoke 2 but havent noticed any affect on the action with it and didnt really expect to.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. I actually switched to a different brand of ammo (Federal) from the Remmington I was using which happens to have a lower velocity (Federal is 1200fps) and it works like a charm. I think the higher Dram Eq. (3) helps to work the action. Although the Remm. ammo doesn't even list the Dram Eq, but I'm assuming it must be lower since it doesn't produce enough pressure to cycle the gun and the shot is the same weight. From my experience, keep the Remm. low-brass away from new Saigas.

[corbin 621]

Mine doesn't click at all...maybe it's an earlier version. Since it doesn't click, you think I should return it? The way it is there's really no way to know if it's lined up w/ the ports or not...

 

 

As far as I know, ALL of the GF plugs had indexing clicks. Couldn't hurt to exchange it and see if the next one does the same thing. If it does, then it's probably the shotgun. The way they're made, the number about lines up with the indexing pin. If you have the plug out and look at the back of it (where the gas hits it), you can see that when one of the gas "chutes" is at the 6 o'clock position, the corresponding number should be near the indexing pin up front.

 

Perhaps it's possible the pin is just enough out of allignment to not engage any detents in the plug?