Dilemma; Which Cartridge

[Sev 0]

So, for Christmas I bought myself a new Saiga in x39 with a 20 Inch barrel. I have yet to fire the rifle because I started to question my caliber. My brother just bought another two thousand rounds of 5.56/223 and my dad has a few thousand rounds and a mini-14. So I started to question myself; "Should I have gotten my Saiga in .223?". There is a gun show this weekend and I may see about swapping my unfired, unconverted x39 for a .223 Saiga. Keep in mind I have started building up my ammo supplies yet.

 

What should I do? Be the odd man out and stockpile x39 or go with the flow of .223? And I have limited funds with my first child on the way so multiple guns in different chamberings are the answer for a bit later down the road after I start my new job in a few months.

[jgillaspy 24]

7.62x39 is cheaper and "harder hitting" at closer ranges, but it dies @ ~450 yds (becomes sub-sonic and "wanders"). In your case, are you and.or the others looking to reload? If so, you will likely be better off using whatever caliber they use (read mooch off of them). The 5.45x39 has similar ballistics as the 223 and can be had for $0.13 / round, delivered, right now. That is as cheap as it gets! Yes the ammo is corrosive, but washing down the bore and action with water will fix that (neutralizes the corrosive salts).

 

Anyway, let us know what you decide....

 

JG

[t3mac21 1]

Stick with the 7.62x39, it's cheap, it's a good round and you'll have an easier time aquiring magazines should you convert your saiga into it's intended configuration.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Keep the x39.

 

Ammo is cheaper.

 

You already have the rifle and will likely lose money on a trade.

 

You can just save up and get a 223 down the road if you wish.

 

 

[vulcan16 971]

I have both 223 and 7.62.

7.62 mags are cheap and plentiful, 223 mags are expensive.

[Sev 0]

At this point reloading doesn't seem to be in the picture but the future is uncertain.

 

I had an AR-15 and just didn't love it as much as I do the AK's so I ended up selling it to my brother.

 

I am only considering one chambered in 5.56 first for the ease of interchanging ammo in a SHTF scenario. But I really want to stick with the x39.

 

 

[tbtravis 0]

I have both 223 and 7.62.

7.62 mags are cheap and plentiful, 223 mags are expensive.

 

Not if you get one of the renegadebuck mag adapters that allows you to use inexpensive AR mags.

[vulcan16 971]

I have both 223 and 7.62.

7.62 mags are cheap and plentiful, 223 mags are expensive.

 

Not if you get one of the renegadebuck mag adapters that allows you to use inexpensive AR mags.

 

Add the cost of the mag adapter+ the number of your mags, and the cost is still much higher then 7.62 mags.

Also add labor for installing the adapter, and the chance of someone FN the installation.

BTW , I usually find Surefire 223 mags for around $20 from a local gun show vendor.

I'll keep it simple and just use AK specific mags.

[PRISONSHANK 70]

I'd vote for keeping the x39.

the shits not gonna hit the fan anytime soon so i wouldn't use that as a reason to have to trade.

You said yourself you got rid of the AR because you like AK's...stick with the real AK then.

Sounds like your fam has extra rifles in 223 you could use anyways if needed.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Still thats a hell of a support structure for 223 ya got there.

Nothing wrong with switching when you have all that available to you, one of the few times I would agree with that trade.

Might want to spend a good while on the 223 board to see what issues exist used to some in that round.

[t3mac21 1]

Support structure? I mean, if they're going to let him shoot all their ammo for free, might as well switch. But it's not like 7.62x39 is expensive.

 

What do you mean by support structure?

 

 

 

I mean look, x39 is pretty cheap, you can stack a lot of it up for a few hundred dollars. I promise the world isn't going to end tomorrow or something so you have plenty of time to stack it up and possibly even aquire a .223 as well. You can buy surplus x39 mags by the box full, they work as long as you have a bullet guide. .223 mags are harder to find, or you could buy an adapter to retrofit AR15 mags.

Edited December 30, 2010 by t3mac21

[Mullet Man 2,114]

If i were you, i'd trade it for a .223, as too keep the 7.62x39 demand down and the supply up for the rest of us.

 

 

You cant go wrong with either one IMO. Do what YOU want!

[RobRez 1,895]

Keep the x39. No doubt! If SHTF the bigger punch is better and I would think there will be at least as much x39 ammo as .223 around after the first wave of Zombies hit. Tons of folks own the affordable AK-47 and it's equally affordable ammo! .223 is for teaching little girls how to shoot.

[stnls1911 55]

Keep the x39. No doubt! If SHTF the bigger punch is better and I would think there will be at least as much x39 ammo as .223 around after the first wave of Zombies hit. Tons of folks own the affordable AK-47 and it's equally affordable ammo! .223 is for teaching little girls how to shoot.

 

 

I got the 7.62x39 because that's the caliber that started it all. Just my preference between the two.

[frankm 0]

I would keep it. Think of it this way, if the SHTF, you have another caliber in case they can't find .223.

[imarangemaster 315]

I like both calibers. My Saiga is 7.62x39. My XM177E2 is 5.56mm and my 1972 vintage Sterling made Armalite AR-180 is 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 with the 124 grain 8m3 Sapsan hollow-point (Wolf Military Classic and Uly "Hunting" load) is the most devastating round available in either caliber. 7.62 is better at barrier penetration, 5.56 better at body armor penetration. If you have a Kalashnikov platform, it should be 7.62x39. If you have an AR, it should be 5.56mm. JMHO

 

FYI, the 55 grain M193 ball is also devastating from an 18-20 inch barrel. In my real life before I retired, I saw really, really dead people - with really big ugly holes in them form M193! As I have said before, Hell is populated with unhappy souls who would dispute the "poodle shooter" moniker given by some to 5.56mm!

Edited January 1, 2011 by imarangemaster

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I like both calibers. My Saiga is 7.62x39. My XM177E2 is 5.56mm and my 1972 vintage Sterling made Armalite AR-180 is 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 with the 124 grain 8m3 Sapsan hollow-point (Wolf Military Classic and Uly "Hunting" load) is the most devastating round available in either caliber. 7.62 is better at barrier penetration, 5.56 better at body armor penetration. If you have a Kalashnikov platform, it should be 7.62x39. If you have an AR, it should be 5.56mm. JMHO

 

FYI, the 55 grain M193 ball is also devastating from an 18-20 inch barrel. In my real life before I retired, I saw really, really dead people - with really big ugly holes in them form M193! As I have said before, Hell is populated with unhappy souls who would dispute the "poodle shooter" moniker given by some to 5.56mm!

I gotta agree the 223 round is not the problem that blasted stoner rifle was always the issue. If I had 2 family members with large stores, re-loading, and firearms in 223 I would damn well be using it just not in an AR. Truth be known if I had it all to do over again Id be all 308 and 30/06 but hey in the end its the man not the tool.

[Salmonking 149]

If money is an issue, you gotta look at it from a financial point of view.

 

5.45x39 is the cheapest, but you gotta put down a bunch of $$$ on ammo when you buy it. It's not going to be cheap forever. Mags are also pretty cheap at the moment.

 

7.62x39 has some of the best quality mags for cheap if you don't mind the metal surps. The ammo is relatively inexpensive, you can reload down the road, and it hits harder at realistic ranges.

 

If you can bum .223 off your family though, go with that. Mags are not the best, and they aren't cheap. If SHTF don't think your gonna go collecting ammo off everyone. In all honesty, you may become a target for people who need to resupply soon. Military, police, and reg. people could see you as walmart.

[paprotective 362]

The 762x39 ammo is cheaper by about $0.75 a box stil at this point vs .223 ammo..

 

I agree 30 cal has more gidde-up and punch vs. 223.. the AK mags are available for $8 each.. the 223 mags are like $20-30..

 

what I did...

 

I bought my 762x39 Saiga (47) last July.. I then bought a 5.45x39 Saiga (74) in February 2010..

 

I then bought the Saiga 308 21" in August of 2010.. I then sold the Saiga 762 & 545 to buy an AR in 308 w/16"..

 

What I figured was 30 cal for penetration, and now I have 2 rifles that can run 762x51 or 308..

 

 

 

Al

[BpS12 512]

Keep it and be your families "Barrier Puncher" not to mention x39 drums are cheap/reliable compared to .223s drums.

 

Esentially, you have a brand new RPK waiting for conversion. If your family is running .223 Carbines, you can be running the SSaSW(Squad Semi-auotmatic Support Weapon). Every "unit" needs one. Even our military has realized that having every member of a unit with the same caliber is NOT condusive to keeping the troops alive and accomplishing the mission.

 

Just a thought,

Edited January 2, 2011 by BpS12

[JK-47 33]

What grain weight of ammo is the fam stocking? the saigas run a 1:9.5 or so twist (its metric) and so will do best with mid weight bullets. Then again every gun makes its own rules as far as what it likes. Are they stocking steel or brass cased? (the saiga will be happy with either- other rifles may not like steel casings). I'd start off with a .223 rifle so you have commonality with the family, and add a 7.62x39mm gun further on down the road.

 

Personaly I'd want a 16" 7.62x39, and a 20" .223, both converted.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Keep it and be your families "Barrier Puncher" not to mention x39 drums are cheap/reliable compared to .223s drums.

 

Esentially, you have a brand new RPK waiting for conversion. If your family is running .223 Carbines, you can be running the SSaSW(Squad Semi-auotmatic Support Weapon). Every "unit" needs one. Even our military has realized that having every member of a unit with the same caliber is NOT condusive to keeping the troops alive and accomplishing the mission.

 

Just a thought,

Your logic is sound like most here but everyone starts with different resources. Most of us started with no real support and were left to our own devices. If he were to go for something to punch holes in cover then skip the 39R and go 308/30-06 its amazing what they do to cinder blocks and other common cover. I like the 39R for its all around functionality and even have a nice leather duster to conceal the Draco. The main thing to avoid is not going the next step and adding a big round to the list.

 

On my list is a Marlin 1895 chambered for 45/70. if its cover you wish to penetrate its almost in the same league with BMG, cheaper, and a lot more portable.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_2.htm

[imarangemaster 315]

In the 223, I use either USGI or IMI 55 Grain M193 ball. It works in everything. It doesn't need to be hollow point to blow up at velocities over 2600 fps, and it is good at penetrating body armor. In the 7.62x39 I have Uly FMJ and Military Classic with the 8m3 124 grain HP for soft target.

[Devil Anse 0]

... .223 is for teaching little girls how to shoot.

 

 

i like this. lol'ing. i have a 20in saiga, it hits so much harder than my buddies AR when we are shooting, he only uses it on paper now. ( His ar punches neat little holes in cinder blocks, the AK vaporizes them with one round.)

[Salmonking 149]

Part of having a gun is shooting said gun enough to get competent with it. 7.62 nato is not cheap, and the guy has a kid on the way.

 

FMJ 223 is more devastating than 7.62x39 FMJ, but soft points and wolf military classic hps are just nasty in 7.62x39. 5.45x39 wanders, but they have some expensive Hornady rounds for it, which are said to do well.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q_JURu8CTY

 

7.62x39 really doesn't get anything out of the longer barrel. It just looks funny, weighs more, and makes it harder to clear tight spaces. Either trade for a 20 inch .223, 16 inch 7.62x39, or a 5.45x39. BTW those 7.62x39 drums may be "cheap", but they are freakin' heavy. Stick with cheap 30s if you go 7.62x39.

 

Buy a 5.45x39 and a shit-load of ammo/mags, OR go with the 7.62x39 in a 16 inch barrel, OR bum ammo off the family with the .223 and save up for mags. .308 is awesome, but between the price of mags and ammo, you will hurt. You ask which one to buy, but you'll probably eventually end up buying multiples. Good luck and congrats on the kid!

 

Edit; fixed video link.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Salmonking

[dobravery 49]

I'll be the odd man out.

 

If you can swap for a .223 straight up/even then consider it. Though x39 ammo is cheaper, it isn't that much cheaper. You father has a ton of it, and with a kid on the way it can be hard to justify spending money on plinking ammo. It would suck if your dad and brother go out, but your all out of x39 and have to borrow their guns to shoot their ammo. The problem is that I don't think a dealer will trade you rifles straight up. You might have better luck trading for a used .223 on the board or at the show. Or you could do a budget conversion of US stock/PG (used) and US fcg (stick with stock mag and no bullet guide)--and trade that for a new .223

 

I have a .223 Saiga that shoots 2moa, so it is not unusual for S223's to hang with AR's and outshoot Mini-14's.

You can get Tapco or Steel Galil mags for under $20.

It would be kind of cool for you and your family to have three different actions pushing .223 rounds.

If your x39 shoots kind of crappy, it will probably shoot all the different imported x39 kind of crappy. With .223, you have a wide array of ammo brands and weights to try to get the most out of your rifle.

 

If money is tight, once you have a kid it is going to be very hard for you to justify to yourself spending money on bricks of ammo.

[imarangemaster 315]

As far as calibers go, I still think the 7.62x39 is superior to 5.56, especially with good ammo like 8m3 stuff. With that said, I don't plan on getting rid of my two Armalites (AR-180 and AR-15). My retro A1 CAR-15 is only 5.7 pounds empty and is a joy to tote, especially with a 20 rounder in it, still less than 6 pounds or so. A very nice light snatch and grab weapon. I

 

f I was going to be crawling through dirt, mud, sand, brush or woods, I would not grab the CAR-15. I would go for the ever reliable AK, or maybe my AR-180 (with its stamped upper and lowers full of room and twin guide rods for a huge bolt carrier group) which is just as tolerant of crap as the AK. It is what the M16 should have been.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

You already have the rifle and will likely lose money on a trade.

 

Well said. I always hear lots of talk about guns being a good investment and such. Yes some people will get lucky during a panic like those who got to sell their WASRs for $850 in late 08, and stuff like NFA guns or historic stuff will of course go up in value. But otherwise guns are typically a losing proposition as far as money is concerned. Every time I've sold one I no longer want, I rarely can get nearly as much as was originally spent on it.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

This back and forth on the whole 223 vs 39R debate is endless. One thing to keep in mind is if it were not for FA operation neither would have ever been used in a modern military weapon. In short its an endless argument.

 

As for 308 in a Stoner rifle I see these on line at Appleseeds and unless the rifle is kept in top notch shape they always give trouble. Royce was of a similar mind in his Gun Bible but held out the hope that someday they would be fixed. I am not so optimistic despite claims to the contrary by some, want to spend that much money may as well go with an M1A at least they have a good track record.

[SovietSurplus 3]

My vote goes to .223

 

Lower recoil, far more effective and various defensive loads, easily reloadable, one of the most common cartridges in America and is going to be much more effective than 7.62x39 at any range due to massive fragmentation.

 

Steel case 223 is just as cheap as steel case 7.62x39. Also, your family seems to already have experience with the round, and a stockpile already. Share and share alike!

 

In the end it's up to you! Enjoy whatever rifle you love!