Real world field test w/ x39 on deer

[jimmyhayes 11]

I decided to use my saiga x39 this year for deer hunting. Wolf 123gr.hp ammo open sites, I did try a side mounted scope pre season but it would not hold zero as the mounting screws continually loosened till I gave up and decided on the open site (front site painted white) The first problem with this set up was the target deer at around 275yds with the naked eye, the deer appeared to be a spec, with the rifle on target the deer disappeared so the only shot I had was an educated guess with a lot of hopeful luck!!!The first shot did hit home but didn't drop the deer, I'm guessing it hit because the two follow up shots didn't cause the deer to bolt. He did eventually move a short distance and laid down so I moved in closer for a better dispatch shot, when I was still about 150yds away he got up and started moving further down hill which I couldn't afford because I was alone and it was about a mile back to the jeep and I'm well over 50yrs old so I knew I would have a very hard time getting him out. I sent two more shots both of which were difficult to say the least because of the open sites, I did hit him again though, and he laid down out of site this time. When I got to the last known area I heard a him breathing with a very labored lung, I moved around a very large stump and there he was about 4ft away so I pulled up and shot at the base of his scull and it was over. Way to much to put any animal through!! When I did get him home I retrieved the dispatch shot and the results were horrible the hollow point had only laid over, the jacket only slightly peeled and the core was nearly completely intact, unacceptable!!!! A good hunting round should mushroom just after impact and devastate to death. So in conclusion the 7.62x39 will do the job If a proper round of ammo is used and if, either your eyes are better than mine or you have proper optics attached to your gun. Check out the pics and notice the lose of hair from dragging that deer about a mile. He weighed in at 130lbs. subtract hide,head&horns,meat cut away from a badly angled shot that clipped the guts and I ended up with 85lbs hanging in the butchers cooler. If I would have used a traditional hunting rifle and scope I would have had more venison to eat this year and would have saved a deer much suffering.

[imarangemaster 315]

Fortier's testr were much the same for hollow point Russian ammo. The Wolf and Bear Soft point mushroomed within 4 inches to 2X+ diameter.

[t3mac21 1]

I bought remington soft point for whitetail. I'll probably only take it out once or twice.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

You started firing at the deer near the outside of the caliber's effective range, using ammunition that was never designed for hunting, (the way soft point ammo is), with simple factory "notch and post" irons. I'd say everything performed about as well as can be expected.

 

If you're unsatisified with the results, I don't see why you blame your tools, rather than yourself.

 

If you want the animal to suffer less and to get more usable meat from the carcass, get a decent optic on the rifle and use soft point ammo next time.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

ETA: it's not as though the ballistics performance of JHP 7.62x39 ammunition is some kind of mystery:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGrq1oP37LI&feature=related

Edited October 19, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[BrutalGardener 205]

Were these the "black box" Wolf HPs or the Military Classic? I read that the Military Classic variety uses a newly designed Russian bullet, which fragments and tumbles in a devastating way.

 

I don't mean to be an ass, but shooting deer with a 7.62x39 mm AK, using iron sights at 275 yards, seems just a tad bit unethical to me.

 

I've used my Saiga for hunting, but it was in an area where you are not likely to get a shot past 100 yards. I shot a deer at 75 yards using a Silver Bear SP. It went a bit to the left of where I intended and hit a shoulder, shattering it and exploding fragments into the heart and lungs. The critter still ran for about 25 yards, but then fell and kicked the bucket very fast.

Edited October 19, 2010 by SpetsnazGRU

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Thanks for posting the info. Also a big +1 to you for being both honest and a good sportsman.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

I don't mean to be an ass, but shooting deer with a 7.62x39 mm AK, using iron sights at 275 yards, seems just a tad bit unethical to me.

 

I feel the distance, ammo choice and rifle were indeed unethical. However he was honest about things and acknowledged this, and shared his findings with other people here in the hopes that no one else does that. He even said that's "too much to put any animal through" so for that I would say he is a good sportsman and not hold his original choice against him.

[BrutalGardener 205]

I don't mean to be an ass, but shooting deer with a 7.62x39 mm AK, using iron sights at 275 yards, seems just a tad bit unethical to me.

 

I feel the distance, ammo choice and rifle were indeed unethical. However he was honest about things and acknowledged this, and shared his findings with other people here in the hopes that no one else does that. He even said that's "too much to put any animal through" so for that I would say he is a good sportsman and not hold his original choice against him.

 

Yeah. I agree with that.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Nice pics. I would have also chose different ammo!

[jimmyhayes 11]

I appreciate all the feed back and all is taken to heart. Honestly I expected the fodder to perform like a typical hollow point, my mistake! And it won't happen again as I will be using a more traditional firearm and ammo next year. But all else aside what I chose to use for my own personal reasons accomplished the task in a purely pathetic manner. It only proves it can be done. The Magnificent Bastard summed up my feelings exactly after the fact and all was said and done I thought, I should have used the soft point ammo.This was my first hunt after taking an 8yr. break from the sport and poor choices and stupidity have crept into my planning. But I will not make the same mistake twice!!!!

[imarangemaster 315]

Wise man. We ALL make mistakes (even Big Sal, occasionally I bet) but wise men learn from them. If I had not read Fortier's article about the awesome performance of the SPs and dismal performance of the HPs, I may have made the same ammo mistake. I would be comfortable with deer at 200 yards, anything past 100 using a scope, since my old eyes suck.

 

There was a thread awhile back about someone using HP ammo on wild boar. It was not Wolf, but some white box stuff if I remember correctly. It was devastating. I think that is the ammo referred to in the mother post.

[my762buzz 141]

I should have used the soft point ammo.

 

 

 

[BrutalGardener 205]

I appreciate all the feed back and all is taken to heart. Honestly I expected the fodder to perform like a typical hollow point, my mistake! And it won't happen again as I will be using a more traditional firearm and ammo next year. But all else aside what I chose to use for my own personal reasons accomplished the task in a purely pathetic manner. It only proves it can be done. The Magnificent Bastard summed up my feelings exactly after the fact and all was said and done I thought, I should have used the soft point ammo.This was my first hunt after taking an 8yr. break from the sport and poor choices and stupidity have crept into my planning. But I will not make the same mistake twice!!!!

 

So, was it Wolf "black box" or Military Classic? They are supposed to have different performance. I've read that Military Classic HPs are supposed to be pretty devastating. Perhaps the bullets didn't expand or fragments due to the long range?

[my762buzz 141]

I appreciate all the feed back and all is taken to heart. Honestly I expected the fodder to perform like a typical hollow point, my mistake! And it won't happen again as I will be using a more traditional firearm and ammo next year. But all else aside what I chose to use for my own personal reasons accomplished the task in a purely pathetic manner. It only proves it can be done. The Magnificent Bastard summed up my feelings exactly after the fact and all was said and done I thought, I should have used the soft point ammo.This was my first hunt after taking an 8yr. break from the sport and poor choices and stupidity have crept into my planning. But I will not make the same mistake twice!!!!

 

So, was it Wolf "black box" or Military Classic? They are supposed to have different performance. I've read that Military Classic HPs are supposed to be pretty devastating. Perhaps the bullets didn't expand or fragments due to the long range?

The wolf black box does not open much at close range. Its the closest to FMJ of any russian hp.

Military Classic hp with the real 8m3(124 grain) hollow points opens up the most of any russian ammo period and even at 200 yards it just mushrooms like a soft point through wet news paper.

8m3 at 100 on the left and 200 on the right.

Edited October 19, 2010 by my762buzz

[my762buzz 141]

When I did get him home I retrieved the dispatch shot and the results were horrible the hollow point had only laid over, the jacket only slightly peeled and the core was nearly completely intact, unacceptable!!!!

 

Did you not find any of the 275 yard impact bullets? At that distance, they would have been a bit over 1500 fps which is more like pistol velocity.

[RobRez 1,895]

Well Kudos to you for having the stones to post your hunting mishap and share the info! I have been skeptical of the 7.62x39 for hunting.I may try it at 100 yds or less, but I figure I have a Deer rifle already so I will be sticking with that this year. Kind of a "Ain't Broke don't fix it" sort of thing for me.Thanks for sharing this story.

[jimmyhayes 11]

OK if anyone picks up on this post again here is the answer to the ammo brand question. I feel really stupid saying this but what the hell I'm not much for pride. It was not wolf ammo it was brown bear. I bought it from cheaper than dirt.com they had pics of some impressive mushrooming by the hollow points so I bought it. There were no other bullets recovered the lung shot passed clean through leaving a tiny exit wound? What the ammo was supposed to do and what it did were two exact opposites! I've taken a fair amount of dear and bear in my time of hunting and have never encountered anything like this, but this was the first time I used a non traditional firearm and ammo. I believe with the right optics and ammo the deer would have dropped on the first shot since I would have been able to place the shot exactly where I wanted which I've done numerous times before. But anyway that's the whole skinny.

[my762buzz 141]

OK if anyone picks up on this post again here is the answer to the ammo brand question. I feel really stupid saying this but what the hell I'm not much for pride. It was not wolf ammo it was brown bear. I bought it from cheaper than dirt.com they had pics of some impressive mushrooming by the hollow points so I bought it. There were no other bullets recovered the lung shot passed clean through leaving a tiny exit wound? What the ammo was supposed to do and what it did were two exact opposites! I've taken a fair amount of dear and bear in my time of hunting and have never encountered anything like this, but this was the first time I used a non traditional firearm and ammo. I believe with the right optics and ammo the deer would have dropped on the first shot since I would have been able to place the shot exactly where I wanted which I've done numerous times before. But anyway that's the whole skinny.

 

All russian hollow points are not the same. See video below. shot 1 Brown bear hp then shot 2 military classic hp (8m3)

Of all the cheap russian ammo, the military classic 8m3 hp is going to open up the most and even at 200 yards that is probably its thresh hold limit for decent expansion according to the old thread at theakforum where the mushrooming picture of 8m3 with a 200 yard impact of wet newpaper is shown.

Beyond 200 yards, most anything softpoint in 7.62x39 will have a hard time expanding.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[Paulry 50]

Thanks for your well written essay! Glad you got your deer.

 

But seriously, who the hell shoots at deer with a 7.62x39 past 200 yards (make that past 150)? Don't take this wrong as I've done crazy and stupid things. I appreciate your concern for the suffering of the animal.

 

I have to agree with Post and his assessment of the outcome.

 

Frosty

[superA 289]

Thanks for your well written essay! Glad you got your deer.

 

But seriously, who the hell shoots at deer with a 7.62x39 past 200 yards (make that past 150)? Don't take this wrong as I've done crazy and stupid things. I appreciate your concern for the suffering of the animal.

 

I have to agree with Post and his assessment of the outcome.

 

Frosty

 

 

 

At 200 yards the 7.62x39 has 850-1000 pounds of energy left. More than enough to put a deer done ethically.

[csspecs 1,987]

I found the same thing with the wolf and brown bear HPs. Darn things don't always open. The bi-metal (steel) jacket is to hard to open. There are brass jacketed x39 rounds that are sold by wolf, they will likely work better.

 

 

The soft points are better, and are acceptable for hunting.

 

And yes get a scope, the irons are to big for deer hunting.

[308SAIGA 55]

I found the same thing with the wolf and brown bear HPs. Darn things don't always open. The bi-metal (steel) jacket is to hard to open. There are brass jacketed x39 rounds that are sold by wolf, they will likely work better.

 

 

The soft points are better, and are acceptable for hunting.

 

And yes get a scope, the irons are to big for deer hunting.

 

Beautifully said... Just want to add reload your own.....

[Bug Splat 2]

Great info guys. Just placed an order for a few hundred Classic HP rounds. Didn't know classic and black box were so different. I don't plan on hunting with it but for Zombies, I want the better of the two.

[my762buzz 141]

I'm not intentionally flaming anyone specifically, however, I can't get over how people are willing to spend a few bucks on a good hunting bullet in some other caliber like .270 or .30-06 but if they decide to use 7.62x39 they use the cheapest

they can get by with and then complain it does not perform like their .270 with the $2-3 american made softpoints.

This is sort of similar to how so and so shoots shoots his custom match grade $3000 AR15 with handloaded match ammo and then compared it to

a WASR 10 with cheap russian ammo and then ultimately makes the blanket statement that all AK platform rifles are inherently minute of barndoor and

all AR15 platform rifles are laser beam accurate period. I just think some folks can't draw a fair comparision.

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[my762buzz 141]

Great info guys. Just placed an order for a few hundred Classic HP rounds. Didn't know classic and black box were so different. I don't plan on hunting with it but for Zombies, I want the better of the two.

 

Did you order the 124 hp? Classic 8m3 hp 124 gr has been used for a couple of years but recently wolf made some changes and I have not seen the latest batches.

If they are 124 gr then I would bet it stayed the same.

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[my762buzz 141]

 

At 200 yards the 7.62x39 has 850-1000 pounds of energy left. More than enough to put a deer done ethically.

 

The problem is getting a softpoint that will actually work well at 200 yards below 1800 fps.

I suppose drilling a hole in a softpoint will help expansion at sub 1800 fps but impractical.

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[jimmyhayes 11]

The nice thing about site's like this is the open forum where the novice and the expert can have an open discussion and maybe both can learn something new

[superA 289]

 

At 200 yards the 7.62x39 has 850-1000 pounds of energy left. More than enough to put a deer done ethically.

 

The problem is getting a softpoint that will actually work well at 200 yards below 1800 fps.

I suppose drilling a hole in a softpoint will help expansion at sub 1800 fps but impractical.

 

 

 

Ah, that's a good point. I wonder how far out the good stuff will expand. Vmax might be nice.

 

I'm not intentionally flaming anyone specifically, however, I can't get over how people are willing to spend a few bucks on a good hunting bullet in some other caliber like .270 or .30-06 but if they decide to use 7.62x39 they use the cheapest

they can get by with and then complain it does not perform like their .270 with the $2-3 american made softpoints.

This is sort of similar to how so and so shoots shoots his custom match grade $3000 AR15 with handloaded match ammo and then compared it to

a WASR 10 with cheap russian ammo and then ultimately makes the blanket statement that all AK platform rifles are inherently minute of barndoor and

all AR15 platform rifles are laser beam accurate period. I just think some folks can't draw a fair comparision.

 

 

 

I agree, for hunting go ahead and spend twenty bucks. It should last years anyway.

[my762buzz 141]

If Hornady ever gets around to using their superformance technology in 7.62x39, then we may see 200 fps faster loads operating at standard pressure.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[jimmyhayes 11]

I found a good deal on used reloading equipment at my local gun store today, I have done some reloading years ago for a .358 win. and .308 the results were very surprising when the exact bullet seat was adjusted to fit an individual firearm along with specific grains of powder to maximize velocity with accuracy. I was able to go from under 1" groups @ 100yds to one ragged hole @ the same distance. Reloading is something I've always wanted to resume now I have all the more reason to do so. I'll be using a .308 next year and have been looking at the rem.700 but I admit the commercial m-98's have always been my favorite with the savage 110 style right behind. Don't laugh I've found both these rifle's to be very accurate and reliable. The savage isn't much to look at but the Mauser m-98 from the F-N factory is a real thing of beauty.