Specialty & AP pistol cartridges

[dreadknight 8]

I'm new to this forum (posted a few times last year), and I've recently joined a bunch of forums in my effort to reach out to anyone who is interested in what I am interested in: special-purpose gadgety pistol ammo. The weird stuff with odd tips; exploders, multiball, darts, cutters, slicer, dicers, expanders, plastics & teflon. I have an extensive history in collecting & researching and a large collection. I'm with the International Ammunition Association (IAA), and I have written a book on the topic of pistol-caliber armor piercing ammo which is my main point of collecting. Below are pics of the stuff I collect; a reference sheet I made for pistol-caliber AP ammo, a box of mixed caliber specialty ammo, and a box of 9mm specialty ammo. Please ask questions or let me know if you are interested in collecting this stuff as well.

 

 

 

 

 

KTW Teflon, American Ballistics, National Cartridge, Alia armor piercing, Omnishock, Geco Metal piercing, Remingotn Hi-way master, Peters Highway patrol, SIB armor piercing, Arcane 9mm, VBR ammo, SCMITR, GEA Cyclone, 7.62x25 API, ALPHA 9mm, CBAP 9mm, ANSB, Libra Snail, M39/B, 6.5x25 CBJ, PPS MSC, 224 VOB, 223 timbs, Magsafe, Beehive, armscor strike 3, equalloy, hydrashok, village metalworks safe stop, multiball, kawser pingrabber, kawser pin grabber, velet exploder, velex exploder, FXlabs, D&D omega star, Thunderzap, BBM hardcap, cobra gun HSA, Hirtenberger EMB, DAG Action-3, simunition, Aguila IQ, Triton quick shok, Hi Vel Hypersonic, Mesko Hornet, Mesko Mosquito, Mesko Wasp, XM261, KTW 22 pokey, etc...

[Azrial 1,091]

Very Pretty, makes me think of Christmas!

 

I have carried the Arcane, Geco and KTW's. I remember my KTWs as .357 Magnums with a Green Teflon coating and some as you have here. I have some of them stuffed in an old "Ammo Wallet" somewhere.

 

While not technically AP, I still carry the old Glaser Safety Slug in my .44 Bulldog. I have a case of the 7.62x25mm Type 64s. I would love to build an M1 Carbine to use them in!

 

Thanks for the informative post and welcome back!

[chevyman097 2,579]

That is interesting. Do you have info on each type of ammo, what its particular purpose/use or other info is. Would be very intereting read.

[308SAIGA 55]

Very nice and weird ammo collection you have their..... I do have a question: It is my understanding that in many States, including Florida, it is illegal to even posses this type of ammo (handgun caliber), am I wrong in thinking this? Thanks for sharing and any info you may give....

[going12220 125]

cool collection,

for me everytime I sit down at my press is a new load of not so much specialty but more Mystery Ammo

[nalioth 405]

Very nice and weird ammo collection you have their..... I do have a question: It is my understanding that in many States, including Florida, it is illegal to even posses this type of ammo (handgun caliber), am I wrong in thinking this? Thanks for sharing and any info you may give....

Possession is not a crime.

 

Sales of "armor piercing pistol ammo" by licensed dealers is.

Edited September 14, 2010 by nalioth

[dreadknight 8]

Chevyman097 - I have a list made up of what all the cartridges are for the middle photo of multi-caliber cartridges located here: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Handgun_Ammo_FAQnRules/ExoticHandgunAmmo.htm Apart from that, it might take along while to describe every one in detail, I could tell you more about a specific one, or any of the AP cartridges will have full info listed in my reference book "Pistol Caliber Penetrators".

 

308saiga - There are a handful of states which have restrictions regarding pistol-caliber Armor piercing ammo, but not many states have laws restricting any other kind of pistol ammo. I know California and maybe 1 or 2 others have laws about incendiary ammo, of which there are a few types in pistol calibers as made by Jim Haak of Northern Arizona Munitions, and sold by people like Ammotogo etc... Florida does have a law restricting some pistol-caliber AP ammo (statute #790.31), but oddly enough it only restricts solid core, or solid monolithic bullets which are truncated in shape. Obviously there are a great deal of AP pistol projectiles that are round nose, and this law was originally only geared towards KTW loads. CA, IL, TX, and Wash D.C. are the only ones with true possession bans on pistol caliber AP (don't ask me why TX is on the list - I am told they don't enforce anyway), while FL, NJ, KY, and RI have near-bans as well. Most of these laws are long forgotten and never enforced with officers not even being aware of them when it comes to gun & cartridge shows or other legal endeavors. It's only when they catch a criminal doing something else illegal and he happens to have this ammo does it occur to them to bring additional charges based on the AP ammo in these states (which is practically never).

 

It's easiest for me just to show this map which I made explaining pistol-AP state laws:

 

 

The federal law enacted in 1986 only restricts the commercial importation of, or commercial manufacture of such cartridges by those who do not have an FFL 10 or FFL 11 license, and it also prevents licensed dealers from selling such cartridges to anyone other than law enforcement or government.

 

For more info you can refer to my lengthy answer about federal and state law at this forum post for the full run down (post #14):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=541901

Edited September 14, 2010 by dreadknight

[Eric Pate 478]

Neato. Thanks for sharing. I remember hearing alot about those KTW loads but have never seen em.

[308SAIGA 55]

 

Possession is not a crime.

 

Sales of "armor piercing pistol ammo" by licensed dealers is.

 

Interesting, I thought I had read it was, this is just one example....

 

IC 35-47-5-11

"Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" defined; related offenses

Sec. 11. (a) As used in this section, "armor-piercing handgun ammunition" means a cartridge that:

(1) can be fired in a handgun; and

(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.

( A person who knowingly or intentionally:

(1) manufactures;

(2) possesses;

(3) transfers possession of; or

(4) offers to transfer possession of;

armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony.

© This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.

(d) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells armor-piercing handgun ammunition to a law enforcement agency.

As added by P.L.332-1983, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.327-1987, SEC.2.

 

 

Like I said some/most States it is illegal to even posses handgun AP ammo.....

[dreadknight 8]

308saiga - You have to be careful reading those state laws. That law that you show, IC-35-47-5-11 is the Indiana law, and it defines the cartridges it is talking about as only those coated with "plastic" (Teflon). This basically only applies to KTW loads, which is what so many of these pointless state laws were about in the early 90's when attention-hungry anti-gun liberals were sponsoring the bills. Many of the state laws seem to indicate that all is banned, or that no purchasing is legal etc, etc... but when you sift through the details, and check the definitions part of the laws you often find that the law only applies when such cartridges are utilized by a criminal during the course of a crime, and so the law means that only additional charges might be brought. Leaving law-abiding citizens free to collect, and purchase.

 

I half wonder if they made the laws sound imposing and menacing so as to make people think they were a ban, when really they often have no teeth. The only states with real bans are CA, IL, TX, and Wash D.C. A few others have partial bans, but my experience has been that these states essentially don't enforce - ever. I have seen many Gunbroker auctions offering the most common 9mm AP load (German WWII 08m.E. steel core) out of the state of California, but nobody ever stops the auction, and I have emailed these sellers whenever I see them doing it and they don't know or care. So if California isn't even checking the screamingly obvious online auctions for such violations in their own state, then we have little to fear.

 

The following states have what I call "pseudo AP laws", that is, laws which only refer to criminals committing crimes with such ammo being a crime (stupid redundant laws): LA, ME, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NV, NH, NY, PA, TN, VA, and WI. Remember, those are all essentially non-laws, they don't apply to anyone, except if you go rob a bank or shoot someone using such ammo, then you are subject to further penalty, but if you get caught in those instances, it's kind of moot.

 

The map above is a good guide.

Edited September 14, 2010 by dreadknight

[nalioth 405]

 

Possession is not a crime.

 

Sales of "armor piercing pistol ammo" by licensed dealers is.

 

Interesting, I thought I had read it was, this is just one example....

 

IC 35-47-5-11

"Armor-piercing handgun ammunition" defined; related offenses

Sec. 11. (a) As used in this section, "armor-piercing handgun ammunition" means a cartridge that:

(1) can be fired in a handgun; and

(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.

( A person who knowingly or intentionally:

(1) manufactures;

(2) possesses;

(3) transfers possession of; or

(4) offers to transfer possession of;

armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony.

© This section does not apply to nylon coated ammunition, plastic shot capsules, or ammunition designed to be used in rifles or shotguns.

(d) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells armor-piercing handgun ammunition to a law enforcement agency.

As added by P.L.332-1983, SEC.1. Amended by P.L.327-1987, SEC.2.

 

 

Like I said some/most States it is illegal to even posses handgun AP ammo.....

Did you not even read what you wrote?

 

(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.

<-- As mentioned by dreadknight, this affects one AP design (out of thousands). It doesn't affect military steel cored ammo (oft misnomered as "armor piercing") or even actual military AP ammo.

It only affects plastic coated (excluding nylon) bullets (with any core material, so long as it's of "metal").

[Bean.223 365]

Nice collection!!

[dreadknight 8]

Yeah, it gets annoying to try and decode sometimes, because the laws are worded so poorly. One thing the laws often do is use the general term "armor piercing ammunition", and unless you read the definitions section which can sometimes be separate from the law itself, you wouldn't know. I think 308saiga knew it was handgun only, just not that it was only plastic-coated (Teflon). Who knows, the laws are essentially a waste of time, I just wrote a book and spent 30 pages breaking it all down for the state law section alone. The other 230 pages are about the actual ammo.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

308saiga - You have to be careful reading those state laws. That law that you show, IC-35-47-5-11 is the Indiana law, and it defines the cartridges it is talking about as only those coated with "plastic" (Teflon). This basically only applies to KTW loads, which is what so many of these pointless state laws were about in the early 90's when attention-hungry anti-gun liberals were sponsoring the bills. Many of the state laws seem to indicate that all is banned, or that no purchasing is legal etc, etc... but when you sift through the details, and check the definitions part of the laws you often find that the law only applies when such cartridges are utilized by a criminal during the course of a crime, and so the law means that only additional charges might be brought. Leaving law-abiding citizens free to collect, and purchase.

 

I half wonder if they made the laws sound imposing and menacing so as to make people think they were a ban, when really they often have no teeth. The only states with real bans are CA, IL, TX, and Wash D.C. A few others have partial bans, but my experience has been that these states essentially don't enforce - ever. I have seen many Gunbroker auctions offering the most common 9mm AP load (German WWII 08m.E. steel core) out of the state of California, but nobody ever stops the auction, and I have emailed these sellers whenever I see them doing it and they don't know or care. So if California isn't even checking the screamingly obvious online auctions for such violations in their own state, then we have little to fear.

 

The following states have what I call "pseudo AP laws", that is, laws which only refer to criminals committing crimes with such ammo being a crime (stupid redundant laws): LA, ME, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NV, NH, NY, PA, TN, VA, and WI. Remember, those are all essentially non-laws, they don't apply to anyone, except if you go rob a bank or shoot someone using such ammo, then you are subject to further penalty, but if you get caught in those instances, it's kind of moot.

 

The map above is a good guide.

Interesting and informative posts! Good to know about some of those laws! You have a pretty expansive collection.

[308SAIGA 55]

 

Did you not even read what you wrote?

 

(2) will, upon firing, expel a projectile that has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.

<-- As mentioned by dreadknight, this affects one AP design (out of thousands). It doesn't affect military steel cored ammo (oft misnomered as "armor piercing") or even actual military AP ammo.

It only affects plastic coated (excluding nylon) bullets (with any core material, so long as it's of "metal").

 

Did you bother reading the rest? That was part 1 now read part 2....

 

(*B*) A person who knowingly or intentionally:

(1) manufactures;

(2) possesses;

(3) transfers possession of; or

(4) offers to transfer possession of;

armor-piercing handgun ammunition commits a Class C felony.

 

Hey I do not care one way or the other, it is not my ass going to be in a sling..... We all know how the Feds love to interpret the law....

 

Good Luck

[chevyman097 2,579]

Yeah, it gets annoying to try and decode sometimes, because the laws are worded so poorly. One thing the laws often do is use the general term "armor piercing ammunition", and unless you read the definitions section which can sometimes be separate from the law itself, you wouldn't know. I think 308saiga knew it was handgun only, just not that it was only plastic-coated (Teflon). Who knows, the laws are essentially a waste of time, I just wrote a book and spent 30 pages breaking it all down for the state law section alone. The other 230 pages are about the actual ammo.

 

Any ideas when your book will be published? or are you even publishing it...etc. However you are going about it.

[madmax4x4 68]

I want a poster!

[dreadknight 8]

Any ideas when your book will be published? or are you even publishing it...etc. However you are going about it.

 

 

The book has already had it's first edition of sorts published. I printed about 40 hardcovers using Staples "ambassador bind" service, and around 40 soft covers. I'm going to print another 20 this month, and then eventually get the whole thing uploaded to lulu.com for online on-demand publishing which can be linked through Amazon, and which will make the whole thing allot easier. Here are some images of the book:

 

 

[chevyman097 2,579]

That is really freakin cool man. Im not a hand loader or interested in the sort. But I find things like this very cool reading material.

[crackback 135]

1.) How much is a copy?

 

2.) Would you consider doing a book on rifle AP or shotgun exotic loads?

 

3.) How long did it take and how difficult was it to acquire your collection?

Edited September 15, 2010 by 690gr

[Casp 119]

Yes, how much? I'm DEFINITELY down for one.

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Holy #@%&, what a hobby. That has to be one of the coolest collections that I have seen in a long time. Thanks for posting the pics and information.

[dreadknight 8]

I'll respond to some of you personally so as not appear like a yard-sale free-for-all in this thread where sales probably don't belong. Traditionally, the books have been about $70 which isn't much over my cost, and remember it has 60 full color pages, and is hardcover.

 

690gr - I could do a book on rifle & shotgun specialty loads, but it would not be nearly as thorough as my book on pistol AP ammo. This is because although I do have a decent collection of rifle AP ammo, and specialty shotgun loads, it is very incomplete as compared to my pistol AP collection. I am actually working on another book for specialty & oddball pistol cartridges which are not AP - all the other specialty load types that is. it should be ready in about 1 year from now. As for shotgun & rifle loads, I wouldn't be able to get into that for years, and it would be too huge since there is a withering array of specialty rifle loads from military stuff. The 30-06 alone has many variations, as outlined in Chris Punnett's book "30-06".

 

So far it has taken me about 5 years to get this collection together. It really only depends on time & money, and how passionately you are into it. I've cultivated allot of relationships with other collectors to get to where I am, and I have more to go yet. It's sort of difficult because it is time consuming, and much depends on who you know, when you know them, and luck. Some odd things I have found on Gunbroker, others were given to me, and one or two items I have paid over $125 a piece for for rare AP cartridges from collectors. A couple pictures of my collection drawers below, just partial shots of it anyway:

 

 

 

 

Below is a shot of my pistol AP ammo display at the last St Louis ammo show, and a shot of some of the types of cartridges which I pick up when I'm there:

 

 

Edited September 15, 2010 by dreadknight

[G O B 3,516]

Just - WOW!

[clifton 354]

I like it///

[belt fed frog 56]

what is the little mortar bomb shaped cartridge in the top row ,middle of the bottom drawer in the fist two pictures ???

[dreadknight 8]

what is the little mortar bomb shaped cartridge in the top row ,middle of the bottom drawer in the fist two pictures ???

 

I'm not sure which one you mean? What color is it, and what is it next to? I don't think I have any cartridges shaped like that, but it might be an illusion of two cartridges together, or one cartridge which might have a duplicate projectile pulled and sitting just above it?

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Wow, that is some interesting stuff. Never even seen most of it.

 

My girl looked over from a ways away and saw the pics and said "Are you looking at lipstick? ".

[Afrikaner 2]

I carried a mix of rounds in my 1911 many years ago. 1 round PMP HP and 1 round of some kind of high velocity round. I forgot the name of it, but it had a blue plastic cap to make it feed, if you pried the cap off, it looked like a Tungsten penetrator rod in a flat metal base of some sort. Kind of like that 0mm SVAT round up top. It was a weird one, but it did penetrate much better than the standard .45 stuff. Never had to use it, but tested it on some junk cars.

[dreadknight 8]

1 round PMP HP and 1 round of some kind of high velocity round. I forgot the name of it, but it had a blue plastic cap to make it feed, if you pried the cap off, it looked like a Tungsten penetrator rod in a flat metal base of some sort.

 

Sounds like you were carrying some South African loads there. The one with the blue nose cap was called a Sentry, aka Eliminator by NGA. It was an aluminum alloy slug with a funny looking tip that's supposed to be a high velocity safety bullet which would impart maximum energy into the target without over-penetrating or hitting anything behind the target. It was designed by a South African named Andre van Dyk, and he made some very cool pistol loads for PMP before leaving that company and starting New Generations Ammuntiion (NGA) around 1993. When he was at PMP he designed a pistol bullet which was intended to be a penetrator called the Monad which was based on the French THV. The Elliminator / Sentry loads are based on the design of these Monads. At close range the Sentry was a good penetrator due to being light weight, but it lost energy fast at longer ranges. It usually can't penetrate Kevlar for example. The nose cap was just to improve feeding in auto pistols. Below is a photo of the bullet with red cap:

 

Here's some various loads (no, the black capped one is not an AP load):

 

And here is what one of the bullets looks like after being fired and impacting wet newsprint paper:

Edited October 4, 2010 by dreadknight