Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Now that the saiga is on it's way to be banned from importation, how feasible is it to make a saiga clone with 100% american parts? Since Arsenal makes American made AKs out in Los Vegas and PTR makes G3 clones in Conneticut, couldn't a company make a Saiga clone in a similar fashion? If someone can make a suppressor for a shotgun surly someone can clone a Saiga. Any thoughts? Edited January 31, 2011 by Crusader Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bean.223 365 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 My thoughts are around $1600 + Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergun10 125 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Honestly, I would much prefer the Russian made Saiga/Vepr 12 to an American version any day. Also, Arsenal AK's are not American made. They are either Russian or Bulgarian made with the correct number of American made parts added to make them 922r compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 My thoughts are around $1600 + You think? I mean, yeah, if someone small did it, it may, but the Remmy 1100 isn't close to $1600.00 & the S-12's of a far simpler design... However, Kalashnikov & Izhmash do hold a few patents. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Now is the time to start figuring this out. Obviously the demand is there and there is money to be made. An industry exsist to tool up and build these things thanks to this community and buisness sponsors. The inhibiting factor has always been the cheep imports, but now that the end is in sight, now is the time for industry to prepare to clone a saiga or even do an agreement with the patent holder to build them here. Who ever jumps on this first will no doubt make a lot of money in the long run. The early bird gets the worm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I think the main issue, as already stated, would be labor costs. I am sure any half decent machine shop could hog out gas blocks, trunion, etc. and a shotgun barrel is far easier to make than a rifle one. Plenty of companies already make US AK receivers so an S-12 receiver would be simple too. However the gun would likely come to a very high price after you factor in labor costs. As a plus side, there would be no 922r to deal with and it could come in a standard configuration. However that may also be a downside as half the fun and appeal of these is the customization. I mean, yeah, if someone small did it, it may, but the Remmy 1100 isn't close to $1600.00 & it's of a far simpler design... Yes, but the Remington 1100 is in far more common use, and has several competitors to keep its prices in check. If a single company were making S-12s here in the USA, I'd expect that the prices would be very high for not only labor costs but also market advantage. Edited January 31, 2011 by Classy Kalashnikov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think the main issue, as already stated, would be labor costs. I am sure any half decent machine shop could hog out gas blocks, trunion, etc. and a shotgun barrel is far easier to make than a rifle one. Plenty of companies already make US AK receivers so an S-12 receiver would be simple too. However the gun would likely come to a very high price after you factor in labor costs. As a plus side, there would be no 922r to deal with and it could come in a standard configuration. However that may also be a downside as half the fun and appeal of these is the customization. I think anyone who knows the history of combat shotguns and our capricious nanny state will think long and hard before investing in the tooling to make something that the BATF might ban at the stroke of a discretionary pen. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Cadiz Gun Works already makes the AOW Saiga 12 with a virgin receiver. Not sure how much more would be involved just making it into a longer, non-NFA setup. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think the main issue, as already stated, would be labor costs. I am sure any half decent machine shop could hog out gas blocks, trunion, etc. and a shotgun barrel is far easier to make than a rifle one. Plenty of companies already make US AK receivers so an S-12 receiver would be simple too. However the gun would likely come to a very high price after you factor in labor costs. As a plus side, there would be no 922r to deal with and it could come in a standard configuration. However that may also be a downside as half the fun and appeal of these is the customization. I think anyone who knows the history of combat shotguns and our capricious nanny state will think long and hard before investing in the tooling to make something that the BATF might ban at the stroke of a discretionary pen. Not really!! The most that the idiot Eric Holder can do is classify the Saiga clones as a Title II Destructive Device. If my understanding is correct, this only means $200.00 extra money for the tax, paperwork and a little more time. This is already the case with those of you that have purchased SBS and SBRs. Therefore, a DD Saiga clone should not be a show stopper. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Not really!! The most that the idiot Eric Holder can do is classify the Saiga clones as a Title II Destructive Device. If my understanding is correct, this only means $200.00 extra money for the tax, paperwork and a little more time. NFA Classification is no joke. The process is drawn out, and even if it is legal in your state, it is at the discretion of your local LEO. Many people in NFA-legal states have Chiefs/Sheriffs who simply will not sign on NFA items. The alternative to LEO signature is trust/corp, but let's face it, it seems like a pain in the ass to have to set all that up just to be able to own a gun. Also NFA stuff has to get transferred through special types of FFLs, and crossing state lines with them becomes a big issue. It would still allow the enthusiast who REALLY wants an S-12 to go ahead and do a trust/CLEO, but remember for every enthusiast are ten other guys that would have bought an S-12 but instead just say "meh, no thanks" to NFA paperwork. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Not really!! The most that the idiot Eric Holder can do is classify the Saiga clones as a Title II Destructive Device. If my understanding is correct, this only means $200.00 extra money for the tax, paperwork and a little more time. NFA Classification is no joke. The process is drawn out, and even if it is legal in your state, it is at the discretion of your local LEO. Many people in NFA-legal states have Chiefs/Sheriffs who simply will not sign on NFA items. The alternative to LEO signature is trust/corp, but let's face it, it seems like a pain in the ass to have to set all that up just to be able to own a gun. Also NFA stuff has to get transferred through special types of FFLs, and crossing state lines with them becomes a big issue. It would still allow the enthusiast who REALLY wants an S-12 to go ahead and do a trust/CLEO, but remember for every enthusiast are ten other guys that would have bought an S-12 but instead just say "meh, no thanks" to NFA paperwork. I think that this is the reallity that we face. I am just amazed that it took the BATF this long to pull this stunt since they don't need to go through the legislature. We used to joke on this forum about the Saiga becomming a DD on April fools day. Now we know that it will actually happen. The only question now is how do we continue our passion once it does happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 but now that the end is in sight err is it? Don't see how you figure that unless I missed something (which happens so I wouldn't be shocked) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrmallek 53 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 PRICE = DEMAND / SUPPLY Homegrown will be expensive - at least to start. Good thing is there's a heck of a lot of good tinkering shops that do utmost precision and craft. It could be fun to watch the artisan market pop. God bless Mikhail and Izhmash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 PRICE = DEMAND / SUPPLY Homegrown will be expensive - at least to start. Good thing is there's a heck of a lot of good tinkering shops that do utmost precision and craft. It could be fun to watch the artisan market pop. God bless Mikhail and Izhmash Maybe we can even watch a "Son of Gun" episode on the manufacture of a Saiga clone. This won't be easy, but it can be done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrmallek 53 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 PRICE = DEMAND / SUPPLY Homegrown will be expensive - at least to start. Good thing is there's a heck of a lot of good tinkering shops that do utmost precision and craft. It could be fun to watch the artisan market pop. God bless Mikhail and Izhmash Maybe we can even watch a "Son of Gun" episode on the manufacture of a Saiga clone. This won't be easy, but it can be done. This can totally be done: We can even get lightweight hi strength alloys in the process of building trunnions or - someone mills the receiver out of a block of hi strength alloy, we have the best barrel makers in the world here in the Good Ole US of A, fine folks here have already built and sell gas tube assemblies. This whole worry is mute - how much could it be for a block of billet alum. and some time on a buddy's cnc sorry I fell asleep and was dreaming of when we did make stuff in this country 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 If labor is one of the major issues........I volunteer to run the machines for minimum wage (with a bonus of two free S12's). I'm only working part time right now, I can swing it. Of course, I'll need to be trained to run said machines, because I've been known to destroy household appliances without even trying. Don't let me near your blender or toaster. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyAughtSix 101 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 IS the BATFE's ruling going to fix the economy? Think of all the jobs that will be created due to vendors on thisvery site needing a bigger operation. I wonder how concerned Izmash would be with the whole patent thing. Could do them a favor as they wouldn't need to ipmort/"convert" before they ship over and the cost of transportation, a $20 a weapon royalty wouldn't be too bad. In the end, I'm sure as fuck they don't care how the moeny is made just as long as they get. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Cadiz Gun Works already makes the AOW Saiga 12 with a virgin receiver. Not sure how much more would be involved just making it into a longer, non-NFA setup. Bolts, bolt carriers and trunnions.Those items are forged I believe and would require a massive investment in tooling. Springfield Armory Inc tried to make a business using the tens of thousands of USGI surplus M14 bolts(and other parts) and when they ran out of those parts tried casting their own. This caused an M1A to go from being a $600 rifle to a $1500 and they are still inferior in quality and durability to their earlier production. Heck it took them the entire 1990s to make a bolt and oprod that wouldn't go grenade until they got away from simple casting methods. This is a multimillion dollar project and the fact that there are only 60,000 S12s in private hands to date does not promise the kind of numbers needed for that kind of investment to be profitable. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Best bet would be to build up from demilled or virgin parts kits and a U.S. barrel, receiver, and compliance parts. With that said, as far as low cost, do you know what the general reputation of the Golani is. Building an AK isn't really hard at all, but to mass produce seems to be a problem to get both quality and low cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 If we can suppress a shotgun then we can build a saiga clone. It will start of expensive and even have quality issues like the early HK clones, but over time they will improve and the price will slowly come down. All we need to make it happen is: 1. People interested in Saigas. 2. Inovative buisness sponsors that love to solve tech problems. 3. An anti-constitutional gov agency that can step in and ban the cheep imports that have been preventing the saiga clone. This senerio is starting to play out that is the perfect formula for a Saiga clone. The only questions are who will be the first and who will make the best ones? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 They already make a pump gun similar to the Saiga. Its just a matter of adding a gas system to make it semi. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjrivero 50 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 If PUSH comes to SHOVE, there are already "American Made" Saiga Receivers. Have you seen the AOW that Juggs was shooting at the "pit?" In order to be an AOW, it needs to be a "Virgin Receiver" that has NEVER had a STOCK attached to it. The only issue would be getting the "kits" imported, and if the shotguns are banned, I'm sure the kits would start showing up rather quickly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xbmxxx 5 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Im so glad I decided to order an s12 the day before all this happened. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darko 42 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Im so glad I decided to order an s12 the day before all this happened. before what happened? what did I miss??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Im so glad I decided to order an s12 the day before all this happened. before what happened? what did I miss??? Izhmash ran out of vodka for their employees to drink while they made S12's, so they're not making them anymore, until they stock back up on liquor. Crazy, right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) As nice as it would be to have a US-made Saiga-12, it would be extremely difficult and expensive to produce. Barrels aren't going to be cheap, especially if they are going to be chrome-lined. The bolt carrier and bolt assembly will cost an arm, a leg, another arm, and two more legs to produce - if these can be imported and the Russians are willing to cooperate, it suddenly becomes much less of a problem. All the little springs, pins and plungers can probably still be imported from Izhmash. We're already set for receivers (if they're willing to make AK54R receivers, NDS ought to make S-12 receivers if there's a market), barrels are doable but expensive, gas blocks are available. One thing that could potentially suck a giant pile of ass - after massive investment in tooling and parts, ATF decides this new US-made weapon that takes US-made high-capacity magazines is non-sporting and therefore a DD. Edited February 2, 2011 by Shandlanos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 the current secret (well till i just opened my mouth) 100% US made shotgun prototype was rejected as too expensive. I will note it was a milled design, and this was before any of this BATF bullshit started. no further information will become available, and I will also state that the people that were involved do not participate in this forum, nor were any of them ever sponsors here. if they do what they did with the striker shotgun, then i cannot see a US made one being produced, as the market for it would be so small, there wont be much profit in it. i think thats enough information and is still vague enough to answer this thread's main question and not piss anyone off with a little information leak. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 the current secret (well till i just opened my mouth) 100% US made shotgun prototype was rejected as too expensive. I will note it was a milled design, and this was before any of this BATF bullshit started. no further information will become available, and I will also state that the people that were involved do not participate in this forum, nor were any of them ever sponsors here. if they do what they did with the striker shotgun, then i cannot see a US made one being produced, as the market for it would be so small, there wont be much profit in it. i think thats enough information and is still vague enough to answer this thread's main question and not piss anyone off with a little information leak. Unfortunately, this might actually be the end of the Saiga. The last ditch effort will be a law suit to the constitutionality of the part of the 1968 gun bill that gives the Attorney General the authority to ban so called "non-sporting shotguns." Even if we won the case, so much time would pass that the damage would be done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 the current secret (well till i just opened my mouth) 100% US made shotgun prototype was rejected as too expensive. I will note it was a milled design, and this was before any of this BATF bullshit started. I wonder why the went with a milled design. I'd assume stamped would be cheaper, and it obviously holds up just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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