busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) What people seem to keep overlooking is the importability status... ONLY 200. Sure, anyone can have something hacked up and welded that may look like the 030 and play better. But you still don't have an original. I don't get why people are trying to directly compare aftermarket S-12s to the .030 import. It doesn't make any sense. If it's too much money for you, that's ok. No one is forcing you to spend it... Why hate? Excuse me! Sure, anyone can have something what may look like the 030 and play better. And where pray tell is this hacked up and welded 030 you speak of? Any one can have one? Anyone can have a working hinged top cover? Anyone can have real removable AK furnature and gas tube? Don't you know legion hacks up and welds many of their own guns. Edited February 19, 2011 by saigatechusa Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? All of a sudden? They have been working on this deal for probably 2-3 years If they do drop to $500 I guess the 108-109 will go for $100 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? All of a sudden? They have been working on this deal for probably 2-3 years If they do drop to $500 I guess the 108-109 will go for $100 You never know! A lot of people doubted me when I said that MD20 drums would go on sale more than once. I got mine for well under $120 . I got time on my side. Unlike those who cant, I can wait. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? All those non standard add-on factory parts that the 030 has are not free or cheap to make at the factory. Someone isn't going to snap their fingers and turn a $1500 gun into $500. That $1500 isn't an inflated price either, the price was set in stone around November of last year before this ATF scare. He seems to have a lot of postings on the subject over at theakforum.net if you want to read it for yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koljec 37 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? Here's how you determine a fair deal: Go to Izhmash's site, here: http://www.izhmash-a...eim/imp/22.html All the Saiga 12 variations are listed. One of the closest to the 030 is the 12K. Izhmash has it listed at $707 to $1010, depending on batch size. Then, check out Legion's Russian site: http://www.legiongun...index.php/price It has price lists in rubles. There, comparable Saiga 12s range from 20,000 to 30,000 rubles (about $690 to 1,030), the more expensive ones share more features with the 030. Then, consider that none of these prices includes import costs or markup. These prices are not coming down. They're not caused by a domestic panic, and this isn't the housing market propped up by government loans on bad risk. The guns are starting high on the manufacturer's end because of low batch size. You might see these guns become more common (albeit without the underside rail), but they'll never be under $1,000 with similar features once they make it to the U.S. I'm making the same bet with this gun that I did with the 308 Ver 21 -- the ver 21 cost a couple hundred more than the more common 308s, but it had nice wood, and the trigger group was factory-forward, solving a common 308 complaint. With the 030, I'm paying to get the features I want while avoiding the trouble of finding parts and a smith for installation. In my neck of the woods, not many people want to take on gas system conversions -- they're expensive, and a lot can go wrong -- and I sure as hell don't want to screw it up. As for the trigger group, it can't be imported any other way. So I'll deal with that one conversion when the time comes. Edited February 19, 2011 by Koljec 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Is a LRBHO really 175? Wow. Not really my thing anyway, it's more of a SKS guy thing than AK, IMO. I think I would like one of these guns tho. JMTC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Lets see! Who says only 200 imported. You pay $1500 and later on down the road market gets flooded. They are down to $500 and there you sit with a $1500 five hundred dollar gun. I lived in AZ from 2006 to 2009 and saw 400k homes sell for 50k when the market dropped like a rock. Here is the million dollar question..... As long as the Saiga has been imported here......why all of a sudden there are 200 that are just magically being imported right after a talk of a import ban? Magazines selling like crack! I mean come on people! Remember when people spread all that BS in 2008 and prices jumped on firearms and ammo.? You aren't familiar with these version 030's are you? Izhmash sells them for $1000 each based on low order volume to anyone interested in buying them. That's Izhmash's price to build the gun, not a US based market price where they started cheap and got inflated due to a ban or rarity. Unless you are buying them in large quantities Izhmash won't even sell them for less than $1000...add in transit costs, import tax, paperwork etc and thats how we get to the $1500 US price. So considering Izhmash won't sell them for less than $1000 period, how are they going to drop to $500 and make you eat the difference? These aren't IZ019 sporters. They have a magwell installed. A hinged top cover (that no other imported Saiga has) and a self regulating gas system TUNED FOR LOW BRASS. This particular version 030 with the gas block rail is already banned by the ATF. It's not conjecture, it's not a guess...they said so themselves. After this batch of 200 there won't be more exactly like this production run. This is a deal over a year in the making. They aren't magically being imported all of a sudden, you just haven't been on the forum that's been discussing this for the past few months. What is it making you think this is a cheap sporter that's being marketed with a jacked up price which will go down in value because the market will be flooded with them? Z Edited February 19, 2011 by TX-Zen 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Huh! So it is really designed for the heavy stuff only! I can see the validity of the design for for law enforcement and military because they will not be using bird shot any way. I think I will just stick to the regular S12. I can see the Version 30 and 40 trying to sell like those FN P90 and 2000 rifles. "So it is really designed for the heavy stuff only!" Not at all. They state in the russian literature the gas system is designed for less than lethal rounds also Already gone round and around with another member about this issue a few months ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 So Ray, how many are you picking up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vitamink 90 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I just want to see if they actually show up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I had a nice email exchange with Brian before I saw the price here. He was very pleasant and I will paraphrase a few things that he mentioned and I hope he doesn't mind. What other people have mentioned here is really true. The unit cost from the factory is very high (he did not give me an exact number . He expressed relief that they were able to keep the price here in the states <$2000 but wish that they could be even cheaper. I am really happy for all those that are able to buy one. I wish I could! However, I realized that I would have to sell 2-3 guns in my small collection to buy even just the base gun (not including any extra mags or work that I would want to do on it). All you who placed an order gets a pat on the back from me. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Excuse me! Sure, anyone can have something what may look like the 030 and play better. And where pray tell is this hacked up and welded 030 you speak of? Any one can have one? Anyone can have a working hinged top cover? Anyone can have real removable AK furnature and gas tube? Don't you know legion hacks up and welds many of their own guns. What are you on about? What I'm saying is, for a price, someone could do an S12 build that looks similar to an 030 and possibly function better. That build may or may not cost the same. But it will never be a 1 of 200 original 030. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mpoppel41 24 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 the only time i remember firearms prices dropping was when the Yugo sks was imported in mass numbers, if you think they will make the same mistake again of flooding the market with an item keep dreaming,, they know how to manipulate the market of keeping supply low and demand high. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
busarider 23 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I could see $1500 if it were in original config with folding stock. You are talking 1500 in import config. I don't think they will be all the rage one would think because of the fact that mag wells are readily available for the S12 anyway. The rest is just a matter of similar disassembly to the AK with the gas tube and such. Nothing that would make it worth that much in my book. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 So Ray, how many are you picking up? I guess enough to make me look really stupid Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) Excuse me! Sure, anyone can have something what may look like the 030 and play better. And where pray tell is this hacked up and welded 030 you speak of? Any one can have one? Anyone can have a working hinged top cover? Anyone can have real removable AK furnature and gas tube? Don't you know legion hacks up and welds many of their own guns. What are you on about? What I'm saying is, for a price, someone could do an S12 build that looks similar to an 030 and possibly function better. That build may or may not cost the same. But it will never be a 1 of 200 original 030. Nothin personal my friend Just after countless hours of designing, programing, machining, fitting and installing some people think one of a kind builds should sell for peanuts 1500.00....I don't think so That's why I will just keepem I would like to see anything similar to a real russian build..............and my hat goes off to them sKot Z evlblkwpnz shannon tac47 anyone? Sorry if I missed someone and sorry for the spelling Edited February 20, 2011 by saigatechusa 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Too rich for my blood, personally. But...........I can't wait to see pics when all you guys get them. It looks like this forum is already putting a dent in the 200 already. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeep297 20 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) It says on Red Dragun's website that this model is "coming soon" as well. Nice looking shotgun IMO Edited February 19, 2011 by Jeep297 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 How would this " coming soon" model work if you wanted it converted? What would need to be done to it to make it legal to have a drum in it? Could it be done and still resemble that picture? I love the wood, it looks great. It seems to me that those of us with " inferior" S12's have more than 1500 in them, so it's not really about the price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 How would this " coming soon" model work if you wanted it converted? What would need to be done to it to make it legal to have a drum in it? Could it be done and still resemble that picture? I love the wood, it looks great. It seems to me that those of us with " inferior" S12's have more than 1500 in them, so it's not really about the price. You're not gonna get a drum to work on a gun with a magwell. As to converting it to PG, it'll be the same process and 922r would apply. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ok no drum, what about 12 rounders. It looks to me that you couldn't use the wood buttstock after conversion. Am I wrong? Would the parts you need to change to be 922 compliant be enough to change the look of the gun or is it still going to look like that pic? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Unfortunately there are no mags for that magwell equipped gun. The 8rd OEM mags that work with that magwell are very hard to come by. And...... U.S. magazines modified to drop free from that magwell will fall out when you shoot magnum shells. The gun would be much more desireable without the magwell. Tony 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ok no drum, what about 12 rounders. It looks to me that you couldn't use the wood buttstock after conversion. Am I wrong? Would the parts you need to change to be 922 compliant be enough to change the look of the gun or is it still going to look like that pic? 12rd stick mags could be made to work. The buttstock will have to go. Here's a handy site to help identify which parts you will/can exchange to remain legal http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I understand that they could work, I guess what I am saying is using these mags would be illegal without 922 compliancy so would making them compliant drasticly change the overall look of the gun? And would making them compliant reduce the value because it would no longer be factory setup? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Unfortunately there are no mags for that magwell equipped gun. The 8rd OEM mags that work with that magwell are very hard to come by. And...... U.S. magazines modified to drop free from that magwell will fall out when you shoot magnum shells. The gun would be much more desireable without the magwell. Tony Tony, Do you know if they rivet the magwells on or if they are screwed on? I guess my real question is, can you remove the well and run regular rock and lock mags? Then, if you wanted, simply screw the well on and use magwell modded mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeep297 20 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I understand that they could work, I guess what I am saying is using these mags would be illegal without 922 compliancy so would making them compliant drasticly change the overall look of the gun? And would making them compliant reduce the value because it would no longer be factory setup? I'm sure you could convert it and still keep the overall look. The only issue would be finding a stock that fits what you want. There are a lot of options out there so I'm sure it could be done though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I understand that they could work, I guess what I am saying is using these mags would be illegal without 922 compliancy so would making them compliant drasticly change the overall look of the gun? And would making them compliant reduce the value because it would no longer be factory setup? Generally doing a PG convesion is desirable (increases value) as it restores the gun to a more correct model. At the same time it is easier to add US parts and improve the feel of the trigger. You really can't go wrong. Do a google search for ironwood designs and you'll see some really nice US wood furniture that you could add. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Would doing so decrease to collectors value of this particular gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) KOTH, That depends. If you buy it for an investment and never take it out of the box, in 20 years maybe it'd be better as it is factory fresh NIB. But if you are looking to shoot some and then sell it sometime in the future, then doing a conversion would most likely add value. Depends on what you do to it, what someone is looking for, and how rare they are/will be. ETA, converting it to be as close to factory original (not in the neutered form it is in now) yet maintaining 922r would be the most desirable to me. Edited February 19, 2011 by sunnybean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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