Over Gassing Guide?

Torqued · January 25, 2011

So i will be picking up my S12 today. As such I have been reading several threads here, and there is one thing that keeps coming up that has me a tad concerned, and that is the topic of "over gassing". I hear alot of folks saying that over-gassing your gun can damage internal parts etc. Is there some guide to help you know if you are over-gassing or not? I have a MDA Plug coming, and I plan to polish my internals etc. But if the gun does not cycle reliably with low brass (or any other for that matter), when do you know your over gassing the gun? Should you expect to have to crank the gas plug all the way up for low brass? Help me out folks

**Cobra 76 two** · January 25, 2011

Most of what you read on here about "over gassing" is total bullshit. It's a gun built to be treated harshly, rode hard and put wet. I've been told that my 19" factory four port 2000 model S-12 is "over gassed". The idiot that told me this thinks this is true just because it is capable of cycling cheap low brass ammo on the #1 gas setting sometimes. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on the ammo. What he doesn't seem to understand is, all of the decent quality S-12s used to be imported with 4 gas ports, and ALL of them can be smoothed up without touching anything in the gas system (puck, plug...nothing), "broken in" if you must use that term, and reach the point where you don't ever have to touch the gas plug if you shoot even half ass quality ammo, and maintain the weapon properly. Anyone who doesn't want to believe me...ask the site owner himself, Makc. Ask any of the old timers around here who have owned MULTIPLE S-12s, and been working on them longer than a couple of years or so. :rolleyes:

Correctly re-profiling and polishing the internals helps a great deal with any S-12, no matter how the gas system is setup. This should be done FIRST...not last after hanging a bunch of junk all over the weapon, putting in an aftermarket trigger group not really made r the S-12, then wondering why it won't cycle well.

If a gun is truly "over gassed", you will know it in a short time. As long as it's not smashing the hell out of the rear block, and deforming the metal around the recoil spring base, it's just fine. It's a Kalashnikov. It's supposed to take some abuse. As long as you don't go opening up the gas ports to a volume that's way over and above what is necessary to cycle the action (with the gas plug on the proper setting), the gun can take it.

It's cheap insurance to pay 12 dollars for a small piece of rubber called a recoil buffer, and place it in gun behind where the bolt carrier bottoms out against the rear block. Some people hate them because they were not designed in Russia. Some people hate them because they can possibly cause cycling issues with some ammo, in some guns. Fact is, they work in a lot of situations, and can be easily removed in seconds if they start to cause problems at the range. I wouldn't want to have anything in my gun that could even remotely be a problem, if using it in a home, or self defense situation. I don't have to worry out that though. I have other guns I can go to in an emergency, that don't have recoil buffers.

Long story short....don't believe the hype. If you really want to learn something about these guns, go back and read the archives here from back in the early days of the site, when it was Makc, and others posting about the guns themselves, and how they work.

THEN read ahead about further developments like re-profiling and polishing the internals to smooth things up and greatly improve performance.

Don't worry too much about the gas system, and whether or not it's over, or under gassed. If it's under gassed, you will know it immediately. It won't even come close to ejecting spent hulls. You can usually tell why with a simple peek inside the gas block, at the ports. If they are all even there (at least three in a 19" gun), and are completely unobstructed by the edges of the hole in the gas block, they should be fine (unless they are undersized, like many are these days). If they are there, unobstructed, and the gun still won't eject spent hulls...you have two choices. Either stop there and send it in for free warranty service (still available at this time... or get the internals polished (or DIY). Only after that should the gas ports even be messed with. If it done by someone who knows what they are doing, you won't ever need to worry about "over gassing".

**MikeD** · January 25, 2011

Most of what you read on here about "over gassing" is total bullshit. It's a gun built to be treated harshly, rode hard and put wet. I've been told that my 19" factory four port 2000 model S-12 is "over gassed". The idiot that told me this thinks this is true just because it is capable of cycling cheap low brass ammo on the #1 gas setting sometimes. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on the ammo. What he doesn't seem to understand is, all of the decent quality S-12s used to be imported with 4 gas ports, and ALL of them can be smoothed up without touching anything in the gas system (puck, plug...nothing), "broken in" if you must use that term, and reach the point where you don't ever have to touch the gas plug if you shoot even half ass quality ammo, and maintain the weapon properly. Anyone who doesn't want to believe me...ask the site owner himself, Makc. Ask any of the old timers around here who have owned MULTIPLE S-12s, and been working on them longer than a couple of years or so.

Correctly re-profiling and polishing the internals helps a great deal with any S-12, no matter how the gas system is setup. This should be done FIRST...not last after hanging a bunch of junk all over the weapon, putting in an aftermarket trigger group not really made r the S-12, then wondering why it won't cycle well.

If a gun is truly "over gassed", you will know it in a short time. As long as it's not smashing the hell out of the rear block, and deforming the metal around the recoil spring base, it's just fine. It's a Kalashnikov. It's supposed to take some abuse. As long as you don't go opening up the gas ports to a volume that's way over and above what is necessary to cycle the action (with the gas plug on the proper setting), the gun can take it.

It's cheap insurance to pay 12 dollars for a small piece of rubber called a recoil buffer, and place it in gun behind where the bolt carrier bottoms out against the rear block. Some people hate them because they were not designed in Russia. Some people hate them because they can possibly cause cycling issues with some ammo, in some guns. Fact is, they work in a lot of situations, and can be easily removed in seconds if they start to cause problems at the range. I wouldn't want to have anything in my gun that could even remotely be a problem, if using it in a home, or self defense situation. I don't have to worry out that though. I have other guns I can go to in an emergency, that don't have recoil buffers.

Long story short....don't believe the hype. If you really want to learn something about these guns, go back and read the archives here from back in the early days of the site, when it was Makc, and others posting about the guns themselves, and how they work.

THEN read ahead about further developments like re-profiling and polishing the internals to smooth things up and greatly improve performance.

Don't worry too much about the gas system, and whether or not it's over, or under gassed. If it's under gassed, you will know it immediately. It won't even come close to ejecting spent hulls. You can usually tell why with a simple peek inside the gas block, at the ports. If they are all even there (at least three in a 19" gun), and are completely unobstructed by the edges of the hole in the gas block, they should be fine (unless they are undersized, like many are these days). If they are there, unobstructed, and the gun still won't eject spent hulls...you have two choices. Either stop there and send it in for free warranty service (still available at this time... or get the internals polished (or DIY). Only after that should the gas ports even be messed with. If it done by someone who knows what they are doing, you won't ever need to worry about "over gassing".

I have to totally disagree. Just pulling the trigger and seeing if it cycles doesn't tell you much. What kind of scientific and engineering testing have you done to confirm what your saying? Because my true testing of such type tells a totally different story. That and the gun I had that tore itself to peices after around 4000 rds. Yes, your avarge shooter will probably never put that through their gun and will likely never have issues but it doesn't change the facts and neither do your opinions. Our FA 12 just broke a firing pin at over 15000 rounds. The before mentioned gun broke it at 3000 rounds and the reoil spring guide rod at 4000, with one nasty rear trunnion and hammer and carrier damage. Our FA with 15,000 rds has zero rear trunnion deformation and it is a hot gun that will cycle low brass on the 1 setting of a factory plug... If I left that crappy ass factory plug in I am 100% positive our FA would have a totally different life story...

I would really like to see yours or everyone's data to support an over gassed condition doesn't exist. Because I have pages upon pages of technical data from testing to say otherwise. Surely your writing down all this hard core testing data your compling right? or are you just trying to keep it up stairs. Are you factoring in the outside temperature, how about the ammo (powder) temperature and the gun temperature, humidity levels? There is so much that really goes into the equation that it would make your head spin... I promise it's a hell of a lot more than lets pull the trigger and see if it cycles... A hell of a lot...

**vinnivanhood** · January 25, 2011

I actually drilled two additional gas ports forming an X

and later went back and opened all five up, and I'm still

not over-gassed, actually it still wont cycle that $4.96

stuff, but it never fails with anything high brass, so

cheapest for me right now is the $10.97 #4 federal high

brass, and there's no damage to anything except what I

point at :smoke: Theres just so many factors but so many

ways to tune and adjust and so many options of how to!

~wow I just had an I :wub: my S12 moment, big time!~

-V.V.H.-

**purduepurdy** · January 25, 2011

This might be a silly question but can a rear buffer be created that is cheap plastic that would prevent the trunion from hitting. Would be nice to just visually inspect it / clean it / replace it during regular cleaning. Would fix the issue and dampen any overgassing.

**vinnivanhood** · January 25, 2011

"...after around 4000 rds.",.. "Our FA 12 just broke a firing pin at over 15000 rounds.",.."..Our FA with 15,000 rds has zero rear trunnion def...."..

Hey, is it just me or does that just sound like fun?!

especially FA with tons of drums and other "stuff"!!!

but I thought the factory firing pins seemed inadequate

to begin with and switched to the Tromix one, figured

this way I've got the original as a spare.

Edited January 25, 2011 by vinnivanhood

Torqued · January 25, 2011

So would you say that you should always run the gun on the lowest gas setting that allows for good reliablity? Given im using an MDA plug, is there any ammo that routinely requires the max gas setting, or is it an indication of a problem if I need to crank it all the way up?

**Cobra 76 two** · January 25, 2011

Mike can you please post up all your "scientific data" then, and share it with all of us?

No I don't take the barometric pressure into account either when I go shooting. I don't do modifications to my weapons like making them FA either. I was talking about your average Joe, with an unmodified S-12 right out of the box. Are you trying to say those are ever overgassed...ever??? I've sure never seen or heard of one, and I've come here every day for 6 yrs or more now. Show me. If you disagree with something I say, please show me what is wrong with it, without any condescending tones, and stay ON TOPIC. I'm always open to new information. I just hate seeing some people around here, who haven't even owned an S-12 (or ANY AK) more than a little while, or even belonged to any gun forums before they just joined this one in the past couple of years, go around spouting BS like they are all knowing...all seeing. We ALL have our different ideas and different approaches with things. Nobody is always "right" about everything. We are ALLOWED our own opinions.

If you want to argue logistics.... ok....so you disagree totally with all I said. What exactly? (based on a factory S-12, unmodified...not your FA toys) All I have to go by, just like you, is my own personal experience with my own guns. I only have half a dozen or so, and mine aren't SBS or FA modified. So you are saying the recoil spring rod broke...been there done that, fixed it with spare parts laying around. Firing pin...check....how many of those did you see breaking til just the past few years? Did that happen because your gun was over gassed? Or was it a newer model gun that was built with less quality control, worn out tooling at the plant, and could have possibly been an inferior part?

Why was the gun "overgassed"? Did you modify the gas system in any way?

You say it "beat itself apart"? What happened? The rivets came loose? Where are the pictures? Show us a video. You put up some proof. If there are certain runs of S-12s floating around out there that were made so shitty they have the potential to beat themselves apart, please share that information with the public. No...most people won't put 4,000 rounds through one S-12. My first one (the one with the JB weld on it that some people still love to tease about...lol) probably has at least that, and it's "overgassed" according to a certain member here. It's not falling apart. Oh wait! maybe it's only because I have used a blackjack buffer in it through most of that....nahhh...doubt it. It's more likely because the majority of those rounds were cheap low brass...the ammo that most people use in these guns most often. If I wanted to run high brass all the time, I would put my Gunfixr plug in it.

Post edited in attempt to have a move civil, "grown up" discussion, and keep it more technical....less personal. Something this whole forum could benefit from. Let's respect the OP and don't ruin his thread with personal issues.

**Cobra 76 two** · January 25, 2011

This might be a silly question but can a rear buffer be created that is cheap plastic that would prevent the trunion from hitting. Would be nice to just visually inspect it / clean it / replace it during regular cleaning. Would fix the issue and dampen any overgassing.

Yes there is already a part made for this. It looks like this....

http://www.saiga-12....il.asp?prod=BJB

Good thread about it here...

http://forum.saiga-1...p?showtopic=274 (be sure and check out post #19)

So would you say that you should always run the gun on the lowest gas setting that allows for good reliablity? Given im using an MDA plug, is there any ammo that routinely requires the max gas setting, or is it an indication of a problem if I need to crank it all the way up?

Yes, this is the suggested method in the owners manual. I can't comment on the second part because I use a different plug.

Here's some more required reading from the early days....

http://forum.saiga-1...p?showtopic=262

These kind of posts are what I was talking about earlier. Everyone should read the older posts on the forum. It's not just a bunch of outdated info like some think. There have been many many improvements made over the years, and new things learned. Still we all should be aware of what got us there IMO.

**MikeD** · January 25, 2011

Mike can you please post up all your "scientific data" then, and share it with all of us?

No I don't take the barometric pressure into account either when I go shooting. I don't do modifications to my weapons like making them FA either. I was talking about your average Joe, with an unmodified S-12 right out of the box. Are you trying to say those are ever overgassed...ever??? I've sure never seen or heard of one, and I've come here every day for 6 yrs or more now. Show me. If you disagree with something I say, please show me what is wrong with it, without any condescending tones, and stay ON TOPIC. I'm always open to new information. I just hate seeing some people around here, who haven't even owned an S-12 (or ANY AK) more than a little while, or even belonged to any gun forums before they just joined this one in the past couple of years, go around spouting BS like they are all knowing...all seeing. We ALL have our different ideas and different approaches with things. Nobody is always "right" about everything. We are ALLOWED our own opinions.

If you want to argue logistics.... ok....so you disagree totally with all I said. What exactly? (based on a factory S-12, unmodified...not your FA toys) All I have to go by, just like you, is my own personal experience with my own guns. I only have half a dozen or so, and mine aren't SBS or FA modified. So you are saying the recoil spring rod broke...been there done that, fixed it with spare parts laying around. Firing pin...check....how many of those did you see breaking til just the past few years? Did that happen because your gun was over gassed? Or was it a newer model gun that was built with less quality control, worn out tooling at the plant, and could have possibly been an inferior part?

Why was the gun "overgassed"? Did you modify the gas system in any way?

You say it "beat itself apart"? What happened? The rivets came loose? Where are the pictures? Show us a video. You put up some proof. If there are certain runs of S-12s floating around out there that were made so shitty they have the potential to beat themselves apart, please share that information with the public. No...most people won't put 4,000 rounds through one S-12. My first one (the one with the JB weld on it that some people still love to tease about...lol) probably has at least that, and it's "overgassed" according to a certain member here. It's not falling apart. Oh wait! maybe it's only because I have used a blackjack buffer in it through most of that....nahhh...doubt it. It's more likely because the majority of those rounds were cheap low brass...the ammo that most people use in these guns most often. If I wanted to run high brass all the time, I would put my Gunfixr plug in it.

Post edited in attempt to have a move civil, "grown up" discussion, and keep it more technical....less personal. Something this whole forum could benefit from. Let's respect the OP and don't ruin his thread with personal issues.

I will elaborate more. I don't have quite the time right now, it will be a little indept. Note the gun with 4000 rds was a 2007 stock 19 inch with 4 ports and a factory plug that's position would allow low brass to operate on the 1 setting. This gun was semi-auto, non- converted, and I have never had to enlarge a port on any gun, also the very, very most of those 4000 rds were in fact low brass... You don't remember when the factory position of the plugs changed? It was the same time these guns started operating low brass on factory 1 and the same time fire pins started breaking. Also for your reference a FA gun doesn't change the funtion of the gun as much as you might think. If anything the action is slower because on the return it has to overcome the auto sear. The ejction will be the same speed and force as a semi-auto gun though... Yes, there is alot of good old info here... But do to certain changes over the years some of it is just that, old and outdated. I think you might be implying this is personal with me for you. Not as much as your beefs with me I'm sure. This has nothing to do with personal issues between us. It is simply you are wrong and your "opinions" are far from facts. Opinions don't mean crap unless your discribing your favorite color or food. In this field opinions are worthless and facts are everything.

**Cobra 76 two** · January 25, 2011

Unlike some people (I'm not referring to you), all my opinions have been based on personal experience with the guns I own....not what I've read from others stating their opinions. Nobody has to take anything they read here as gospel. Opinions can change as more experience is gained, or more facts become available. No, I haven't done much testing with the lesser quality guns built since they started screwing things up at the factory. I have steered far clear of them, and suggested others do to. Fact is though, that's what's flooding the market now so more actual info about their finer points and weaknesses, need to be made public knowledge. What I'm saying we don't need, is people who don't know a damn thing about what they are talking about spouting fictitious information about the older guns that a lot of us have also. I am not afraid to be wrong sometimes, it's how we learn. If there are actually guns on the market that are "over gassed" right out of the box, then it's the first I have heard of it obviously, and I stand partially corrected. That said, it sounds to me like the gun itself isn't the problem, it's the gas plug being out of spec. There are enough after market gas plugs on the market nowadays where that should not be a problem. The rest of the problems caused by inferior factory parts...well not much we can do about that but keep making more improved replacment parts....such as Tom's new HD gas pistons (op rods). "Over gassed" is a term which I personally think of as something to do with the actual ports themselves. From what I've seen, most of them are actually under gassed if anything, due to the shitty quality control at Izmash in the past few years.

As far as who's got the biggest personal problem with whom...that can only be settled by actual one on one communication Mike. I have tried repeatedly. I think it's ridiculous to keep letting 4 or 5 year old problems go on getting worse, when a simple phone call between two old friends would be all it took to get back on the same page. If we lived close enough I'd buy you a beer..or a few of em...and we would undoubtedly end up laughing at some things that have been blown out of proportion for far too long now. How bout it?

**skiboatsp** · January 25, 2011

Cobra can't stand for anyone to disagree with him :lolol:

Fumes · January 25, 2011

Cobra can't stand for anyone to disagree with him

Sounds like a serious "Over gassing" problem. :lolol:

**Cobra 76 two** · January 25, 2011

Cobra can't stand for anyone to disagree with him

Sounds like a serious "Over gassing" problem.

And along come the children...with their usual helpful information and trolling. Thanks y'all...luv you too! :haha:

**skiboatsp** · January 25, 2011

Cobra can't stand for anyone to disagree with him

Sounds like a serious "Over gassing" problem.

And along come the children...with their usual helpful information and trolling. Thanks y'all...luv you too!

That's a very grown up response!! You've got to take somethings with a grain of salt. We meant no harm....luv ya too :super:

**jdtravers** · January 25, 2011

I have an over gassing problem if I eat too much Mexican Food, especially the re-fried beans. Don't have any scientific data to support it but I find I can regulate the release by how much I raise my butt cheek in the chair. I don't know if this helps, just my .02 worth.

Jack

**6500rpm** · January 25, 2011

FWIW-It's my "opinion" that it's better to be over gassed in terms of port size (to a point) and have the ability to tune down with an inexpensive quality gas plug than it is to be under-gassed and have to make gas port modifications for someone who has limited experience with the platform or limited mechanical ability. Odds are these days that you're going to have a better chance at the gun being under-gassed (at least until the gun gets the round count up and parts wear in and clearance out) than over-gassed based on posts over the last few years. The biggest mistake commonly made is running mixed rounds without changing the gas setting on the plug. What is a proper setting to run bird shot will be typically over-gassed running slugs. A few years back I ran a bunch of mixed rounds through one of Mike's beta drums and managed to do the damage you see in the pic in as little as 50 slugs on a early 4 port gun. The gun still runs like a swiss watch, but that is the face of over-gassed. That damage would not have happened if the gas plug were set to the correct setting for the round used (but I had bird, buck, and slugs mixed in the same drum and just burned through it because it was fun). In simple terms, just use the minimum setting it takes to cycle the round you're using and you'll be fine. Over-gassed is subjective to a lot of factors.

Edited January 26, 2011 by 6500rpm

**nattyiceking** · January 26, 2011

For what it's worth, I plan on putting well over 4000 rounds through my S12, this bitch aint going nowhere no time soon! :smoke:

**evlblkwpnz** · January 26, 2011

Alarmingly often :rolleyes: .... people here spew and regurgitate the phrase "Your 'gun' is overgassed". Is 'overgassing' a widespread plague for Saiga 12 owners? I would like to see some pics of Saiga 12 trunnions that were damaged while the weapon was ran with the regulator on the appropriate setting. As many allegedly overgassed S12 as there are floating around, there should be an abundance of pics to post. "Gassers" (like truthers, birthers, etc.).... post them if you have them.

**zenman223** · January 26, 2011

Many would say my gun is overgassed as I added a 4th port and drilled them out one size bigger than factory specs,(5/64 I think??) but Im happy with it b/c i did everything else i could first and it wouldnt cycle reliably until then. Now it runs anything and i have no damage as of yet b/c i adjust the gas fxr befor i change loads. I think it is better to be alittle overgassed. But that is only my opinion and i could be wrong, i just know that even with 4 ports opened up to factory spec it wouldnt run reliably.

**evlblkwpnz** · January 26, 2011

Many would say my gun is overgassed as I added a 4th port and drilled them out one size bigger than factory specs,(5/64 I think??) but Im happy with it b/c i did everything else i could first and it wouldnt cycle reliably until then. Now it runs anything and i have no damage as of yet b/c i adjust the gas fxr befor i change loads. I think it is better to be alittle overgassed. But that is only my opinion and i could be wrong, i just know that even with 4 ports opened up to factory spec it wouldnt run reliably.

:eek: OMG!!!!! You weapon is overgassed!!!!! Don't fire another round or the trunnion will disintegrate. You need a 15X spring, a piece of car tire jammed in there, and a few rubber bands going from the sling loop on your handguard to your charging handle.

Oooops.... I forgot.... Saiga 12s come with a GAS REGULATOR. As long as you use the GAS REGULATOR properly, you should be fine. Silly me. Carry on....

Fumes · January 26, 2011

Big J what ya'lls got thar is one o them jaw rippin Sags. Very dangerus. :lolol:

**Cobra 76 two** · January 26, 2011

Ahhh how refreshing. So I'm not the only one here that is sick to death of hearing how "over gassed" these guns are.

PICS...show pics....pics don't lie. Where are all these thousands of over gassed S-12s?

Mark I've got pics of my rear block (or trunnion), and the tail of my bolt stem, that look much worse than that from what I remember. Had to beat the snot out of the recoil spring base to get it out so I could remove the dust cover. That gun also still runs like a raped ape...on everything..and yes, even sometimes on birdshot on the #1 setting. The gun is not over gassed though. It would not have gotten beat up like that if I had not made the noobie mistake of putting a bunch of magnums through it on the #2 setting. It was so damned fun I didn't realize how much it was beating up the gun and my shoulder...lol...til the next day.

**6500rpm** · January 26, 2011

Shit happens...

**evlblkwpnz** · January 26, 2011

+1 Cobra

Tired of hearing it.... we need a poll. Something like this....

Question: Are you sick to fucking death of hearing "Your 'gun' is overgassed"?

Answer 1- No, my weapon is overgassed.

Answer 2- Hell yeah!!!

Answer 3- I thought you'd never ask! (I like this one!!!)

Answer 4- No, your weapon is overgassed.

Here it is from my view.....

Question- My BHO spring slipped off. How do I get it back on?