Tac47 Autoplug Video

[gpqueen 545]

Wow, just seeing this thread, so I think I missed something. I kind of get the gist of it, though.

The whole idea with gas regulation is to make the gun work with the same amount of force, despite the differences of force being supplied by the ammunition used. Whether or not the plug self-regulates or is regulated by hand, this is the end goal. The factory plug, and various aftermarket plugs achieve this in varying amounts of success.

If all you want is for the gun to work with everything, then just use the max setting on a regular plug, and never change it. It will work with just about all ammo types, until the gun cycles so fast that the mag cannot keep up. Of course, the higher pressure ammo will beat the shit out of the guns' internals, but it will work.

While I haven't watched the video linked here, but what I've been hearing, and what is suggested here, is that the auto plug allows shooting everything. However, without the equipment to actually measure the bolt carrier speed, the ejection distance is the best way we have to tell how hard the gun is cycling. It should be clear to everyone that the further the empty shell goes, the faster and harder the bolt carrier went rearward. It has also been clearly established that by changing the setting on the various plugs, that the ejection distance of a given ammo type can be reduced, even to the point of failure to eject on low-powered ammo.

Anybody who develops a self-regulating plug can say what they want, but ideally, the plug is supposed to save extra wear and tear on the gun itself, ie., release extra pressure to the gun, allowing just enough to reliably operate the gun without beating it up. It basically works like a wastegate on a turbo.

If the auto plug causes higher powered ammo to eject noticeably further, then it's not working, period. You can install the factory plug, my plug, Tony's plug, or Tac 47s plug, set them for low brass and shoot that and high brass ammo through it and get exactly the same results.

 

 

FWIW, I have one test auto-plug in the field right now. It's in the hands of the person I know who shoots his S12 the most. I gave it to him for free, and told him to "use and abuse" it. I wante to know how well it worked with whatever he wanted to put through it, and how long it would take to clog up. So far, he tells me that low brass birdshot is working fine, and that high brass, 1oz. 1800fps slugs work fine, with the slug empties landing right next to the low brass empties. He's still adjusting it, turning it down, and it's working even better, as he tells me.

 

Will I make more? Maybe, but I'm waiting to see what happens with E-Tacs auto plug. I can't make them and sell them for $25, so, if his works, at that price, I won't bother.

 

 

For the sake of arguement we have three different rounds of birdshot, birdshot A is rated at 1300FPS, birdshot B is rated at 1250FPS, and birdshot C is rated at 1150FPS. So load up a magazine with birdshot A, B, & C select setting #3 which we would all agree is the setting we use for low brass birdshot. Dump the magazine. What happens? Do all three birdshot loads fall in the same area? Of course they don't because of the higher gas pressures of the different birdshot rounds. We see that some hulls fly further than others and we feel the increased recoil in our shoulders. Now if we can't expect three very similar birdshot rounds to land in the same place how are we going to expect rounds such as slugs and magnum loads to land in the same spot as a birdshot load? Again if your criteria for an autoplug is all hulls must land in the same area then the Tac47 ain't your plug. For me I will never shoot 3" magnum loads, I have no use for them and as stated I don't think these guns were designed for those types of rounds. As long as I can shoot mixed magazines without the bolt carrier slamming into the rear trunnion that is good enough for me.

I must not understand how a gas regulated plug works?

I thought If you set it to only allow a set amount of gas volume into the system, then every shell should be ejected with only that set volume of gas. All other gas should be relieved out the front and not be allowed into the system which would make all the different shells eject around the same spot and the felt recoil the same for all.

Explain to me how it works then.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

This has turned into a very interesting discussion on the very nature of auto or self-regulating gas systems, (accomplished through just a plug or in conjunction with other work done to the other components). Just to make the thread a little more interesting, I'll throw this out there: I think that Mike Rogers at Lone Star Arms is a step or two ahead of most other manufacturers in this area.

 

I'd love to see him chime in here.

[wired 27]

Looks to me like a simple pressure regulator. Felt recoil would be different with different loads since that is independent of gas pressure in the barrel and is more a function of Newtons 3rd law. Terminal gas pressure would be regulated by the gas pressure regulator and in cylinder pressure would remain the same regardless of the type of ammo used. Pressure rise time would be determined by port size. With that type of regulator it would be beneficial to use as large a port as practical.

 

Just a guess.

[6500rpm 670]

I may have missed something, but this would lend some proof. It was stated that the carrier didn't bottom out on the rear trunion-this is kind of subjective to feel with a limited number of shots. Next time you go out (if you didn't have some type of control item this time), try putting some masking tape on the trunion or something like titanium white oil paint. If the carrier bottoms out it will definately leave a visable mark. I'd have to say if it stops short of hitting the trunion (and you have proof) and it cycles all those loads it truely works regardless of how far it ejects shells. I think from what's posted it would be good to have some kind of control item in place to "show" that no rear trunion contact occured. I know you were just doing this as a fun vid, but it would be cool to take it a step beyond if you go out anytime soon and don't mind.

Edited August 24, 2010 by 6500rpm

[Bridis 319]

I understand what CSS, Gunfixer and Tromix are saying, but I think I'm fine with a "semi-auto-regulated" gas plug that lets me shoot everything without damaging my gun. But then again, is it actually possible to guarantee no damage without full control of the gas? I'd have to say no. I'd also say that it wouldn't be possible to guarantee no damage would happen using any plug. There is obviously enough of a variation between the different types of shells and the different settings on the different plugs that hulls are ejecting all over the place. Though we continue to fire our S-12s with little regard for the problems that may be casued by the off chance that we fire a round that is a tad to hot for our current setting. So I say it's fine that the hulls fall where they may. If it's good enough for the manual plugs, it should be good enough for the auto plugs. Is it an auto plug in the truest sense of the word/expectations? Maybe not. But if it works just the same as a manual plug and you don't have to touch it, who cares?

Edited August 24, 2010 by Bridis

[MikeD 541]

Wow, just seeing this thread, so I think I missed something. I kind of get the gist of it, though.

The whole idea with gas regulation is to make the gun work with the same amount of force, despite the differences of force being supplied by the ammunition used. Whether or not the plug self-regulates or is regulated by hand, this is the end goal. The factory plug, and various aftermarket plugs achieve this in varying amounts of success.

If all you want is for the gun to work with everything, then just use the max setting on a regular plug, and never change it. It will work with just about all ammo types, until the gun cycles so fast that the mag cannot keep up. Of course, the higher pressure ammo will beat the shit out of the guns' internals, but it will work.

While I haven't watched the video linked here, but what I've been hearing, and what is suggested here, is that the auto plug allows shooting everything. However, without the equipment to actually measure the bolt carrier speed, the ejection distance is the best way we have to tell how hard the gun is cycling. It should be clear to everyone that the further the empty shell goes, the faster and harder the bolt carrier went rearward. It has also been clearly established that by changing the setting on the various plugs, that the ejection distance of a given ammo type can be reduced, even to the point of failure to eject on low-powered ammo.

Anybody who develops a self-regulating plug can say what they want, but ideally, the plug is supposed to save extra wear and tear on the gun itself, ie., release extra pressure to the gun, allowing just enough to reliably operate the gun without beating it up. It basically works like a wastegate on a turbo.

If the auto plug causes higher powered ammo to eject noticeably further, then it's not working, period. You can install the factory plug, my plug, Tony's plug, or Tac 47s plug, set them for low brass and shoot that and high brass ammo through it and get exactly the same results.

 

 

FWIW, I have one test auto-plug in the field right now. It's in the hands of the person I know who shoots his S12 the most. I gave it to him for free, and told him to "use and abuse" it. I wante to know how well it worked with whatever he wanted to put through it, and how long it would take to clog up. So far, he tells me that low brass birdshot is working fine, and that high brass, 1oz. 1800fps slugs work fine, with the slug empties landing right next to the low brass empties. He's still adjusting it, turning it down, and it's working even better, as he tells me.

 

Will I make more? Maybe, but I'm waiting to see what happens with E-Tacs auto plug. I can't make them and sell them for $25, so, if his works, at that price, I won't bother.

 

 

For the sake of arguement we have three different rounds of birdshot, birdshot A is rated at 1300FPS, birdshot B is rated at 1250FPS, and birdshot C is rated at 1150FPS. So load up a magazine with birdshot A, B, & C select setting #3 which we would all agree is the setting we use for low brass birdshot. Dump the magazine. What happens? Do all three birdshot loads fall in the same area? Of course they don't because of the higher gas pressures of the different birdshot rounds. We see that some hulls fly further than others and we feel the increased recoil in our shoulders. Now if we can't expect three very similar birdshot rounds to land in the same place how are we going to expect rounds such as slugs and magnum loads to land in the same spot as a birdshot load? Again if your criteria for an autoplug is all hulls must land in the same area then the Tac47 ain't your plug. For me I will never shoot 3" magnum loads, I have no use for them and as stated I don't think these guns were designed for those types of rounds. As long as I can shoot mixed magazines without the bolt carrier slamming into the rear trunnion that is good enough for me.

I must not understand how a gas regulated plug works?

I thought If you set it to only allow a set amount of gas volume into the system, then every shell should be ejected with only that set volume of gas. All other gas should be relieved out the front and not be allowed into the system which would make all the different shells eject around the same spot and the felt recoil the same for all.

Explain to me how it works then.

A self regulating need a gas relief of some sort. Like a spring loaded pluger. The spring strength needs to be just right to not let any gas out for low brass but weak enough that higher power ammo will open it up to let out any extra. It's a tricky design considering all the ammo types out there. Has to be just right. The spring also needs to be a high temperture spring as well or after it gets hot a couple times it will lose it's strength.

 

In my opinion a good self regulating design should eject in a closer pattern with basically all ammo. Not saying high brass shouldn't go farther than low brass... I'm just saying I think high brass should fall no farther than the same as a PROPERLY gased gun, but should really fall a touch shorter in a good design being close to low power ammo.

 

As far as recoil reduction. A hard hitting shell will still hit pretty much as hard I would guess. It might be a little less but I am guessing the measurable amount wouldn't be any where close to the measurable relief on the rear trunion and other companents. I wonder too how much of the recoil may be coming from the bolt carrier slamming the rear trunion.

 

To really test the design it needs to be done with A LOT better testing methods than shipping them out here and there letting the consumer report. The tester needs to know exactly what is going on. No offense but send plugs out for testing and waiting for people to report, "yep, cycled everything I put in it...", just doesn't cut it because like Nate said the factory plug will do that right now on the high brass setting.

 

A good method to test would be... A very, very, very sturdy fixed mounted gun is a must. There is too much that varies with each shot when firing from the shoulder even from the same shooter. I am talking virtually no movement of the gun or mount when firing... A preasure meter in the block would be nice, a high speed camera would be great, and some pressure strips for the rear trunion would be a nice bonus. It needs to be done in many guns with varing gas systems and with many different ammo types. We are planning to do these very things with our manually set plug and compare to the factory plug. We also plan the same for our own self regulating design. Actually we are planning to test every plug design out there we can in this way and will be charting the results for everyone to compare. This way people will know exactly what each plug does with what rounds...

[SaigaKen 338]

Wow, just seeing this thread, so I think I missed something. I kind of get the gist of it, though.

The whole idea with gas regulation is to make the gun work with the same amount of force, despite the differences of force being supplied by the ammunition used. Whether or not the plug self-regulates or is regulated by hand, this is the end goal. The factory plug, and various aftermarket plugs achieve this in varying amounts of success.

If all you want is for the gun to work with everything, then just use the max setting on a regular plug, and never change it. It will work with just about all ammo types, until the gun cycles so fast that the mag cannot keep up. Of course, the higher pressure ammo will beat the shit out of the guns' internals, but it will work.

While I haven't watched the video linked here, but what I've been hearing, and what is suggested here, is that the auto plug allows shooting everything. However, without the equipment to actually measure the bolt carrier speed, the ejection distance is the best way we have to tell how hard the gun is cycling. It should be clear to everyone that the further the empty shell goes, the faster and harder the bolt carrier went rearward. It has also been clearly established that by changing the setting on the various plugs, that the ejection distance of a given ammo type can be reduced, even to the point of failure to eject on low-powered ammo.

Anybody who develops a self-regulating plug can say what they want, but ideally, the plug is supposed to save extra wear and tear on the gun itself, ie., release extra pressure to the gun, allowing just enough to reliably operate the gun without beating it up. It basically works like a wastegate on a turbo.

If the auto plug causes higher powered ammo to eject noticeably further, then it's not working, period. You can install the factory plug, my plug, Tony's plug, or Tac 47s plug, set them for low brass and shoot that and high brass ammo through it and get exactly the same results.

 

 

FWIW, I have one test auto-plug in the field right now. It's in the hands of the person I know who shoots his S12 the most. I gave it to him for free, and told him to "use and abuse" it. I wante to know how well it worked with whatever he wanted to put through it, and how long it would take to clog up. So far, he tells me that low brass birdshot is working fine, and that high brass, 1oz. 1800fps slugs work fine, with the slug empties landing right next to the low brass empties. He's still adjusting it, turning it down, and it's working even better, as he tells me.

 

Will I make more? Maybe, but I'm waiting to see what happens with E-Tacs auto plug. I can't make them and sell them for $25, so, if his works, at that price, I won't bother.

 

 

For the sake of arguement we have three different rounds of birdshot, birdshot A is rated at 1300FPS, birdshot B is rated at 1250FPS, and birdshot C is rated at 1150FPS. So load up a magazine with birdshot A, B, & C select setting #3 which we would all agree is the setting we use for low brass birdshot. Dump the magazine. What happens? Do all three birdshot loads fall in the same area? Of course they don't because of the higher gas pressures of the different birdshot rounds. We see that some hulls fly further than others and we feel the increased recoil in our shoulders. Now if we can't expect three very similar birdshot rounds to land in the same place how are we going to expect rounds such as slugs and magnum loads to land in the same spot as a birdshot load? Again if your criteria for an autoplug is all hulls must land in the same area then the Tac47 ain't your plug. For me I will never shoot 3" magnum loads, I have no use for them and as stated I don't think these guns were designed for those types of rounds. As long as I can shoot mixed magazines without the bolt carrier slamming into the rear trunnion that is good enough for me.

I must not understand how a gas regulated plug works?

I thought If you set it to only allow a set amount of gas volume into the system, then every shell should be ejected with only that set volume of gas. All other gas should be relieved out the front and not be allowed into the system which would make all the different shells eject around the same spot and the felt recoil the same for all.

Explain to me how it works then.

A self regulating need a gas relief of some sort. Like a spring loaded pluger. The spring strength needs to be just right to not let any gas out for low brass but weak enough that higher power ammo will open it up to let out any extra. It's a tricky design considering all the ammo types out there. Has to be just right. The spring also needs to be a high temperture spring as well or after it gets hot a couple times it will lose it's strength.

 

In my opinion a good self regulating design should eject in a closer pattern with basically all ammo. Not saying high brass shouldn't go farther than low brass... I'm just saying I think high brass should fall no farther than the same as a PROPERLY gased gun, but should really fall a touch shorter in a good design being close to low power ammo.

 

As far as recoil reduction. A hard hitting shell will still hit pretty much as hard I would guess. It might be a little less but I am guessing the measurable amount wouldn't be any where close to the measurable relief on the rear trunion and other companents. I wonder too how much of the recoil may be coming from the bolt carrier slamming the rear trunion.

 

To really test the design it needs to be done with A LOT better testing methods than shipping them out here and there letting the consumer report. The tester needs to know exactly what is going on. No offense but send plugs out for testing and waiting for people to report, "yep, cycled everything I put in it...", just doesn't cut it because like Nate said the factory plug will do that right now on the high brass setting.

 

A good method to test would be... A very, very, very sturdy fixed mounted gun is a must. There is too much that varies with each shot when firing from the shoulder even from the same shooter. I am talking virtually no movement of the gun or mount when firing... A preasure meter in the block would be nice, a high speed camera would be great, and some pressure strips for the rear trunion would be a nice bonus. It needs to be done in many guns with varing gas systems and with many different ammo types. We are planning to do these very things with our manually set plug and compare to the factory plug. We also plan the same for our own self regulating design. Actually we are planning to test every plug design out there we can in this way and will be charting the results for everyone to compare. This way people will know exactly what each plug does with what rounds...

 

Ahmen....then I'll be ready to spend some money.....

[Shadoh 16]

A working plug for me is one that cycles whatever ammo I feed it and doesnt damage my gun, PERIOD, no other debate necessary. Recoil will not be effected by a regulator because this gun uses a locking bolt system. As far as shells landing in a tight formation there are to many variables going on to even allow same brand/spec ammo from landing in a tight circle. Just changing the weight or length of the extracting shell can change where it lands. If you want go watch the slow motion videos that were posted on this site and watch how just about every shell coming out of the gun takes a different path than the one before it. Watch the latest full auto videos just posted today by Gunfixr, same thing, shells going all over the place. What is an acceptable circle size?

 

A regulated system not only has to deal with opening a valve at a certain pressure but also the speed and volume of that gas and pressure. There will be differences in that pressure wave between low and high powered shells. As long as the gun isnt damaged who cares where the shells fall on the ground?

 

The only test I need to see is does it cycle the ammo and is the bolt hitting the rear trunnion.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Shadoh

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Wow, just seeing this thread, so I think I missed something. I kind of get the gist of it, though.

The whole idea with gas regulation is to make the gun work with the same amount of force, despite the differences of force being supplied by the ammunition used. Whether or not the plug self-regulates or is regulated by hand, this is the end goal. The factory plug, and various aftermarket plugs achieve this in varying amounts of success.

If all you want is for the gun to work with everything, then just use the max setting on a regular plug, and never change it. It will work with just about all ammo types, until the gun cycles so fast that the mag cannot keep up. Of course, the higher pressure ammo will beat the shit out of the guns' internals, but it will work.

While I haven't watched the video linked here, but what I've been hearing, and what is suggested here, is that the auto plug allows shooting everything. However, without the equipment to actually measure the bolt carrier speed, the ejection distance is the best way we have to tell how hard the gun is cycling. It should be clear to everyone that the further the empty shell goes, the faster and harder the bolt carrier went rearward. It has also been clearly established that by changing the setting on the various plugs, that the ejection distance of a given ammo type can be reduced, even to the point of failure to eject on low-powered ammo.

Anybody who develops a self-regulating plug can say what they want, but ideally, the plug is supposed to save extra wear and tear on the gun itself, ie., release extra pressure to the gun, allowing just enough to reliably operate the gun without beating it up. It basically works like a wastegate on a turbo.

If the auto plug causes higher powered ammo to eject noticeably further, then it's not working, period. You can install the factory plug, my plug, Tony's plug, or Tac 47s plug, set them for low brass and shoot that and high brass ammo through it and get exactly the same results.

 

 

FWIW, I have one test auto-plug in the field right now. It's in the hands of the person I know who shoots his S12 the most. I gave it to him for free, and told him to "use and abuse" it. I wante to know how well it worked with whatever he wanted to put through it, and how long it would take to clog up. So far, he tells me that low brass birdshot is working fine, and that high brass, 1oz. 1800fps slugs work fine, with the slug empties landing right next to the low brass empties. He's still adjusting it, turning it down, and it's working even better, as he tells me.

 

Will I make more? Maybe, but I'm waiting to see what happens with E-Tacs auto plug. I can't make them and sell them for $25, so, if his works, at that price, I won't bother.

 

Well I've been busy and just saw this thread so I missed what was said earlier, but this ^ and what Bob said makes the most sense to me. If the low powered shells and the high powered shells end up even remotely in the same area after ejection (with the gun held the same each time), then the auto plug is doing what it's supposed to do. Obviously, without a real self regulated gas bleed off, a heavier loaded shell is going to send the bolt carrier back a lot harder than a low recoil shell, resulting in the ejector kicking the empty hull out with more force. Sounds to me like that's what Tony was saying. In this kind of "test", that's really about all you have to go on. That said I do realize that this was basically you just demonstrating it.

 

Like Mike said, a real test will need to be done under controlled conditions if we are to see detailed feedback regarding the actual function of the plug and just how well it may perform compared to others. All it is really is a pressure release valve. Something like that can be extremely consistant, or not. I'm waiting now on an auto plug from Estaban so I guess that's the first one I'll get to try out and see how well it works in my own guns. I'm looking forward to comparing some. The actual shooter is the one feeling the recoil and seeing what different rounds do during and after firing.

[epbullen 21]

If the auto plug causes higher powered ammo to eject noticeably further, then it's not working, period.

 

 

This!^^^

 

 

As long as the gun isnt damaged who cares where the shells fall on the ground?

 

 

 

Maybe the guy in the shooting lane to your right. Joking aside, I agree. As long as it cycles ALL types of ammo and does not damage the gun I say hell yeah.

[Bridis 319]

Here's a good question. At least I think so.... Will the TAC 47 autoplug function ok with a reduced tension recoil spring?

 

I will test it as soon as I get my new plug.

[epbullen 21]

A good method to test would be... A very, very, very sturdy fixed mounted gun is a must. There is too much that varies with each shot when firing from the shoulder even from the same shooter. I am talking virtually no movement of the gun or mount when firing... A preasure meter in the block would be nice, a high speed camera would be great, and some pressure strips for the rear trunion would be a nice bonus.

 

 

If there isn't one by the time I receive my plug in the mail and put it into action, I'll make a video with my own S-12 that includes most of these points.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Bullensmash

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Here's what I know, when high pressure is involved things get tricky. This is one of the main reasons I've not developed a self regulator, to much time and money in testing and then you would have to sell it really cheap. I did concept a testing device for checking the full range of pressures involved with this application, but like all special purpose equipment, its costly! Saying you can judge the pressure by how far the shells go, is like finding water with a tuning fork If you can accurately measure the force in the gas system, then you can truly adjust your design accordingly. Some people have a good instinct for these things and can get really close without instrumentation, but these are usually people who have long periods of exposure to those fields of interest. I don't know how this unit will or will not regulate, but its cool someone is trying and for $25.00, shit that's a cheap box of wally world shells.

[tonyhunt 15]

Two thoughts:

Can the difference in weight in hulls affect how far they are thrown?

 

I know the gun is gas operated but can recoil also affect how far hulls are thrown?

I think it would make sense that even though it's getting the same amount of gas, the extra recoil would cause highbrass to fly farther.

[Devildogxd 2]

I guess the bottom line is to simply fire enough rounds that would normally damage the weapon, take the gun apart and inspect the trunion. If there is no damage that viola it works! Seems simple enough to me.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Here's what I know, when high pressure is involved things get tricky. This is one of the main reasons I've not developed a self regulator, to much time and money in testing and then you would have to sell it really cheap. I did concept a testing device for checking the full range of pressures involved with this application, but like all special purpose equipment, its costly! Saying you can judge the pressure by how far the shells go, is like finding water with a tuning fork If you can accurately measure the force in the gas system, then you can truly adjust your design accordingly. Some people have a good instinct for these things and can get really close without instrumentation, but these are usually people who have long periods of exposure to those fields of interest. I don't know how this unit will or will not regulate, but its cool someone is trying and for $25.00, shit that's a cheap box of wally world shells.

 

$25? Not today.... Winchester Universal and Federal Multi-purpose were both $20.97 I left with 500 rounds of Federal I've never fired anything other than Winchester Universal in my 3 S12s. Now that I have them running well on the Universal, it's time to try something slightly better. I'm curious to see how this auto-regulator pans out. I may buy a few if the feedback is good.

Edited August 25, 2010 by evlblkwpnz