saiga 12 whats the truth about the ATF ban

[evergreenkid29 14]

Here is a copied quote from a gun shop in Flordia.I have seen this in a few other places. How do we find out the truth???

 

 

update! saiga 12ga shotguns will no-longer be imported as of april of 2011! we can't get these anywhere in the country! this is our last one!

[bigmegina 3]

oh no,please not again.

[L5K 162]

Here's the truth.

 

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. IF ANYTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN, NOBODY HAS HEARD YET.

 

Gun dealers are even more unscrupulous than car salesmen and will use any lie they can think of to jack up the price and make a buck off of you. PERIOD.

[kresk 10,063]

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

Here is a copied quote from a gun shop in Flordia.I have seen this in a few other places. How do we find out the truth???

 

 

update! saiga 12ga shotguns will no-longer be imported as of april of 2011! we can't get these anywhere in the country! this is our last one!

 

You want the truth? You want answers?

 

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!

[magsite20 1,664]

[AJ Dual 43]

Here's the truth.

 

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. IF ANYTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN, NOBODY HAS HEARD YET.

 

Gun dealers are even more unscrupulous than car salesmen and will use any lie they can think of to jack up the price and make a buck off of you. PERIOD.

 

This.

 

Nobody knows.

 

- As imported, Saigas seem to meet the "sporting purposes" criteria as outlined in the report. (No muzzle device, no bayonet lug, no rails, five round magazine, Monte Carlo style stock...)

- OTOH, the ATF can hardly be un-aware of what we're doing with the Saiga's once imported.

- Adding to the confusion, Izhmash had gone Tango-Uniform around Christmastime, and had just recently bought Molot.

- It's unclear if Tula or Bikal would pick up production, or if Izhmash/Molot would come out of whatever passes for bankruptcy/reorganization in Russia and start production again.

 

Izhmash Official Site. http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/

 

Redirect to the "New Izhmash" http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/en

 

The whole situation is clear as mud.

 

If you really want a Saiga, I would personally still pay maybe $600-700 for one, because with the production hiatus, there was going to be a big pause in the U.S. supply anyway.

[inzami 36]

Molot is working already since January and new Vepr shipments recently arrived.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

The sky fell??

[Mephis 82]

There isn't a ban, there won't be a ban, and continuing to think so is nonsense.

 

 

Hell, even at the gunshop where I just got my 308, I talked to them about this nonsense. They agreed, it's a complete joke that everyone is trying to sell saigas at these prices, and pushing them with fear. They can't get ahold of any saiga 12s right now, but if they could, they sure as hell wouldn't be over $600.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Tombs

[Bean.223 365]

 

This comes up yearly don't believe the hype.

[Ned Beatty 39]

The guys in the biz say not to worry, nothings going to happen.

[Mr. Scratch 91]

The guys in the biz say not to worry, nothings going to happen.

 

"The Sky is Falling!" vs. "Whistling in the Graveyard."

[Scatillac 22]

I don't see the big deal. If they're banned, just move to Russia. Pretty simple if you ask me.

[jekbrown 14]

I don't see the big deal. If they're banned, just move to Russia. Pretty simple if you ask me.

 

Looking more an more attractive all the time. I bet I could buy a shitload of acreage in Siberia dirt cheap. Good 4x4'ing land, good shooting land, good hunting land. No liberal pussies, a flat tax rate etc. So long as you don't cross Putin and get taken out in a radiation-weapon assassination or get rich enough that Putin decides to throw you in jail and confiscate your shit, it'd prolly be a sweet place to live....

Edited March 15, 2011 by jekbrown

[Saiga_rom 91]

if you want a saiga 12, then go to atlanticfirearms.com. there are alot of adds for saigas which still have the "add to cart" button which very likely means they still have them in stock

[Mr. Scratch 91]

There isn't a ban, there won't be a ban, and continuing to think so is nonsense.

 

I hope you're right. For myself, I'm not a panic buyer by nature; I campaigned hard among my friends who wanted to go buy guns when Obama got elected to sit their asses down and hold onto their money. The only other time I ever "panic-bought" was within 1/2 hour of seeing the passage of the AWB of 94', when I raced down to buy a Chinese Dragunov before the price got too stupid, which turned out to be a rather smart thing to do on my part, as the price of the gun had virtually doubled within the month.

 

But instead of dismissing the possibility that there might be a problem here out of hand, maybe you should ask yourself why the *B*ATF suddenly found it necessary to issue a "study" on "the importability of certain shotguns" at all if they didn't have a particular target in mind. I don't think they did it for the fun of it, or because they just didn't have anyting else to do.

 

The study was compiled to serve a function. What the function is seems to be open to some debate thanks to the conveniently vague terminology they use, but let's look at a couple of things:

 

A) The main issue that brought on this study seems to have been an imported box-fed shotgun that is capable of accepting 20 round drums. What guns are there that meet this criteria?

 

B.) They made it a point to stress that they were NOT considering 3-gun tournament as a "sport" in their evaluation, presumably because they recognize that the questionable gun is used in such events, and that claims will be made to that effect by the sport's participants. Other than the Saiga, what other imported box-fed semi-auto shotguns used in combat-type matches are there that the BATF might be concerned about?

 

C) Why did they include an image of a converted Saiga (lawfully done with domestic parts, but on an IMPORTED receiver), if not to point out to someone that this is what is being done to these guns, or to perhaps mislead people into thinking they were being imported in this configuration?

 

D) As per the above, why would they include an image of a domestic-made MD20 Saiga drum - an item not even directly covered by sporting-arms importation restriction to begin with - if not to use as an example of forbidden drum-fed shotgun importation? There is a reason why the drum appears there, they didn't just stick the image in to take up space. Somehow this drum must relate to the topic of the study or it wouldn't have been included. What good reason do you suppose they would have include the image of a domestic-made drum in a study that is supposed to relate to imported shotguns?

 

 

Now I know the counter argument is that the studies' definition of a sporting shotgun is such that the imported stock Saiga should be fine. Sure. That would be some reassurance if we were dealing with an agency that actually abided by the letter of the law rather than did whatever it damn well wanted to do. For myself, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the BATF's sense of fairness and goodwill, or scupulousness in keeping within the scope of it's own definitions. I've got some acquaintences who sunk money into the Atkins Accelerator - for those who don't know, it was a stock that basically bounced the receiver of a semi-auto back and forth to simulate full-auto fire. By the letter of the BATF's own regulation, it should have been fine, as the weapon only fired one shot per pull of the trigger. They even sent it to the BATF for examination, and it was apporoved. Only after these guys sunk a bunch of money into it and went into production did the BATF show up at their doors and declare they were selling machineguns. What about the fact that the stock complied with the NFA regs and they had it in writing that the BATF already approved the design? Didn't mean squat; they had changed their minds, they didn't care what the regs said, and they wanted those stocks recovered and destroyed. THAT is who you are dealing with here.

 

Again, I hope I'm wrong on this one. But declaring concern over this issue to be "nonsense" when the agency has already put it in writing and shown around the pictures of the targeted gun in question is going beyond optimism, and is more into ostrich head-in-sand territory.

 

 

Hell, even at the gunshop where I just got my 308, I talked to them about this nonsense. They agreed, it's a complete joke that everyone is trying to sell saigas at these prices, and pushing them with fear. They can't get ahold of any saiga 12s right now, but if they could, they sure as hell wouldn't be over $600.

 

Well, I'm glad the legal scholars Mike and Buford of Blazin' Pistols Attorneys at Law and Gun Shop have weighed in on this. But there are other people more qualified in the legal aspects of this situation that feel otherwise.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Mr. Scratch

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

There isn't a ban, there won't be a ban, and continuing to think so is nonsense.

 

I hope you're right. For myself, I'm not a panic buyer by nature; I campaigned hard among my firends who wanted to go buy guns when Obama got elected to sit their asses down and hold onto their money. The only other time I ever "panic-bought" was within 1/2 hour of seeing the passage of the AWB of 94', when I raced down to buy a Chinese Dragunov before the price got too stupid, which turned out to be a rather smart thing to do on my part, as the price of the gun had virtually doubled within the month.

 

But instead of dismissing the possibility that there might be a problem here out of hand, maybe you should ask yourself why the *B*ATF suddenly found it necessary to issue a "study" on "the importability of certain shotguns" at all if they didn't have a particular target in mind. I don't think they did it for the fun of it, or because they just didn't have anyting else to do.

 

The study was compiled to serve a function. What the function is seems to be open to some debate thanks to the conveniently vague terminology they use, but let's look at a couple of things:

 

A) The main issue that brought on this study seems to have been an imported box-fed shotgun that is capable of accepting 20 round drums. What guns are there that meet this criteria?

 

B.) They made it a point to stress that they were NOT considering 3-gun tournament as a "sport" in their evaluation, presumably because they recognize that the questionable gun is used in such events, and that claims will be made to that effect by the sport's participants. Other than the Saiga, what other imported box-fed semi-auto shotguns used in combat-type matches are there that the BATF might be concerned about?

 

C) Why did they include an image of a converted Saiga (lawfully done with domestic parts, but on an IMPORTED receiver), if not to point out to someone that this is what is being done to these guns, or to perhaps mislead people into thinking they were being imported in this configuration?

 

D) As per the above, why would they include an image of a domestic-made MD20 Saiga drum - an item not even directly covered by sporting-arms importation restriction to begin with - if not to use as an example of forbidden drum-fed shotgun importation? There is a reason why the drum appears there, they didn't just stick the image in to take up space. Somehow this drum must relate to the topic of the study or it wouldn't have been included. What good reason do you suppose they would have include the image of a domestic-made drum in a study that is supposed to relate to imported shotguns?

 

 

Now I know the counter argument is that the studies' definition of a sporting shotgun is such that the imported stock Saiga should be fine. Sure. That would be some reassurance if we were dealing with an agency that actually abided by the letter of the law rather than did whatever it damn well wanted to do. For myself, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the BATF's sense of fairness and goodwill, or scupulousness in keeping within the scope of it's own definitions. I've got some acquaintences who sunk money into the Atkins Accelerator - for those who don't know, it was a stock that basically bounced the receiver of a semi-auto back and forth to simulate full-auto fire. By the letter of the BATF's own regulation, it should have been fine, as the weapon only fired one shot per pull of the trigger. They even sent it to the BATF for examination, and it was apporoved. Only after these guys sunk a bunch of money into it and went into production did the BATF show up at their doors and declare they were selling machineguns. What about the fact that the stock complied with the NFA regs and they had it in writing that the BATF already approved the design? Didn't mean squat; they had changed their minds, they didn't care what the regs said, and they wanted those stocks recovered and destroyed. THAT is who you are dealing with here.

 

Again, I hope I'm wrong on this one. But declaring concern over this issue to be "nonsense" when the agency has already put it in writing and shown around the pictures of the targeted gun in question is going beyond optimism, and is more into ostrich head-in-sand territory.

 

 

Hell, even at the gunshop where I just got my 308, I talked to them about this nonsense. They agreed, it's a complete joke that everyone is trying to sell saigas at these prices, and pushing them with fear. They can't get ahold of any saiga 12s right now, but if they could, they sure as hell wouldn't be over $600.

 

Well, I'm glad the legal scholars Mike and Buford of Blazin' Pistols Attorneys at Law and Gun Shop have weighed in on this. But there are other people more qualified in the legal aspects of this situation that feel otherwise.

 

The people who insist there will definitely be no ban are just as moronic as the people who are burying their saigas in the back yard. No one really knows. It isn't good that the ATF has taken notice but I'm not to worried....

[mike12345 18]

You and you alone are banned from owning a saiga. Never attempt to buy one or the gubberment black helicopters will fly over your house, the police will shoot your dog, and the swat team will buttstroke your grandma.

[Ned Beatty 39]

What dont you folks understand about this, prominent people from within the industry have talked to the ATF, and there is nothing to worry about, the SAIGA 12 isnt going anywhere, do you just want to scare up the value of your guns or what?

 

I gotta wonder about the intelligence of some of you who read things into the study that isn't there.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

An earthquake is gonna happen and reclaim all of your saiga's. They will all fall into the center of the earth and be "converted" back into basic elements and minerals.

[bigmegina 3]

i would like to sell my sagia for $2000.quick buy it while you can.i have inside info from my twice removed brother in laws cousin who is sleeping with the top ATF boss who is already made the decision.he told her not to let it out until the lemmings argue themselves to death.

i have to wonder about the intelligence of some people who think THEY have the correct answer.

Edited March 16, 2011 by bigmegina

[Ned Beatty 39]

I'm just sayin, who you gona listen to, nutzoids with tin hat theories, or the guys who make a living with the firearm?

[Mr. Scratch 91]

I'm just sayin, who you gona listen to, nutzoids with tin hat theories, (...)

 

Tinfoil hat nutzoids like these guys?

 

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2011/01/atf-study-on-the-importability.html

 

http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/28/atf-issues-study-on-the-importability-of-shotguns-is-this-just-the-beginning

 

 

(...) or the guys who make a living with the firearm?

 

I've met some real mouthbreathers who "make a living with the firearm". In fact, the industry is infamous for being chock full of people who like to jawjack about crap they don't know the first thing about. So no, simply making a living at firearms doesn't hold much sway with me in terms of determining someone's factual reliability. On the contrary.

 

What dont you folks understand about this, prominent people from within the industry have talked to the ATF, and there is nothing to worry about, the SAIGA 12 isnt going anywhere

 

What "prominent people"? And what, exactly, have they said?

 

 

I gotta wonder about the intelligence of some of you who read things into the study that isn't there.

 

Hm? Perhaps you're right; I'm a moron for reading things into the report that aren't there. Except, well...they are there. I'd be very interested to hear your theories about why a picture of a converted S12 was included in the report, as well as a domestically-produced MD20 drum. Please explain the inclusion of these two things that are, by your argument, not to be considered in the BATF's application of importation restriction. Seriously. I'd like to know why you think they are there.

 

 

Again, I don't know if the BATF is going to implement an importation ban/DD classification or not. But I do think that sweeping denials that it could happen, and maligning the motives of those who consider it a possibility, is a little out of line.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Mr. Scratch

[Bagelthief 1]

SOOOO....Has anyone actually spoken to any of the IMPORTERS for the Saiga? From what ive heard, there are only two company's that do ALL of the importing for Saiga's. Word is that these two importers HAVE NOT been able to get any more imports approved. Is this Malarkey or truth???

[mike12345 18]

wow.....

 

The study was defining what is and isent a "sporting purpose" (Shotgun) and what is and isent "Suitable for sporting purposes" (shotgun) It was made and posted by the ATF because there wasent a shotgun study. A gun has to be suitable for sporting purposes to be imported.

 

The study dosent, hasent, and wont effect the importation of the saiga. It is imported in the "sporting" configuration with no pistol grip and 5rd magazine. In that configuration it is suitable for sporting purposes as defined by the study and approved for import.

 

The current supply problems are the result of people panic buying because of the ATF study. Its also do to the izhmash plant shutdown. More guns will be imported when more guns are made.

 

Please go read the study.

Edited March 16, 2011 by mike123456

[spicoli 12]

Do any of you edumacated people know if the Streetsweeper or USAS-12 or any other firearm has had a "study" done?

[Bridis 319]

wow.....

 

The study was defining what is and isent a "sporting purpose" (Shotgun) and what is and isent "Suitable for sporting purposes" (shotgun) It was made and posted by the ATF because there wasent a shotgun study. A gun has to be suitable for sporting purposes to be imported.

 

The study dosent, hasent, and wont effect the importation of the saiga. It is imported in the "sporting" configuration with no pistol grip and 5rd magazine. In that configuration it is suitable for sporting purposes as defined by the study and approved for import.

 

The current supply problems are the result of people panic buying because of the ATF study. Its also do to the izhmash plant shutdown. More guns will be imported when more guns are made.

 

Please go read the study.

 

I feel compelled to help here. The words are isn't, wasn't, doesn't and hasn't.

 

Carry on.

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

Do any of you edumacated people know if the Streetsweeper or USAS-12 or any other firearm has had a "study" done?

 

This is what makes me pause. They aren't doing a study for no reason. And I said before, NO ONE knows for sure. Not any of us, no one in the industry, NO ONE. The only people who know for sure are the ATF guy(s) who are going to make the decision.

 

Until they do, why bother talk about it? Waste of time.

[Dandiesel 16]

um actually, Arsenal, Inc. of Las Vegas, NV has imported more saiga 12's and they are hiting the market now...... Atlantic Firearms already has some for sale........other dealers to follow . So stop your bitchin and buy one if you were so worried about it.......:dollar:l they are a little more expensive now, but thats what you get for being a part of the BIG ATF SCARE!!!! not ban lol ... I hate it when people ask about the atf ban., its not a ban, its a study.lol apparently those words are interchangeable.